A little help from those who know....

[Robert Caiati]

Hi all,

I just signed up for hearth.com and I am looking for good advice. I bought my house in 2009 and bought a wood burning insert. I had an open fireplace and wanted to utilize it. The chimney flue was cracked so I lined it with an 8" stainless insulated liner and bought a Napoleon 1101 insert. The stove seems to be well made and does the job as long as the wood is not the least bit wet. I was told that since the stove is EPA certified, the wood needs to be seasoned thoroughly. The first year we burned was horrible! We didn't have time to cut any trees because it was October so we bought 'seasoned' wood for $175/cord. Every time I started a fire it was a mess. I had to take an axe and split the already split wood several times for any type of fire to start. The second year, I had my wood cut and stacked before Memorial Day and everything went smooth smooth smooth for the year.. This past season, we had a baby in mid summer and didn't get to stack any wood until August. As it turns out, it was way too late. The stove had a hard time keeping a good flame all year

This year I was almost ready to switch to a pellet insert but my property is covered with oak and I can't justify it because my fuel is free. I would like to get a new stove. Something with more BTU's and something that just might be able to handle wood a little on the moist side should we have a late start again. I was looking into the Quadra-Fire Grand Voyageur. I heard that QF is a sister company to Harman and I know Harman is a leading brand. I liked the voyageur because of the automatic combustion control. I like the fact that I would be able to start a fire and shut the door and the 20-minute timer would open up the stove enough to start the fire well. Is this marketing at it's best or is this really possible? Also, I am looking to sell my Napoleon...... would the classifieds section work well or is there another site that would work better? Any help is greatly appreciated!!

Rob

 

[webby3650]

Welcome, your at the right place! Not to say that a new insert isn't a bad idea, you might definitely be happier stepping up to a higher end unit, but it will have the same issue. All the new stoves require dry wood to perform properly. The Oak on your property is alot of the problem, Oak takes 2 full years to season if it was cut down while it was green, 1 year at least if it was standing dead. Can you spend a few weekends and process enough for 2 years? That way you will always be a year ahead.

 

[Robert Caiati]

Welcome, your at the right place! Not to say that a new insert isn't a bad idea, you might definitely be happier stepping up to a higher end unit, but it will have the same issue. All the new stoves require dry wood to perform properly. The Oak on your property is alot of the problem, Oak takes 2 full years to season if it was cut down while it was green, 1 year at least if it was standing dead. Can you spend a few weekends and process enough for 2 years? That way you will always be a year ahead.

Thanks for the reply! I think a higher end stove would help my issues. I didn't realize that oak took longer to season but it makes sense. I could cut enough to be a year ahead but not two. I don't have the room to stack it. I'm assuming since I'm looking to get a stove with higher BTUs, I will go through more wood? As it stands, my current stove is rated for 40K BTUs and the one I am looking at is rated at 52K.... Would you be able to possibly suggest a non-EPA wood stove or are ALL of the new ones EPA rated? Do the EPA rated stoves burn better? What exactly does the EPA certify stoves for and what are advantages/disadvantages?

 

[BrotherBart]

The EPA certification process started in 1988. Its sole purpose was the reduction of noxious emissions from wood stoves which were becoming a problem after so many people started burning wood during the oil crisis of the seventies. Along the way there was a surprise. Folks started getting more heat out of less wood and not getting their chimneys as dirty and having as many chimney fires as a result of the cleaner burning stoves.

If you are going to heat with wood you are going to have to figure out how to season and store good dry wood and burn it properly. EPA or non-EPA stove. Period. Otherwise you are better off just turning up the furnace or installing a pellet stove.

 

[Robert Caiati]

The EPA certification process started in 1988. Its sole purpose was the reduction of noxious emissions from wood stoves which were becoming a problem after so many people started burning wood during the oil crisis of the seventies. Along the way there was a surprise. Folks started getting more heat out of less wood and not getting their chimneys as dirty and having as many chimney fires as a result of the cleaner burning stoves.

If you are going to heat with wood you are going to have to figure out how to season and store good dry wood and burn it properly. EPA or non-EPA stove. Period. Otherwise you are better off just turning up the furnace or installing a pellet stove.

I see. Thank you for the info.... Was it just luck that our 2nd season burned so well? I usually stick to dead standing. I had that wood stacked for only 5 1/2 months and it burned beautifully. Can you make any comment on the quadra-fire or suggest a really good insert?

 

[BrotherBart]

Lot of good inserts out there. Folks here with Quad inserts, and my neighbor who has one, seem to like'em.

Top covered in lots of sun and wind and Oak can burn pretty good after a year. 99.9% of what I burn is red and white Oak. For many years I cut it in the Spring and started burning it in the Fall. When I started putting it up three years ahead it cut my wood consumption considerably and is a delight to burn. I got religion from the members here on dry wood back when I joined the Forum.

