752 miles in a Tesla S

[Solarguy3500]

The non-trivial issues would appear more political and sociological than technical, but let's also not assume that electrons need to float both directions to make something of this. Simply managing the timeframe in which the car takes charge from the grid could provide enormous benefit to utilities, without any need to use the batteries as a power source during peak demand.

One of the utilities in MA has a program for EV chargers that is run through the same Connected Solutions program that offers incentives for home battery discharge during peak demand.

EV Charger Managed Charging | Eversource

The ConnectedSolutions managed charging program rewards you for using less energy during periods of peak demand, when others are using more.

www.eversource.com

 

[Solarguy3500]

One thing that would be necessary with a vehicle backup interface is for it to instantly disconnect the main service in the event of a power failure to avoid backfeeding the system in the event of a downed wire or line work being done.

Correct. The other component that you have to purchase with the F150 is a transfer switch if you want to use it for home backup power.

 

[begreen]

The non-trivial issues would appear more political and sociological than technical, but let's also not assume that electrons need to float both directions to make something of this. Simply managing the timeframe in which the car takes charge from the grid could provide enormous benefit to utilities, without any need to use the batteries as a power source during peak demand.

Yes, regardless of the technology or even simply controlling the charging time period, the system will need user consent and the option to override. Individual needs and circumstances will vary depending on how far the vehicle owner expects to drive the next day, the battery size, outdoor temperature, etc. A partial charge may suffice in some cases but not be acceptable in others. Winter range will be shorter so some may need to charge up longer then.

 

[EbS-P]

Can you elaborate on this? I have 100amp service currently and could likely get 200amp, but I don't see how I'd easily get 400amp service.

I didn’t look into it any deeper than this video. My guess is the 80 amp charger, when you do your load calculations, put you over 200 amps for the average house. It’s not the only I’m sure, just the officially supported one. If you want fast home charging it will be the biggest current draw. Not everyone needs it. Doing some math I can easily charge 180 miles a week off of 15 Amp 120v. We don’t drive that much and work from home when we can. 80 amp charging is it a luxury not a necessity.

 

[woodgeek]

I didn’t look into it any deeper than this video. My guess is the 80 amp charger, when you do your load calculations, put you over 200 amps for the average house. It’s not the only I’m sure, just the officially supported one. If you want fast home charging it will be the biggest current draw. Not everyone needs it. Doing some math I can easily charge 180 miles a week off of 15 Amp 120v. We don’t drive that much and work from home when we can. 80 amp charging is it a luxury not a necessity.

Interesting video, but I honestly wasn't surprised by any of this guy's numbers.

For the record, I live in a spendy neighborhood, where every other house has a Tesla AND a whole house generator.

The one thing I find ridiculous is the idea of the value proposition of needing >10 kW of backup power. I consider THAT a luxury, and not a necessity. Like, do I need to run EVERYTHING at the same time, like, my Central AC (or electric heating), my coffeepot, my fridge, my sump pump, cook Thanksgiving dinner, wash a mountain of laundry and take 6 showers back to back? That is how I get to 10 kW.

There is a BIG utility gap between 10-20 watts (what I get from a flashlight or USB power pack) and 10,000 Watts from an F-150 or Powerwall!

Ofc, I have been backfeeding my house for many years from an EV (a LEAF, a Bolt AND a Volt), several days of runtime total at this point.

I have a 2 kW sine wave inverter putting out 120VAC, and I just backfeed ALL my 120 V circuits (including fridge and sump pump). Can't run the coffeepot AND the microwave at the same time, so I take turns. I cook on a $50 propane campstove I stick on my (dead) electric range. I take navy showers from the HW in my 80 gal HPWH (which stays warm for 4 days). I heat my house with my wood insert (and have plenty of juice for the blower). I skip doing laundry.

Done. I use about 8-10 kWh per day (only half as much as video guy), that was 1.5 days backup from the LEAF, 4 days from the Bolt, and close to a week with the Volt (burning an 8 gal tank of gas). Total cost of system: about $400 for the inverter and wiring, and $300 to DIY install a 50A outlet I backfeed through.

