a newb looking at a P38 or other options?

[slow-al]

I'm a newb, I live in Madion Wi. My house is your average 1950's ranch, about 1000 sg/ft. The stove will be used in the basement, the original chimney is unused so that'll be the exhaust. The exterior walls do need insulating but I think that'll be my fall /winter project.

I'm looking a getting a P38, I like the heat range, 7000-38000 btu's, and the fact that it has minimal electronics on it.

I guess that's question #1, is that an appropriate size stove for the area?

#2 Are there other manufacturers making a similar model?

#3 Any recommend dealers in the Madison Wi. area? Any to avoid?

I was quoted $2200 for the stove, $400 for the chimney liner, $650 for install. This is getting pricey.
#4 Is this the going rates?

#5 The local dealer said if I buy the stove from them I can buy pellets at thier cost, ($235 I think it was) or $285 if I bought it elsewhere. I'll need to verify if there's a time limit on this but would you spend more upfront (assuming this dealer is high on his stove price's) to save on fuel.

#6 For thoes that have the P38, if it magically disappeared, would you replace it with another p38 or a different model? Like the p43?

#7 I was told a $45 per year increase on my homeowners, (Pekin insurance). Is this the going rate?

#8 Pellet storage, I have the normal basement, slightly damp. Are pellets prone to absorbing moisture if stored off the floor?

#9 At the end of the season, is it a good idea to empty the hopper or could pellets be left in it?

I appreciate the help and any other info, Thanks Al.

 

[Lousyweather]

1. If you spend laot of time in the basement, its appropriate, although, if you live primarily in the upstairs section, I submit it would be better served placing the P38 upstairs, where you spend your time. Not as much heat loss there, IF the cellar is uninsulated (concrete is a big heatsink).
2. Dont know, sorry.
3. ditto, not from your area.
4. stove in my area, new is $1770, and the dealer includes a ton of pellets. if you do put it upstairs, you can exhaust through the wall.
5. suspect on this one...why would a dealer sell pellets at cost?
6. the p43 is a p38 body with different electronics...autoignites, thermostatically controlled...basically a hybrid p38/p61a....
7. My homeowners insurance didnt go up a penny, they just wanted to ensure it was inspected
8. store the pellets on a pallet in the cellar....my cellar is VERY damp, no problems, and Ive had pellets have their second birthday in my cellar
9. end of season? empty the hooper, do a thorough cleaning, oil everything up, that will ensure a painfree startup in the fall. the folks who have problems are the people who leave pelets in the hopper and dont clean till next fall.

Hope it helps!

 

[imacman]

First of all, welcome to the forum.....lots of nice people here, and lots of info too.

As for your questions:

1 - Yep, good size for what you want to heat

2 - Yes, many other companies make similar size models...Lopi & Avalon make a model that puts out 8000-29,000 btu's/hr, and will heat approx. 500-1600 sq. ft. Remember, don't make the stove too small.....you really don't want to have to run the stove on High all the time.

Also, If I were buying another stove, I'd seriously make sure that it was a multi-fuel unit, that can burn pellets, corn, cherry pits, or whatever is cheapest at the time.

3 - No idea...sorry....as for the install price, that sounds a little high. Buy the pipe yourself from a place like this that includes free shipping: www.dynamitebuys.com/store/cart.php?m=product_list&c=45

or here that is a member/advertiser on this forum too (if you call them, ask for eric, and tell him I said Hi): www.kinsmanstoves.com/chimney.html

And don't accept the first price for the install....get a couple of estimates....search for installers at a place like this: www.stovesdirect.com/installers.php

4 - IMO, I'd buy a good used stove....there are a lot of them available these days on places like Craig's list, eBay, etc.
http://madison.craigslist.org/search/?areaID=165&subAreaID;=&query=pellet+stove&catAbbreviation=sss

5 - That's not a terrible price for pellets, but then again I'm using my experience here in the NE, where they are always higher....It seems I've heard of much lower prices in the Midwest, like $189-219 on the Fuel Price reports on this forum in Wi.

6 - don't know...don't have a Harman

7 - That's about right for Insurance

8 - Yes, they will absorb moisture if stored improperly. Getting them off the floor is key, but you might also want to invest in a small de-humidifier for that area.

9 - A lot of people clean their stoves thoroughly, AND empty the hopper, especially if the house has high humidty levels. Easiest thing is to let the stove burn out all the remaining pellets at the end of the burning season......but that said, I had pellets in the stove all last summer, and they burned just fine when I started it up in October.

Basically, buying a pellet stove and using them is a lot of common sense, and some research.

Good luck.

