2016-17 Blaze King Performance Thread (Everything BK)

[YAGER85]

I was told 7.5" is really what you need to put a 6" insulated liner in the chimney. If you have a 8x8 clay liner then you really only have 7x7 inches of space as the "8x8" liner is an outside dimension and the walls are about 1/2-5/8" thick.

The king requires 8" (round) flue so if you were doing an insulated liner you need 9.5" of space.

I need to get up there and measure it!

 

[YAGER85]

I need to get up there and measure it!

I am only interested in inserts, can't do a free standing otherwise it would be between the King and the Kuma Sequoia.

 

[Highbeam]

I was told 7.5" is really what you need to put a 6" insulated liner in the chimney. If you have a 8x8 clay liner then you really only have 7x7 inches of space as the "8x8" liner is an outside dimension and the walls are about 1/2-5/8" thick.

The king requires 8" (round) flue so if you were doing an insulated liner you need 9.5" of space.

The king does not require an 8" round flue. There are several configurations that are allowed for all of the BK stoves and an insulated liner is not a requirement.

Many many folks use a clay lined masonry chimney for their BKs with no liner.

From the princess insert manual:


"We recommend that the inside your chimney be at least the same diameter as the flue of your stove. If you
plan to use an existing masonry chimney, be sure it is free of cracks and loose joints."

 

[Marshy]

The king does not require an 8" round flue. There are several configurations that are allowed for all of the BK stoves and an insulated liner is not a requirement.

Many many folks use a clay lined masonry chimney for their BKs with no liner.

From the princess insert manual:

"We recommend that the inside your chimney be at least the same diameter as the flue of your stove. If you
plan to use an existing masonry chimney, be sure it is free of cracks and loose joints."

You are right, an insulated liner in a clay lined chimney is not required, it is only a recommendation. I have no doubt there are plenty of people that use a clay lined chimney. It would be interesting to know how many have creosote issues. In some cases, like in raypa's case, his stove is performing as needed to keep it house warm but is having a creosote issue. The real solution for that is an insulated liner or run the stove hotter.

Regarding the size of the chimney, no where in the BK King manual does it state that the 8" chimney flue is a recommendation. Its standard practice for the size of the chimney to be the same size as the flue collar on the stove.

Maybe ask BKVP about hooking a King to an uninsulated masonry chimney and see what he thinks. I already had that conversation and would say that the manual should be updated to include the words "highly recommended".

 

[YAGER85]

The conversation has veered off course, as most forums do. The original topic has nothing to do with flue size or insulated liners. I'm looking for people who have fireplace inserts installed in their homes or who have knowledge or experience using one. I will be following the manufactures recommendations fully and plan to install a high quality 6 inch ss insulated liner. Not interested in half assing it.

 

[Marshy]

The conversation has veered off course, as most forums do. The original topic has nothing to do with flue size or insulated liners. I'm looking for people who have fireplace inserts installed in their homes or who have knowledge or experience using one. I will be following the manufactures recommendations fully and plan to install a high quality 6 inch ss insulated liner. Not interested in half assing it.

I understand what you are saying. This is also a public forum in which more than one conversation is taking place. Using the reply function when communicating allows people to know who the information is intended for. Take the parts that are related to your inquiry and ignore the rest. Regards.

 

[YAGER85]

Also, can someone shed some light on a fireplace/chimney seal? I'm not sure on the nomenclature. What is their purpose?

 

[YAGER85]

I understand what you are saying. This is also a public forum in which more than one conversation is taking place. Using the reply function when communicating allows people to know who the information is intended for. Take the parts that are related to your inquiry and ignore the rest. Regards.

That's good advice, thanks!

 

[Highbeam]

Its standard practice for the size of the chimney to be the same size as the flue collar on the stove.

That's the detail you missed. The chimney can be bigger but not smaller than the flue collar. A liner is not a requirement of the stove, an insulated liner is also not a stove requirement.

Sounds like you're getting your recommendations and your requirements mixed up and that is affecting other potential operators.

