$5800 for new BK Ashford 30.2?

[kborndale]

Interesting opinions on gouging without knowing all the details/cost. The screenshot below is documented proof of gouging. Picture taken at a preseason NHL game in Edmonton AB yesterday.

View attachment 340569

How is Coors light a domestic beer and Coors original is an import?

 

[Murray01]

How is Coors light a domestic beer and Coors original is an import?

Molson of Canada merged with Coors of the US awhile back. I’m guessing Coors light is brewed in Canada and Coors original is brewed in Colorado?

 

[Todd]

I'll try to explain.

Yes, the cost of testing and certification is very costly $35k for emissions testing. In addition, you must also conduct safety testing. This established clearance. Another $35k. Now, recently U.L. Standards Committee (yes I am a member) promulgated the UL 1390 for masonry fireplaces. So if you are testing an insert, add $10k. When you test a freestanding stove, the new UL standard for testing for alcove clearances, add $10k.

The above costs do NOT include the R & D costs with materials, labor, test filters, test equipment etc.

You may think sure, you encounter these costs once and then get to sell the stoves for a decade or longer. In the past that was true. However, in June of 2023, EPA issued a memorandum of understanding. The notice informed manufacturers that they would need to RETEST all ASTM 3053 cordwood tested units. By the way 78% of the cordwood stoves were tested to this "cordwood method". And, any M28R tested stove that was between 1.9-2.0 also needed retesting because "the variability in testing with solid fuel is such that 1.9 might have been luck". Don't comment on this because I will go off the rails. All this happened at the same time the tax credit was launched.

Now, you also have to keep in mind that retailers MUST not sell a certified heater after the expiration date of the certificate. This limits the number of "new" orders because dealers need to clear all the inventory....as do distributors. The tax credit has been a blessing for a few manufacturers because many consumers want qualifying units.

In short, continued volatility in regulations, test methods and compliance requirements is costly manufacturers hundreds of thousands of dollars.

As a reminder, I would very much like to have a sit down with the many professional contributors to these forum discussions. I have met several folks in person, but I really like the idea of a 2-day event. First day can be all about testing, compliance, certifications and the second ay the future of the aforementioned with new rule making coming in December of 2027. The reason I'd like to do this is because I would very much like to share valuable, accurate information prior to my retirement. And yes, I could arrange a couple of events, one in the east, one in the west and perhaps one in Canada. If this has any interest to you folks, let me know, I bet I can get a few other manufacturers to join the event. If nothing else, perhaps a virtual event, although it's hard for me to buy a round virtually!

BKVP

It’s my understanding that in 2023 10 states sued the EPA over the cordwood test method to change it? Should have just left it alone, now Manufacturers are struggling to get their certifications so they can ship out stoves. Maybe there should have been a longer grace period before implementing the new test methods?

 

[BKVP]

Is it save to assume these cost would be doubled to certify a stove in the Canada and US markets?

Not necessarily. There are 4 EPA approved labs. Only 1 of them is in Canada. So most are tested in the US. Although, some East Coast mfgs use the 1 Canadian test lab.
What is hurting Canadian mfgs (we have one ourselves) is the tariff situation.

BKVP

 

[BKVP]

It’s my understanding that in 2023 10 states sued the EPA over the cordwood test method to change it? Should have just left it alone, now Manufacturers are struggling to get their certifications so they can ship out stoves. Maybe there should have been a longer grace period before implementing the new test methods?

To be truthful, 1 manufacturer took "liberties " and the group you are referencing caught it.
As a cordwood test, the single mfg shaped the wood square and in doing so removed the bark. They also cross stacked the wood N/S first layer and E/W 2nd layer etc.

The ASTM 3053 method did not say you couldn't do the above. None of the other 28 manufacturers did this, just one. It was determined there were just too many holes in the method, so rather than penalize 1 manufacturer, the terminated the use of the method and denied any renewals!

BKVP

 

[tabner]

98% of stove companies owned by families and some big conglomerates. they are just greedy thieves. look at a telsa car and a Chinese BYD car. telsa goes from 40K to 70K. BYD start at 4900 to 23K . they are made better with better batteries and are banned in the US cause US cant compete they want monopolies. so I guess China does not have to buy steel and all the other many items for the cars.

BYD is so cheap because they get direct subsidies from their government. China does not usually produce better quality products, i'm not sure the BYD is better than Tesla (very doubtful)

 

[EbS-P]

Interesting opinions on gouging without knowing all the details/cost. The screenshot below is documented proof of gouging. Picture taken at a preseason NHL game in Edmonton AB yesterday.

View attachment 340569

I bet they sold out of fruit cups!