 

[summit]

P38 was my first pellet stove, and it worked great! the only thing that i wished i had done different was to hook a thermostat to it, so it would regulate itself high to low... I think the dealer is whacking you a bit, as the retail price on a 4" liner 25' is about $400. usually with installation we charge about $850 (includes, liner, pipe to chimney, labor)
the stove itself has an msrp of $2004 on the ytd 2009 price book, and the P43 is $2499.. If you are putting it in the basement, the harman will be the way to go, however, it puts most other companies larger stoves to shame, and the radiant heat you get off the sides of the single wall firebox is something you don't really get with other stoves. also, maintainence and generall friggin with is alot less with the harman... with a hopper extension, you could leave it be for a couple days at a time down there...

 

[slow-al]

First, I appreciate the replies, I've been reading some and think the bottom feed of the harman is really the route I want to go. This is assuming I'm understanding the top feeders correctly, they shut themselves down every few hours and clear the ash from the burn pot then restart? The bottom feed is selfcleaning regarding the ash. Is this a fair understanding?

Summit, you stated that if it's going in the basement the harman is the way to go? Because the harman is a lower maintence unit? Or astetically it looks like a toilet, I never noticed that till I read it here. Also the p38 can be driven by a thermostat? I thought that was only the higher end units.

Macman, I looked at craigslist and found two listed, guess I need more practice. I did find a new Breckwell in Iowa for $1395, remote control, fake logs, nickel finish and warranty, Four hours or so round trip but I'm still stuck on the bottom feed.

Lousyweather, Pellets in a damp cellar for 2 years, I guess i hadn't gotten to the point of how long I can store fuel. Have you noticed any changes in burn or start up?

 

[Lousyweather]

no changes at all...they worked fine...no dehumidifier either...would never stop running if I had one down there!

 

[slow-al]

..no dehumidifier either...would never stop running if I had one down there!

I know how that goes, my dehumidifier runs nonstop, hoping the stove help keep it drier. The spring warmup is the part that kills me, to cool for the dehumidifier to run constantly without freezing up and the start and stop just doesn't keep up with the moisture.

 

[Lousyweather]

high water table here....all while I was building my house there was standing water in the cellarhole, even WITH perimeter drainage working!

 

[Wet1]

First, I appreciate the replies, I've been reading some and think the bottom feed of the harman is really the route I want to go. This is assuming I'm understanding the top feeders correctly, they shut themselves down every few hours and clear the ash from the burn pot then restart? The bottom feed is selfcleaning regarding the ash. Is this a fair understanding?

No, none of them will really "clear the ash". Don't get hung up on the feed type. With that said, the Harman's are are as good and reliable as it gets. They burn very clean, long, not fussy about pellets, go a long time w/o cleaning, and are very reliable.

Also the p38 can be driven by a thermostat? I thought that was only the higher end units.

The P38 can be hooked up to a thermostat, although it will not turn the unit on and off because it lacks the auto ignite feature. The way it works, when it calls for heat the P38 will kick to "turbo mode" (high) and then drop down to what ever you have the feed rate set to for when the thermostat is satisfied. So it basically toggles between high and low (or whatever you have it set to) when hooked up to a stat. A basic system, but it works.

I paid $1495 for my P38 last June, although that was a good deal and right before the demand went through the roof. If I was going to buy another pellet stove (and I wont buy another), the P38 would be at the top of my list... It's a dream compared to my other pellet stove. $2200 for the stove is a little pricey, I'd say around $1800 would be fair for both parties. I don't know what you need for a flue, but $400 is probably on the high side also. Installation is easy, so you might want to consider doing this yourself if you are even remotely handy. It's the perfect size stove for 1000 sq ft. You can store pellets in the basement with no issues. I had close to a ton sitting in my damp basement for about 7 years and they burnt just fine through my P38... so no fears there, just make sure they are off the floor.

 

[imacman]

....No, none of them will really "clear the ash". Don't get hung up on the feed type.

I agree.....there many fine stoves to be had at good prices that aren't bottom feeders.

 

[MCPO]

Personally I really like my used P38 in my finished basement (I paid $500 used with a ton of pellets)
That said I`d never pay $2200 for a stove to heat a basement. Maybe the living space upstairs is worth it though.
I`d instead get a factory refurbished / blemished Englander off Ebay for about a grand (free shipping).

 

[slow-al]

....No, none of them will really "clear the ash". Don't get hung up on the feed type.

I agree.....there many fine stoves to be had at good prices that aren't bottom feeders.

Such as?

I tend to get hung up on things, some aspect or another gets in my head and I'll be stuck, just haven't figured out what it is about the harmans.
Maybe I'll figure it out, maybe not. I am leaning toward the p43 now.

 

[imacman]

No offense to the die-hard Harman fans on the forum, but IMO, they are charging higher $$ due mainly to their "name".

I see MANY, MANY threads on this forum with people asking about problems they have with their Harmans. Is that due to there being so many out there?? I don't know...maybe, or maybe not, but if they're the "best thing since sliced bread" as many would have you believe, then why so many problems?