 

[kennyp2339]

Also, can someone shed some light on a fireplace/chimney seal? I'm not sure on the nomenclature. What is their purpose?

Are you referring to a "block off plate" When you run a liner down your chimney people put in a metal plate sealing off there fire box from the chimney, usually in the smoke shelf area, some use roxal insulation on top of the plate. People that install these block off plates see huge improvements in the stoves function, more heat into the living space, better burn times, cleaner install.
The block off plate works hand in hand with a liner, the liner keeps the normal build up of ash and creosote with in the unit, making chimney sweep and normal maintenance a breeze, also it helps with air sealing, reducing the possible creosote smell (especially in the summer) when the stove is not in use.

 

[YAGER85]

Are you referring to a "block off plate" When you run a liner down your chimney people put in a metal plate sealing off there fire box from the chimney, usually in the smoke shelf area, some use roxal insulation on top of the plate. People that install these block off plates see huge improvements in the stoves function, more heat into the living space, better burn times, cleaner install.
The block off plate works hand in hand with a liner, the liner keeps the normal build up of ash and creosote with in the unit, making chimney sweep and normal maintenance a breeze, also it helps with air sealing, reducing the possible creosote smell (especially in the summer) when the stove is not in use.

Perfect, looks like I need to add that to the list. . My chimney is about 25 feet of in home masonry. I'm slightly concerned that there will be too much draft thus killing my burntimes.

 

[kennyp2339]

My chimney is about 25 feet of in home masonry. I'm slightly concerned that there will be too much draft thus killing my burntimes.

That's a valid concern, perhaps you can have the liner installed first and have a legit chimney guy come test you draft, I forget the parameters but BK's have minimum and maximum # for draft speed.

 

[YAGER85]

Kenny,

I was following a forum on here about a customer who purchased the Regency 2600i and had severe overdraft problems. His burn times were only a few hours and something about the stove not producing heat after the flames went out. All said and done, a typical setup with install is easily $4500+. Not something I want to happen! Thankfully, there is a ma and pa store nearby that sells BK for about $600 less than the store in town. Will probably end up reinvesting that money into a quality liner/block off plate/cap etc.

 

[Woody Stover]

Anecdotally, the big splits of better wood did not appear to last any longer than the smaller splits of lower quality wood. Go figure. I am definitely going to be splitting much larger than I did last year simply to save myself the work. It is nice to have smaller stuff though so you can fill in gaps.

my previous stoves, I did not dare pack the firebox full like I do the Ashford as the combustion rate was largely dictated by what was loaded and how it was loaded. "Trick" burning was the order of the day. For example, at reload rake all coals to the left and choke it down so as to control the wood's progression of ignition thus elongating the burn. EW vs NS burning. Choke to the smoke point. Those days are gone with the BK stoves.

Yeah, I like a mix of sizes so I can cram the small fire box on my stove. Plus with a cat, I don't need big splits to keep the stove under control...I just cut the air.

I put in a new Condar steel cat as my first cat was getting tired. While I could have gotten by with the old cat for a while longer, a fresh cat is more fun!

Is that a diesel-foil cat, or a DuraFoil like the ones available from BK and Woodstock?

Here is my chimney. I am noticing that I'm getting watery creosote coming back through the thimble if I don't open fire it enough when I load up wood. I need to leave my door cracked until my chimney temp is 400-500. Once this is done, It seems to be ok.

How well is that cleanout door sealed? If cold air gets in there easily, it will cool the chimney further. But since you don't have a liner to the top, the masonry chimney isn't going to stay very warm, no matter what stove you have. I'm not familiar with how thimbles are tapped into clay liners, but is it possible that creo may be condensing in the clay liner, then running down and hitting the outside of the thimble where it comes into the clay, then the creo runs in around the outside of the thimble? It could be that during start-up, when you run the stove hotter, the initial moisture that comes off the wood doesn't condense as much as it would at lower start-up temps.