A cheap moisture meter is a great tool to have.

 

[Robert Caiati]

Lot of good inserts out there. Folks here with Quad inserts, and my neighbor who has one, seem to like'em.

Top covered in lots of sun and wind and Oak can burn pretty good after a year. 99.9% of what I burn is red and white Oak. For many years I cut it in the Spring and started burning it in the Fall. When I started putting it up three years ahead it cut my wood consumption considerably and is a delight to burn. I got religion from the members here on dry wood back when I joined the Forum.

A cheap moisture meter is a great tool to have.

Thank you. If your letting it season for 2-3 years is it still only top covered? I may be able to stack it for that long if I set some gravel down near my fence. Your saying the longer its seasoned, the more efficiently it burns?

 

[BrotherBart]

The dryer it is the more efficiently it burns. For sure under 20% moisture and better down around 15%. I top cover it the day it is split and stacked. Any more cover traps the moisture from the ground and doesn't let the wood get dry. In fact it rots it.

Some here never cover their wood. I can't do that too rainy here.

 

[Robert Caiati]

The dryer it is the more efficiently it burns. For sure under 20% moisture and better down around 15%. I top cover it the day it is split and stacked. Any more cover traps the moisture from the ground and doesn't let the wood get dry. In fact it rots it.

Some here never cover their wood. I can't do that too rainy here.

Thank you very much for the information!! I will get my mind wrapped around cutting for two years and ill pick up a moisture meter.

 

[Sprinter]

You are not alone in this. Many, many people get disillusioned with their stoves when the only problem is the quality of the wood. The Napoleon may not be upper end, but there's nothing wrong with it. It works basically the same way and they all have the same requirement for wood. Of course, if you want another stove anyway, go for it. You'd be surprised how many people get new stoves every year or two.

There are some workarounds that you can try. There are manufactured wood products like Biobricks and some others that people use to supplement their less than ideal wood. Some use it exclusively if they have to, but I think you could mix it with your other stuff in the right proportions to help a lot. Also, oak is notorious for taking a long time (some even say three years) so maybe you could try another species for awhile also. Splitting the wood small can cut the seasoning time way down as well.

Unless you really want a new stove for other reasons, please be patient.

 

[Robert Caiati]

You are not alone in this. Many, many people get disillusioned with their stoves when the only problem is the quality of the wood. The Napoleon may not be upper end, but there's nothing wrong with it. It works basically the same way and they all have the same requirement for wood. Of course, if you want another stove anyway, go for it. You'd be surprised how many people get new stoves every year or two.

There are some workarounds that you can try. There are manufactured wood products like Biobricks and some others that people use to supplement their less than ideal wood. Some use it exclusively if they have to, but I think you could mix it with your other stuff in the right proportions to help a lot. Also, oak is notorious for taking a long time (some even say three years) so maybe you could try another species for awhile also. Splitting the wood small can cut the seasoning time way down as well.

Unless you really want a new stove for other reasons, please be patient.

Again thank you very much for the info. I really would like a higher end stove but realize now its not necessary. I usually rent a log splitter for one weekend to split and stack three cords.... I need to actually buy a splitter and not try to get it all done in one weekend. I need to concentrate on splitting and stacking six cords this year, burn three and next year use the well seasoned wood. Thank you for your knowledge, it prevented years of trial and error. Any suggestions on a good splitter worth buying?

 

[Sprinter]

Again thank you very much for the info. I really would like a higher end stove but realize now its not necessary. I usually rent a log splitter for one weekend to split and stack three cords.... I need to actually buy a splitter and not try to get it all done in one weekend. I need to concentrate on splitting and stacking six cords this year, burn three and next year use the well seasoned wood. Thank you for your knowledge, it prevented years of trial and error. Any suggestions on a good splitter worth buying?

I'm glad we could help on this it's a very common problem.

Try the "Gear" sub-forum here. You'll get more help on splitters than you'll know what to do with.

Also, there is a "Wood Shed" forum here. Lots of info on handling wood from very experienced folks.

 

[Rickb]

Also you dont have to have a splitter to do wood. I do it hand splitting for exercise. I do it over a period. I don't have trees I can cut down so I just watch craigslist and grab free stuff when it pops up if its close to me. Then 2 or 3 times a week I split wood for a hour or so. It's amazing how fast you can get a couple cord done this way.

 

[Sprinter]

Oh, one other thing about dry wood. Besides Biobricks and the like, you could try some ultra dry stuff like used lumber, mill ends, pallet wood, etc to supplement a load.

