2018-19 Blaze King Performance Thread Part 1 (Everything BK)

[sprawlnstall]

Visible smoke has always been a big deal to most and it should be a big deal to everyone! The visible smoke is illegal and punishable by a fine of 1000$ for the first offense if it is over a certain low density at the stack and lasts for more than some ridiculously short amount of time like 5 minutes after reload/kindle. Neighbors think you are a polluting redneck if they see smoke and we all know that smoke is wasted fuel. Not unlike "rolling coal" from our diesel trucks.

The burden is on the operator to prove that it is steam and you will be trying to convince a snowflake idiot who has the authority to write that 1000$ ticket.

Is this a city ordinance or a state law?

 

[Highbeam]

Is this a city ordinance or a state law?

Many parts of many states have similar rules. In my case it is the entire Puget sound region and the majority of the population of WA.

 

[sprawlnstall]

Interesting. In northern Minnesota it is not uncommon for people to have campfires in their backyards. city ordinances allow a 3x3 fire ring and no burning of garbage. I think most people residents enjoy the smell of a minnesota camp fire. In the county there are no wood burning restrictions

 

[Highbeam]

Interesting. In northern Minnesota it is not uncommon for people to have campfires in their backyards. city ordinances allow a 3x3 fire ring and no burning of garbage. I think most people residents enjoy the smell of a minnesota camp fire. In the county there are no wood burning restrictions

We are certainly allowed to have campfires but there are smoke restrictions for them too. I don't mind logical regulations about wood burning but they must be reasonable and not simply a way to eliminate wood burners. I can't burn with zero visible smoke from the BK which can expose me to violation and punishment.

Thermal shock is caused by leaky door gaskets. It did not take long to search by user BKVP with the words "thermal shock" to find many connections to this. Use of non-preheated room air will kill a cat in just a couple of seasons due to thermal shock. It's hard to quote from old threads and a search but here is an applicable cut and paste from BKVP:

"The point is...there are many influences beyond number of cords or even hours that influence cat life longevity. Thermal shock comes in many forms. Wet wood, ice laden wood stuck in the stove and air leaks (leaving door cracked open as learned in use of other stoves), failure to adjust gasket tension etc."

Cracking is normal, thermal shock is not always visible even after it kills the cat.

 

[tarzan]

Extreme thermal shock can cause physical damage but all cats can fail from thermal shock when it compromising the wash coat.

That's why it is so important to have a tight door gasket even on the modern 30 boxes that only use a steel cat.

I’m not so sure about “thermal shock” being the cause of cat failure from a leaky door gasket.

Sure, the leaky door gasket can send extra, unregulated (and albeit cold) air straight into a hot cat. Would this unregulated air compromising the wash coat be considered thermal shock or just premature failure do to the excess, unregulated air being pulled into the cat. I would think even preheated unregulated air (oxygen) would have the same effect.

 

[Ashful]

No, leaky door gaskets cause air leaks to flow non-preheated air into the firebox into the cat and cause.... thermal shock.

You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of the term, “thermal shock”. It is used to describe a rapid change in temperature, completely opposite the case of a steady-state scenario, such as a leaky door gasket. “Thermal shock” happens when a formerly hot combustor is presented with very cold air or exhaust, such as when opening the door or loading cold or wet wood into the stove. A leaky door gasket is a steady-state problem, not “shock”. It’s right there in Webster’s or the Oxford, if you care to look, basic English.

 

[Diabel]

All this talk about BK and dirty chimneys.....

I think BK should supply with each sale a set of chimney tools instead of a super cedar puck haha.


I am heading to the cottage today. Before I light the Princess, I will have a look up the pipe. I really hope not to have a black gooey surprise in there. After all, I have about 12 burning days in it, I think about 4 cold starts.

I just had a chance to take a look up the chimney via the cleanout.
Not too happy!

Black shiny glaze right from the cleanout up the pipe! This is total maybe 12 days of burning.

I have never seen anything like it with the VC.

What am I doing wrong?

The wood is fine, I burn the same wood in both stoves. In BK black glaze, in VC brown fluffy stuff.

 

[MissMac]

I just had a chance to take a look up the chimney via the cleanout.
Not too happy!

Black shiny glaze right from the cleanout up the pipe! This is total maybe 12 days of burning.

I have never seen anything like it with the VC.

What am I doing wrong?

The wood is fine, I burn the same wood in both stoves. In BK black glaze, in VC brown fluffy stuff.

Man, i don't like hearing accounts like this. Please let me know when you figure out what's causing you these results. How long have you been running a BK?