Got a pic of the cat doing its thing tonight

I love to see my cat burning like that, a dull orange where you can see the cells of the cat. When the cat gets hot and all I can see is bright orange, no cells visible, I'm looking to slow it down.

looking to get a little bit better understanding about if a new King is going to be more "powerful" (for lack of a better word) than my old. Are the upgrades in combustor technology, etc. making the BKs a better wood stove than my 1983 model? We have been very happy with our curent one. Am I to expect a similar performance as the old one or is there a benefit to upgrading?

The main benefit from the new stoves is cleaner, more efficient burning and less wood use, as well as a cleaner, safer chimney. It sounds as though you may be looking for maximum heat output, though. The BKs are known as the low-burn kings. If you look at the EPA output ratings from testing, you'll find other stoves that excel at high-end output. Also, you really need a full stainless liner to the top, and depending on your chimney, you may be limited to stoves with a 6" flue. Some of the high-output stoves require 8" chimney.
https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2013-08/documents/certifiedwood.pdf

 

[Woody Stover]

Perfect, looks like I need to add that to the list.

You may be confusing "block-off plate" with "pipe damper." The block-off plate keeps heat from being lost up the chimney between the outside of the liner and the masonry.

I was following a forum on here about a customer who purchased the Regency 2600i and had severe overdraft problems.

If you keep reading in that thread you'll see that the issue has been resolved with a fix from Regency, which is incorporated into the stoves in the shops now. 25' of chimney is within the normal range for most stoves, but definitely something you want to consider since it's hard to install a pipe damper on an insert, unless you would leave the surround off. Generally, cat stoves will allow you to cut the air further, and control strong draft better, than secondary-burn stoves. The type and size of wood you load will also have an effect on how fast the stove burns.

 

[Marshy]

That's the detail you missed. The chimney can be bigger but not smaller than the flue collar. A liner is not a requirement of the stove, an insulated liner is also not a stove requirement.

Sounds like you're getting your recommendations and your requirements mixed up and that is affecting other potential operators.

What I said was the King requires an 8" flue/chimney. I happened to say round but it doesn't matter as long as the area is equivalent. The 8" chimney and flue connector is a requirement on the King, not a recommendation. Its in the images I posted. If you are going to abide by that and install an insulated liner that is 8" then you need a 9.5" space (chimney) to stuff it down. It can be larger if necessary which will create some drawbacks if its too large however, the manual says its a requirement. It will not tell you that its acceptable to use a larger chimney or flue connector but standard convention is use the same size flue connector and chimney as the flue collar on the stove or larger, within reason.

I fail to see how this is confusing and affecting other potential operators. I strongly emphasized the recommendation for an insulated liner in a masonry chimney, especially one that is on the exterior to the home (see post #1996). I pointed out there are members (Ray and I) where creosote is a issue in a masonry chimney without a liner. I can tell you right now from the conversation I had with Chris at BK, if I had known the concerns he had about hooking the unit to a masonry chimney without an insulated liner before I had bought the stove then I would have went with a different stove. I'm going out on a limb but would bet that @raypa would agree with that last statement. I feel strongly that someone considering to purchase a BK stove should strongly consider their recommendation for an insulated liner in a masonry chimney as "highly recommended". Just my opinion. Regards.

 

[black smoke signals]

. 25' of chimney is within the normal range for most stoves, but definitely something you want to consider since it's hard to install a pipe damper on an insert, unless you would leave the surround off. Generally, cat stoves will allow you to cut the air further, and control strong draft better, Woody educate me on the leaving the surround off please! Control strong draft better explain this too please.

 

[Ashful]

Perfect, looks like I need to add that to the list. . My chimney is about 25 feet of in home masonry. I'm slightly concerned that there will be too much draft thus killing my burntimes.

Non issue. I have one of my BK Ashfords on a 29 foot insulated liner with block-off plates top and bottom, and it runs like a dream. Infinitely controllable, and I can burn when it's 65F outside with no loss of draft issues. This ain't no run-away uncontrollable non-cat, bud.