I bought a dealer USED Avalon Astoria that was in great shape, and I couldn't be happier. Not one single problem with it. Travis Indust. makes good stoves, IMO.

Bottom line for me was what I read about the stove on this forum.....I didn't hear anything really bad, I asked some questions, and made a decision. Getting "hung-up" on one feature of any stove is the same as only looking at one car model because their the only one that has "that great feature"....it's a bad thing to do.

But hey, that's me.......

 

[summit]

[quote author="slow-al" date="1249885969"]
Summit, you stated that if it's going in the basement the harman is the way to go? Because the harman is a lower maintence unit? Or astetically it looks like a toilet, I never noticed that till I read it here. Also the p38 can be driven by a thermostat? I thought that was only the higher end units.


the firebox radiated heat, and also runs a convection fan really well, so you are getting 2 types of heat = good to help warm up cold basement walls. it is lower maint, And yes, it looks like a toilet, but it craps out heat really well, and is easy to clean; like using a nice three ply TP w/ the aloe vera in it (that was cheap humor based on the toilet analogy, sorry). seriously, though; you can run it 1-2 wks on very shoddy pellets, or up to 4-6weeks between cleaning w/ awesome pellets; you should do a little every week, but its nice to know u don't have any ceraboard panels to remove, no hand tools other than the scraper are required, no little passageways to vac out...
The thermostat regulates hi to lo based on where you set it: when tstat calls for heat, the unit turns itself to "turbo" mode.. when its not calling 4 heat, the unit turns itself down to a 3/4 lb per hr feed rate untill the tstat clicks again. it will NOT stop and then reignite itself, however; but every one ever made can be fitted to a two wire millivolt thermostat to achieve a more remote control.

 

[summit]

also, you do not really need all that 4" flex liner if you have a lined chimney already, and it is in good cond.

 

[Wet1]

No offense to the die-hard Harman fans on the forum, but IMO, they are charging higher $$ due mainly to their "name".

I see MANY, MANY threads on this forum with people asking about problems they have with their Harmans. Is that due to there being so many out there?? I don't know...maybe, or maybe not, but if they're the "best thing since sliced bread" as many would have you believe, then why so many problems?

I bought a dealer USED Avalon Astoria that was in great shape, and I couldn't be happier. Not one single problem with it. Travis Indust. makes good stoves, IMO.

Bottom line for me was what I read about the stove on this forum.....I didn't hear anything really bad, I asked some questions, and made a decision. Getting "hung-up" on one feature of any stove is the same as only looking at one car model because their the only one that has "that great feature"....it's a bad thing to do.

But hey, that's me.......

Mac,
Harman easily outsells all the other mid to upper end brands (possibly even more than cheaper Englander (?) which is sold at the big box stores) when it comes to pellet stoves, so it should be no surprise there are a few issues that pop up with them on this board. But when you consider how many more units they sell than everyone else, they are clearly very reliable stoves. As Summit stated, they (and especially the P38) are very simple, rugged, reliable, and well thought out stoves. They will tolerate just about any pellets, they are about as maintenance free as can be expected compared to their peers, and they are quite simple in design meaning they last a long time and are easy to fix should they break. Yes, you do pay a little more for a Harman stove these days, but there's a reason why they easily outsell all of their competitors, and why you pay a little more. Having owned three different pellet stoves, having used many more, in my mind there's Harman and there's the others. As I stated above, if I were going to buy another pellet stove (and I wouldn't), it would certainly be a Harman. Not that there aren't other good stoves on the market, there are, the Harman's are just such a well rounded package with a time tested product and name.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Lousyweather]

right...my 2 cents as well......Most of the units currently produced these days fit their niches quite well.....the Englander, love em or not, do fill a niche as well, for the more price-concious folks. They have better corporate support to the consumer than Harman, but thats out of necessity.....where they are distributed, the salesforce IN GENERAL, lacks much product knowledge, so, Englander has stepped up to the plate to provide what is lacking. As for Harman, they are a more expensive unit due to their functionality, the quality of their components, the expense of trained personnel, and the fact that HHT (Harman's owner) will not allow any dealer to sell their units at less than 10% below MSRP. Who sets MSRP? Harman does. The plethora of other units currently available also fill niches, be it Enviro, Quad (also ownder by HHT), etc. Its been said here many, many times before, but WHERE you buy the unit is as important as WHICH brand you buy. Dont take the stove shop's word....ask around to folks who already own units...those are the folks who will give you the straight poop!

Good luck!

 

[treehackers]

That's a lot of money for a basement heater.

If you are going to place the stove in the basement then spend less money on a stove that puts out the same amount of heat. I put a Big E in my basement - just a plain black box. You can find the Big E on ebay direct from Breckwell for under $1000 delivered.