 

[Ryan723]

You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of the term, “thermal shock”. It is used to describe a rapid change in temperature, completely opposite the case of a steady-state scenario, such as a leaky door gasket. “Thermal shock” happens when a formerly hot combustor is presented with very cold air or exhaust, such as when opening the door or loading cold or wet wood into the stove. A leaky door gasket is a steady-state problem, not “shock”.

Probably useful to think about how 'thermal shock' actually damages a cat--it isn't necessarily the rapid temperature change itself that does the damage to the catalytic layer or the substrate, but the fact that rapid temperature changes happen unevenly across and through the combustor.

I bet that happens on the macro-level across the combustor and matrix, where you'd see cracks and crumbling. And it bet it happens on the surface-level of the matrix, where the coating of catalytic metals can be degraded.

Especially for the large-scale cracking, if one side cools rapidly but the other side doesn't, there will be stress from part of it contracting rapidly and the other part remaining a bit more expanded. Thermal stress will happen when a rush of cold air hits the cat across the front while the back is still very hot (e.g., opening the door when the bypass is closed). I'm guessing that may be the cause of some folks seeing spalling of sections of the back of a ceramic cat, which you'd think was more protected. The front rapidly cools and contracts with the loading door open and the back cannot keep up with that contraction and pieces literally crack away.

But I wonder if that can happen from left vs right sides of the combustor as well. From something like cold air and 'cool' steam (even steam at 212F is cool compared to a 1200F cat) from a wet or icy log. And i bet can also probably happen from an uneven input from an open loading door. The BK air distribution is nicely designed for very even input across the front of the stove--a leaky door will allow cold air on one side of the cat more than another, leading to warping or cracking. Slight changes in your fire cause that cold air to sweep across different parts of the cat leading to cracking of the matrix in ceramic or warping in steel cats and maybe degrading of the catalytic surface as well?

Not to say there aren't OTHER ways door leaks kill cats (like overfiring), but i would guess door gaskets cause thermal stress too.

 

[Diabel]

Ab

Man, i don't like hearing accounts like this. Please let me know when you figure out what's causing you these results. How long have you been running a BK?

About 12 days

 

[MissMac]

Ab

About 12 days

wow. that's not right. have you checked your bypass door to ensure that you're getting a good seal when it's closed? is there an obstruction on it perhaps that's causing it not to seal and therefore leak smoke up your pipe? do you cam it down until you hear the clicking noise when you close it?

 

[lsucet]

Run with bypass open as minimum as you can. to make that possible, start fires at front and top down under the cat ( cat gets to temp quick ). On reloads rake the coals to the front, this way the cat gets to light off quicker in case it was inactive during reload. If cat was active load quick and shut door and bypass. And of course try to burn seasoned wood. Burn hot on reloads before dial it down. Those steps minimize creosote creation.

 

[MissMac]

Run with bypass open as minimum as you can. to make that possible, start fires at front and top down under the cat ( cat gets to temp quick ). On reloads rake the coals to the front, this way the cat gets to light off quicker in case it was inactive during reload. If cat was active load quick and shut door and bypass. And of course try to burn seasoned wood. Burn hot on reloads before dial it down. Those steps minimize creosote creation.

For sure this is good advice, but i still find it startling that after 12 days he could have accumulated a glaze of creo from 4 cold starts?! There's got to be something else at play here, or else we'd all have some pretty messed up chimneys.

 

[Highbeam]

You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of the term, “thermal shock”. It is used to describe a rapid change in temperature, completely opposite the case of a steady-state scenario, such as a leaky door gasket. “Thermal shock” happens when a formerly hot combustor is presented with very cold air or exhaust, such as when opening the door or loading cold or wet wood into the stove. A leaky door gasket is a steady-state problem, not “shock”. It’s right there in Webster’s or the Oxford, if you care to look, basic English.

That last sentence seemed rude and unnecessary. You may be right though, I am not the one who chose the term thermal shock to describe failure by blasting the hot cat with non-preheated room air.

Perhaps I am not using the word correctly. Lets just let @BKVP weigh in. I am only repeating what I understood him to say. Thermal shock is not always a huge event, but can be small and steady.

 

[bholler]

I knew thats what you were going to say.

I say that because it is my experience. Once i got to temps where i would have been running the regency 24/7 i am seeing pretty comparable burn times to what i was getting out of the regency. Yes the bk was much easier to burn during the shoulder season but atleast for me the shoulder season this year was only about 2 weeks.