 

[Highbeam]

What I said was the King requires an 8" flue/chimney. I happened to say round but it doesn't matter as long as the area is equivalent. The 8" chimney and flue connector is a requirement on the King, not a recommendation.

You're getting closer. The area of the chimney must be equal to or greater than the area of the 8" collar. I forget the NFPA code, but I believe it is either 1.5x or 2x. Thus, no, an 8" chimney is not required for the King. It can be bigger and almost always is more than the approximately 50 Square inches of an 8" circle. Read the manual, the unlined masonry connection is "typical" installation.

I would also recommend an insulated liner the same size as the flue collar for ideal operation. That's a should, not a shall.

Looks like you are confusing connector pipe with chimney. The manual certainly does specify that only 8" pipe may be used for connector pipe. That's not the same thing as a chimney.

 

[savenmoney]

I am only interested in inserts, can't do a free standing otherwise it would be between the King and the Kuma Sequoia.

Kuma sequoia does come in an insert model they are awesome i have one check them ot

 

[Marshy]

You're getting closer. The area of the chimney must be equal to or greater than the area of the 8" collar. I forget the NFPA code, but I believe it is either 1.5x or 2x. Thus, no, an 8" chimney is not required for the King. It can be bigger and almost always is more than the approximately 50 Square inches of an 8" circle. Read the manual, the unlined masonry connection is "typical" installation.

I would also recommend an insulated liner the same size as the flue collar for ideal operation. That's a should, not a shall.

Looks like you are confusing connector pipe with chimney. The manual certainly does specify that only 8" pipe may be used for connector pipe. That's not the same thing as a chimney.

You are being little to no help IMO. Please enlighten us with your superior understanding of the codes and chimneys.

Review the manual only specifies the required size of the connector to the chimney (8"). However, it does in fact say an 8" factory built chimney suitable for use with solid fuels is REQURED. It is also vaguely says "or a masonry residential type chimney". See post #2004 for actual clip from the manual.

"CHIMNEYS: DO NOT CONNECT THIS UNIT TO A CHIMNEY FLUE SERVING ANOTHER APPLIANCE. Except for installation detailed below, use 8" listed factory built chimney suitable for use with solid fuels and conforming to, ULC629 in Canada or UL-103HT in the USA or a masonry residential type chimney."


Dont tell me to "read the manual" then make a false claim like "the unlined masonry connection is "typical" installation". That is not in the manual. Also, if your going to call me out then at least provide some facts. "I forget the NFPA code but believe its this..." is not helpful to anyone. There isn't even a reference in the BK manual for the NFPA code.

The closest the manual come to specifying a chimney is in the VENTING SYSTEMS section of the manual (also attached in post #2004). It calls for an 8" connector to the chimney and that the stove "may be connected to a lined masonry chimney sutible for use with solif fuels and conforming to, ULC629 in Canada or UL-103HT in the USA". It also says "the chimney connector must be attached to either an approved masonry chimney or one of the listed factory built chimneys suitable for use with solid wood fuel".

Im sure you'll try to correct me if Im wrong but since the stove is required to have a 8" "factor built chimney" and an 8" connector (UL-103HT rated), it stands to reason that the minimum required size for a masonry residential type chimney would be 50 square inches (8" round). This would roughly be equivalent to an 8x8 square chimney with the clay liner, which reduces its area to approximately 56 square inches.

Im not pretending to be an expert on UL or NFPA code. Maybe the UL code is only applicable to fabricated factory chimney pipe and the NFPA code is only applicable to residential chimney. If you called BK and asked them the minimum required chimney size they would tell you an 8x8 square chimney or 8" round liner or class A chimney pipe, nothing smaller. If you asked them if you can connect the stove to a 6" round insulated liner in a masonry chimney they would strongly advise against it (for the King), it wouldn't be an option according to them. If you called and asked Chris his thoughts on connecting the King to an un-insulated 8x8 clay lined masonry chimney he would strongly advise against that as well. That's the take away. How do I know? Because I've asked him some of these questions and he expressed concerns with creosote buildup, regardless of draft, in a masonry chimney without an insulated liner.