 

[osagebow]

Get a hold of some black locust if you can - it will be ready next winter (2014-15) and is high grade stuff. Also get any hedgeapple/osage you see. Highest BTU wood, and there is plenty up there in the old farm fence rows.

 

[begreen]

This thread wandered into good advice on wood, but little on the insert. I've moved it into the wood shed for that reason. Robert can you post a new thread about your stove heating needs? The Napoleon 1101 is a small insert. Can your fireplace take a larger unit? What are the fireplace dimensions front and back + depth? Also include info on the area the stove is installed in, size of the area you want to heat, and details on the house insulation.

 

[paul bunion]

Thank you. If your letting it season for 2-3 years is it still only top covered? I may be able to stack it for that long if I set some gravel down near my fence. Your saying the longer its seasoned, the more efficiently it burns?

I read into this that you are stacking your wood on the ground. You should get some pallets to stack your wood on. They do an incredible job of keeping your wood off the wet ground. Some gravel under might increase the life of your pallets, but the pallets are going to allow the bottom of your stack to dry and stay dry because they will allow some airflow under.

 

[Robert Caiati]

I can definitely fit a bigger stove. I always stack my wood on pallets and I want to get gravel just to level off a certain area. I have a 2200' two story. It's 2x6 outside walls with standard insulation from 1973. The big problem is that the fireplace isn't centrally located. There was an addition added in 1974 which is a single story 14x25' room and the fireplace at the far end of that room. I installed a thru-wall aireshare unit two years ago. It seems to work well if the stove is cranking out heat for about 4-hours on high (weekends). The stove has a 120cfm blower on it but in most cases the 'family room' is about 7-10 degrees warmer than the rest of the house. I was thinking a bigger high end stove with a higher CFM blower may be able to circulate the heat a little easier.

I would love to have the time to split by hand but with 4 kids, full time jobs for my wife and I and not to mention many after school activities for the kids, it's next to impossible.

 

[Robert Caiati]

Here is my floor layout......... The red lines on the walls represent windows. Most are double, few are single and one in the family room is a triple. There is also a sliding glass door in the family room on the bottom part of the drawing. Location #1 didn't happen. I only put the airshare in location number 2.

 

[ScotO]

I think your biggest problem has already been addressed here. Get that wood split, stacked, and seasoned as soon as you can, and put it up to season on pallets, stacked neatly, in an airy location. Being you are in Boiling Springs (near Carlisle, I take it), you've got relatively the same climate I have here in central PA (near State College).......damp, rainy springs, hot, humid summers, and super wet falls.....

That said, I only top-cover what I plan on burning that season. I wait til August to top-cover my wood. And I'm three years ahead (actually closer to 4 years ahead) on my wood. That gives the oaks, hickories, and sugar maples plenty of time to season very well.

 

[paul bunion]

Here is my floor layout......... The red lines on the walls represent windows. Most are double, few are single and one in the family room is a triple. There is also a sliding glass door in the family room on the bottom part of the drawing. Location #1 didn't happen. I only put the airshare in location number 2.

View attachment 102093

You might want to try putting in #1 in but running it from the floor of the LR into the family room ceiling. That will create a circular flow for you. Seems to me that the air you push out with #2 is just going to return via the family room opening. My house has a similar layout, with the insert in an isolated room off to the side that can be in the mid 80's while the upstairs bedroom furthest back doesnt get any of the heat. I have thought of doing the wall ducting like you but we just put in central air, so I'm going to get to see if that system can circulate the heat more evenly. Some people say it works real well, others say not at all. Seems to be the dynamics of the house matter the most.

 

[Woody Stover]

Welcome to the forums, Robert!

What is the square footage of the rectangular first-floor area without the family room, and what is the sq.ft. of the family room? It looks like your 1101 may have a hard time if your aim is to heat the entire house, even with dry wood.

As far as the wood, I have mainly Oak here, too. I have a bunch stacked but I want to give it another year to dry as it is split somewhat big and stacked double-row on pallets. In the mean time I've been getting soft (Silver and Red) Maple off-site, since it's about the fastest-drying wood I've found (doesn't burn quite as long as Oak, though.) Black Cherry and White Ash are other woods that will dry pretty well in a shorter time, if not split too big and stacked loosely in single rows so that the wind can blow through the stack.

 

[HDRock]

Briefly,Something I learned here, and found It works VERY well
It is much easier to move cool air because it is more dense and heaver.
Moving cool air is MUCH,MUCH more effective than trying to push hot air

 

[Sprinter]

I'm afraid that you're learning the hard way that stoves are only space heaters. Unfortunately, you are going to have a hard time heating most of the house from that location. The office and dining room are going to get little heat. There are some folks here who have learned to move air around a house and you may want to start a new thread aimed at that. But it is a challenge.