 

[lsucet]

For sure this is good advice, but i still find it startling that after 12 days he could have accumulated a glaze of creo from 4 cold starts?! There's got to be something else at play here, or else we'd all have some pretty messed up chimneys.

I dont know what his situation can be but in general, that bypass open is not a good thing. I try as much i can let the cat due its job. I dont care what is the flue temp. If cat is active everything get shut except air regardless.

 

[bholler]

Exactly. Properly sizing a bk to the application has a great influence on your satisfaction. Plus, well, I'm not expecting much of a conversion here from a diehard noncat fan. The BK would have to be twice as good to be considered just mediocre!

It was 15 at the highbeam house this morning and I threw in an extra three splits of doug fir on my way out the door. Normal 24/7 heating when lows are in the 30s would mean I add no wood on the way out the door, just reload on a 24 hour schedule. Properly sizing the stove is important and I think I'm pretty close here.

I am not a diehard noncat fan. I am a fan of any stove that will heat my house. And the bk does that fine. And yes without question the heat is more even. But i am seeing no wood savings at all and i am not seeing much difference in burntimes once temps got into the 30s. So to me i dont think the bk is worth the extra upfront cost the extra cost of replacing cats and the extra dirt in the chimney that will require a mid season cleaning.

That doesnt mean i dont think it is a goid stove or that i dislike it just that i dont see the magic some of you do.

 

[bholler]

I think bholler has been pretty clear. He does not contest the phenomenal burn times. He has just said that in *his house*, those low burn rates cannot keep up with demand, in colder weather. So, for his house, in dead-cold weather, the long burn time holds no appeal.

What he’s been quieter about is how those long burn time capabilities have served him through our long and wet fall, when heat demand was lower.

I didnt have much time of low heat demand really.

 

[JKanor]

This is my first winter with a BK princess. Burned for about 2 weeks on it up to this past monday. Seasoned oak and ash. I pulled the inside pipe and inspected/ swept the class A outside pipe. The single wall inside pipe was just dusty with no glaze at all and the outside pipe produced maybe a palm full of fine black powder, mostly from the last 3 feet. I was very pleased with the inspection and put alot of confidence in burning the rest of the season without having to clean it again.

 

[tarzan]

You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of the term, “thermal shock”. It is used to describe a rapid change in temperature, completely opposite the case of a steady-state scenario, such as a leaky door gasket. “Thermal shock” happens when a formerly hot combustor is presented with very cold air or exhaust, such as when opening the door or loading cold or wet wood into the stove. A leaky door gasket is a steady-state problem, not “shock”. It’s right there in Webster’s or the Oxford, if you care to look, basic English.

Ok, but is the supposed 95% cat failure rate from a leaky door gasket caused by the air hitting the hot cat being cool/cold or just the fact that unregulated air (20% oxygen) is being fed straight to the cat? Possibly overheating it?

 

[Diabel]

Then I must be doing something wrong.

This time, it took maybe 15min before the cat came to active. Closed the bypass (heard the click), let it rip for 30min. Set it at 3:00. After 30 min I have some flame in the box, cat is not glowing (would if I set the stat to 2:00) and gray/white smoke/steam from the pipe.

 

[Ashful]

That last sentence seemed rude and unnecessary.

You’re right, sorry about that. Caught me at a bad time. My apologies.

BTW, we are in agreement, leaky door gaskets are a very serious problem for the combustor.

 

[kf6hap]

Gooky flue. I had one too. Get a flue probe thermometer and keep the flue above the temperature that produces it. These stoves can run with the cat active but below the temperature necessary to keep the steam produced in a vapor form. In other words the flue is condensing moisture. Now that is a low burn. Not necessarily wet wood either. The cat makes steam. Crack a window if the house is too warm. Every stove has a minimum firing rate. A LOT less heat is goes up your stack with these BK stoves. Efficiency.

 

[jetsam]

To put it in perspective, my first cat was ceramic, and it survived two novice operators and multiple cold air incidents with only very minor cracking by the end of its service life.

 

[bholler]

Yes...and I'm sure those stoves work well in areas where it only gets cold every-so-often and waking up to a few coals is an "overnight burn". Knock yerself out with those! Been there...done that. I'd be here all day if I named off the stoves i've ran over the years that can't hold a candle to these BK's. (Regency being just one...LOL)

They work very well here...and that is all that matters. I'm completely happy with all aspects of these stoves...as are most users of the product.

It's only those who don't have one who seem to go on and on about how they don't/can't perform as well as _______ stove can. Who f-in cares?

For the record i have one burning in my house right now. And it only outperforms my regency in the shoulder season.