 

[Highbeam]

You are being little to no help IMO. Please enlighten us with your superior understanding of the codes and chimneys.

Review the manual only specifies the required size of the connector to the chimney (8"). However, it does in fact say an 8" factory built chimney suitable for use with solid fuels is REQURED. It is also vaguely says "or a masonry residential type chimney". See post #2004 for actual clip from the manual.

"CHIMNEYS: DO NOT CONNECT THIS UNIT TO A CHIMNEY FLUE SERVING ANOTHER APPLIANCE. Except for installation detailed below, use 8" listed factory built chimney suitable for use with solid fuels and conforming to, ULC629 in Canada or UL-103HT in the USA or a masonry residential type chimney."


Dont tell me to "read the manual" then make a false claim like "the unlined masonry connection is "typical" installation". That is not in the manual. Also, if your going to call me out then at least provide some facts. "I forget the NFPA code but believe its this..." is not helpful to anyone. There isn't even a reference in the BK manual for the NFPA code.

The closest the manual come to specifying a chimney is in the VENTING SYSTEMS section of the manual (also attached in post #2004). It calls for an 8" connector to the chimney and that the stove "may be connected to a lined masonry chimney sutible for use with solif fuels and conforming to, ULC629 in Canada or UL-103HT in the USA". It also says "the chimney connector must be attached to either an approved masonry chimney or one of the listed factory built chimneys suitable for use with solid wood fuel".

Im sure you'll try to correct me if Im wrong but since the stove is required to have a 8" "factor built chimney" and an 8" connector (UL-103HT rated), it stands to reason that the minimum required size for a masonry residential type chimney would be 50 square inches (8" round). This would roughly be equivalent to an 8x8 square chimney with the clay liner, which reduces its area to approximately 56 square inches.

Im not pretending to be an expert on UL or NFPA code. Maybe the UL code is only applicable to fabricated factory chimney pipe and the NFPA code is only applicable to residential chimney. If you called BK and asked them the minimum required chimney size they would tell you an 8x8 square chimney or 8" round, not smaller. If you asked them if you can connect the stove to a 6" round insulated liner in a masonry chimney they would strongly advise against it (for the King). If you called and asked Chris his thoughts on connecting the King to an un-insulated 8x8 clay lined masonry chimney he would strongly advise against that as well. That's the take away. How do I know? Because I've asked him and he expressed concerns with creosote buildup even if I had sufficient draft in the masonry chimney without an insulated liner.

Being of little help to you but trying to prevent the damage that you are trying to cause with your ignorance.

Look at the pictures in the manual, read the whole thing, not just parts. You need to understand that connector pipe, factory built chimneys, and masonry chimneys are all different things with specific meanings. I now understand more clearly why inspections are required in so many jurisdictions.

It is important to correct your mistakes because they are misleading potential owners. You erroneously state that nothing larger than an 8" chimney is allowed. That's flat out wrong.

 

[Highbeam]

Read page 18. Once you clean your glasses you will see the words "typical" beside the photo of an unlined masonry chimney installation for the king. Sheesh.

(broken link removed to http://www.blazeking.com/EN/PDF/manuals/OM-KE-E.pdf)

 

[Niko]

so

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[Woody Stover]

Kuma sequoia does come in an insert model they are awesome i have one check them ot

He's stated that he wants 6" chimney...but I don't think he's actually measured to see if 8" is an option. Maybe he wants to avoid the additional cost of 8".

You are being little to no help IMO

He's right, the manual says go ahead and dump it into a masonry chimney, and they say nothing about the size. However, with low BK flue temps and the need for taller stacks to avoid smoke smell in some cases, I doubt that anyone who has read up on these stoves would attempt install a BK without a full liner. So, yeah, he's no help here.