 

[ducker]

love my p38... if I were to replace it I wold replace it with another. I may look for another bottom feeder, but I wouldn't look for any other type of feed system. I like the idea of a single auger, as well as the new pellets pushing out the old ash from the burn pot. It makes it a lot easier to maintain, as well as if I don't get to it right away/forget about it. It's not going to stop running because the burn pot is full of ash... the ash keeps getting pushed out.

That being said, I doubt I would drop that much to heat a basement though, unless I was planning on spending a lot of time in the basement.

I use mine to heat my living room and the majority of my house in the winter.

 

[slow-al]

I do apprecaite everyone's 2 cents, keep it coming.
The chimney needs a liner, looking in the hole from the old oil burner (poped the cover off) I can see a cracked tile. Last summer was on the roof, though I had seen a shifted tile looking down inside but I never droped a light to be certain.

Another question came to mind, What's the life expectancy of a stove? Assuming the control boards and motors remain available the body should last for decades.

I got a tip from one dealer, when putting a stove in the basement it helps to cut in a vent hole into a room away from the stairs, if your leaving the stairs open to let the heat rise. He uses the 14" square grates, like the old farmhouses had, warm air floats up one and the cool air will fall thru the other.

I have noticed one thing, I've asked a few dealers about the p38's and p43's, a highly recomended stove. If I ask about other units they sell they really don't say a whole lot, I guess if I'm already asking about a higher end stove why stear me towards a more economically priced unit.

 

[imacman]

....I got a tip from one dealer, when putting a stove in the basement it helps to cut in a vent hole into a room away from the stairs, if your leaving the stairs open to let the heat rise. He uses the 14" square grates, like the old farmhouses had, warm air floats up one and the cool air will fall thru the other.

.............I guess if I'm already asking about a higher end stove why stear me towards a more economically priced unit.

As for the idea of cutting a hole in the floor, it has been discussed a lot on this forum, but in general, it doesn't work the way you would think. If you want to heat the upstairs, put a stove upstairs. Otherwise, the stove in the basement will heat the basement nicely. The residual heat that might go up a stairwell or through a grate is minimal.

And if your wondering why the dealer isn't talking much about the other stoves, remember the term "profit margin".

 

[summit]

I do apprecaite everyone's 2 cents, keep it coming.
The chimney needs a liner, looking in the hole from the old oil burner (poped the cover off) I can see a cracked tile. Last summer was on the roof, though I had seen a shifted tile looking down inside but I never droped a light to be certain.

Another question came to mind, What's the life expectancy of a stove? Assuming the control boards and motors remain available the body should last for decades.

I got a tip from one dealer, when putting a stove in the basement it helps to cut in a vent hole into a room away from the stairs, if your leaving the stairs open to let the heat rise. He uses the 14" square grates, like the old farmhouses had, warm air floats up one and the cool air will fall thru the other.

I have noticed one thing, I've asked a few dealers about the p38's and p43's, a highly recomended stove. If I ask about other units they sell they really don't say a whole lot, I guess if I'm already asking about a higher end stove why stear me towards a more economically priced unit.

for all the better features of a harman, i think it is pretty competitive in price... you can get a brckwell, napoleon or st croix for around the same as a p38, but i don't think you will be as happy w/ them.. i have seen original pellet pro harman stoves (the precurser to the 38s) still in working condition after 15 + yrs w/ no major repairs ever made to them... says alot about the design.

 

[Lousyweather]

I know its "been done for years", but dont cut a hole in the floor........GREAT chimney affect if theres ever a fire...a big no-no these days in the code world!

Im at a loss as well as to why the dealer doesnt review the whole line as well....for us, in the overall scheme of things, p38's dont sell anywhere near as well as other Harman units. People want the functionality of the other units. Also, agreed with mac above....put the stove where you spend most of your time....if you dont spend much time int he basement, its a waste!

 

[summit]

....I got a tip from one dealer, when putting a stove in the basement it helps to cut in a vent hole into a room away from the stairs, if your leaving the stairs open to let the heat rise. He uses the 14" square grates, like the old farmhouses had, warm air floats up one and the cool air will fall thru the other.

.............I guess if I'm already asking about a higher end stove why stear me towards a more economically priced unit.

As for the idea of cutting a hole in the floor, it has been discussed a lot on this forum, but in general, it doesn't work the way you would think. If you want to heat the upstairs, put a stove upstairs. Otherwise, the stove in the basement will heat the basement nicely. The residual heat that might go up a stairwell or through a grate is minimal.

And if your wondering why the dealer isn't talking much about the other stoves, remember the term "profit margin".

harman is actually kinda lousy for big profit margins for dealers... its the reputation that sells it for the dealer, not the huge margins...

 

[imacman]

harman is actually kinda lousy for big profit margins for dealers... its the reputation that sells it for the dealer, not the huge margins...

I stand corrected.