So, 2 kW has a great utility, and only costs me $700 (+ EV). This is $0.31/Watt, and a low cost of entry, versus the >$1/Watt for the PowerWall or the several $$/Watt for a Yeti thing.

What I did learn:
(1) Ford is subsidizing the Lightning to get low price point. Ofc they are. The F-150 is their flagship and profit center, ofc they want to transition it ASAP. The question is their build volume. The Volt (in 2010) and Bolt (in 2016) were also heavy subsidized, and then produced in low volumes. GM saw them as 'pathfinders' or betas to get real world data (and they had mandatory 3G car telemetry installed so GM engineering could track everything). With the battery problems of the Bolt (and the LEAF), I think its cleat that it IS a beta. Is the Lightning also a low volume beta?

The 320A breaker box is a deal killer. Total bait and switch. They will get people into the showroom putting home backup in the ads, and then no one will actually do the backfeed. They WILL run extension cords into their house (or worksite) and run stuff that way and be happy.

Nissan was pushing their backfeed solution for the LEAF in 2012 as a sales tactic. 10 years ago. Never sold outside Japan. Back to the future for Ford. Although to their credit, I think they DO have a large sine-wave inverter installed standard in every unit sold!

(2) The 'wall box' at the end... With millions of EVs driving around today, and another 1 M or so added per year, the market for someone with an **affordable** several kW bi-directional EVSE is growing every year. Eventually they will come within reach for the non DIY-er. The US market has been looking for this for 10 years already.... hopefully it won't take 10 more.

 

[NoGoodAtScreenNames]

I am a little skeptical of the vehicle to grid options. There’s lots of new vehicles which are coming out that allow vehicle to load which will be useful for people on camping trips or during emergency blackouts. That’s different than using the batteries as a core component of the grid.

First, the manufacturers have to think about the warranty period for batteries. Most batteries have something like an 8-10 year 80k to 100k mile warranty. Let’s assume that the grid takes 5 kwh from your car every day. That’s the equivalent of about 5,000 miles assuming discharging to the grid is somewhat equivalent to discharging to the motor. Are they going to start warrantying the battery based on kwh instead of miles? Do I want to prematurely degrade the range of my ev for the benefit of the grid?

Also, as Begreen and others have mentioned this needs to be beneficial to the customer. My current solar metering is pretty lame. I pay $0.15 for each kwh I pull from the grid and get paid $0.04 for each kwh I send back to the grid. My daytime over production does not offset my nighttime use. I wouldn’t let the utility pay me $0.04 for sending electricity from my battery and then charge me $0.15 to recharge it. So the reimbursement rates have to make sense for the customer to buy in to it.

I suspect that by the time we have enough BEVs around, and the right hardware and software available to manage all of this the utilities will be able to repurpose aging batteries that are no longer useful for vehicles but may be useful for grid storage. The utility can also actively manage their batteries in a central location instead of passively managing all of their dispersed batteries in peoples garages. This also helps with the battery end of life disposal problems.

 

[Ashful]

Yes, regardless of the technology or even simply controlling the charging time period, the system will need user consent and the option to override. Individual needs and circumstances will vary depending on how far the vehicle owner expects to drive the next day, the battery size, outdoor temperature, etc. A partial charge may suffice in some cases but not be acceptable in others. Winter range will be shorter so some may need to charge up longer then.

Yep, all issues to resolve, but relatively small obstacles, in my view of it. Even my comparatively-inexpensive iphone has had the ability for several years to charge itself to 80% when I plug it in at night, waiting until the time just prior to me waking to finish the charge. It's smart enough to know I wake up and pick it up nearly every morning at 5am, and I can indeed see that feature's working as designed if I wake at 4am to take a piss. This is a compromise, my phone will never be fully charged if I have an emergency at 3am, but I figure I can get by with 80% for that rare occasion.

Likewise, there are many practical and relatively unobtrusive compromises that could be made, in the name of grid load stabilization, with a projected future of 100M EV's plugged into the grid. I think it's inevitable, there is no way we won't end up there, the only question is the form it will take and who will be reaping profit from it.