any drawback of putting too large of an insert in?

[atom631]

Hi all. Im new to the forum. I am in the market for a wood burning insert for my fireplace. A little background...

I live on Long Island, NY. So typical northeast winters. I just moved into my home in October 2013, so I am not 100% familiar with the place yet, but it seems decently insulated (I moved out from a smaller townhouse that used more oil in milder winters). Currently have oil heat. It was built in 1988. Apx. 1600 sq/foot Ranch with a full finished basement that is apx. 1200 sq/ft. Insert will be installed on the main floor on an external wall, masonry chimney. The room is technically a great room w/ apx 16' cathedral ceilings. Two ceiling fans will help circulate the heat. See picture below for the room. Just to the right of where I took the pic is the hallway to the rest of the home is the return for the CAC. If need be, I will kick that on to pull some heat into the bedrooms down the hall.

My plan is to have the insert be my main source of heat for the winter months, so 24/7 burns from Dec-March is what I am hoping to do. I work long hours and want a unit that I can pack out and get 8-10+hours before reloading...this will ease the burden on my wife of dealing with the stove.

I am leaning towards a PE Summit insert, assuming it fits. From the measurements I took, it will be close. If that doesn't fit then I am either going with a Hearthstone Clydesdale or a PE Alderlea T5.

My concern is that the Summit is rated for 3000 sq/ft, almost double my main floor footage. I think the cathedral ceilings will need to be accounted for additional space and hopefully offset the amount of heat the Summit will put out. I just dont want to purchase the Summit if its going to make my home too hot and even on the lowest settings, not offer me enough control to keep it comfortable.

What do you guys think?


My next question, is anyone has an idea of how I can get some of the heat the insert will put out down to my basement? My CAC doesnt have vents in the basement so that wont work. Something like a wall/floor mounted vent with a fan in it might be a good idea. Any thoughts on this?

Thanks in advance for all the help.

 

[begreen]

I think you'll be ok. The Summit's firebox is pretty flexible at burning partial loads of fuel when the weather is mild. If you like the look of a cast-iron surround, another Canadian stove you might fancy would be the Enviro Boston or Venice 1700 insert. It is 2.5 cu ft. or the Hampton HI300.

 

[Bigg_Redd]

I think the Summit is a lot of stove for 1600 SF even with 16' ceilings.

I am leaning towards a PE Summit insert, assuming it fits. From the measurements I took, it will be close. If that doesn't fit then I am either going with a Hearthstone Clydesdale or a PE Alderlea T5

I don't know the numbers but I'd guess if the Summit won't fit then neither will the Clydesdale. Are you ruling out the Super insert? Same firebox and operation as the T5. You'll get 8+ hours between reloads with the Super/T5.

My next question, is anyone has an idea of how I can get some of the heat the insert will put out down to my basement?

Not going to happen. Getting heat to go upstairs is often quite difficult. Getting it to go downstairs is pretty much impossible.

 

[begreen]

I think he'll be ok if the Summit fits the fireplace and the floorplan is open. He is in the Northeast and that cathedral ceiling will double the room volume. I have a friend up in Concrete, WA heating a well insulated 1600 sf house with a freestanding Summit. Their house has 8-10 ft ceilings depending on the room. That is all they have used for heat for the past 2 years. It does the job fine. I was just up there last weekend and they were heating with just a morning fire every day. When daytime temps are in the low 40's they start burning 24/7. I thought it would be too much stove and advised them to get a Spectrum, but the Summit is doing the job well and much appreciated when temps drop into the teens.

If heat is desired in the basement consider putting another smaller stove down there.

 

[Dix]

Welcome to the forums !! Always nice to see another LI'er here !!

My PE Pacific does a good job of heating the level (1200 SF) of my house that it is on, if the Summit had fit into the FP (interior chimney), I would have gone with it. With this past winter that we had, I would have been really happy with it, I am sure. The Pacific struggled, but mainly got the job done.

One thing I have learned is that heat does NOT move down stairs. Trust me, I've tried. Another stove is the answer there.

The bigger firebox of the Summit will give you flexibility in your fires. You can build a smaller fire when needed, and pack it when you have too.I don't think it's a bad choice.

 

[Grisu]

Do you know how much oil you used last winter, maybe even broken down to how much you needed during the coldest month? Using those numbers you can estimate how much stove you need.

In any case, wood is not like oil that comes delivered in a burnable state at moments notice. Your wood needs to be dry which usually requires to have it split and stacked in your yard for one to three years. Did you already get several cords?

 

[bluedogz]

Do you know how much oil you used last winter, maybe even broken down to how much you needed during the coldest month? Using those numbers you can estimate how much stove you need.

In any case, wood is not like oil that comes delivered in a burnable state at moments notice. Your wood needs to be dry which usually requires to have it split and stacked in your yard for one to three years. Did you already get several cords?

Given this bit, I'd also point out that a larger firebox gives you a lot of freedom to manage heat output. For example, with ideal wood my 30 will heat pretty much all 2700sf of my house, but if the wood is subpar (read- not as dry as it needs to be), the 30's big firebox allows me to supplement with BioBricks or similar and still stay warm. A smaller box would not give you this freedom.IMHO, there's almost no such thing as "too big" a stove. You can build a smaller fire in a bigger box, but absolutely not the other way around.

 

[atom631]

thats for all the info. this was very helpful. I think I will stick with the PE Summit. From everything Ive read, the warranty, etc..it seems to be a great unit for a very good price.

I don't know the numbers but I'd guess if the Summit won't fit then neither will the Clydesdale. Are you ruling out the Super insert? Same firebox and operation as the T5. You'll get 8+ hours between reloads with the Super/T5.

I was told the Clydesdale is adjustable. The adjustment range looks like its well within the range I need to fit. As for the measurements of my opening, I have plenty of room, width, height, depth. The problem is the summit needed somthing like 26" at the back. My fireplace is only like 22" at the back..however, it is like 3-4" deeper than needed. So I think it will fit. Gonna be close.

Welcome to the forums !! Always nice to see another LI'er here !!

Great seeing another LI'er here. Where did you purchase your PE? I am working the folks over at Main Street Fireplace in Patchogue. They seem very nice and willing to work with me.

Do you know how much oil you used last winter, maybe even broken down to how much you needed during the coldest month? Using those numbers you can estimate how much stove you need.

In any case, wood is not like oil that comes delivered in a burnable state at moments notice. Your wood needs to be dry which usually requires to have it split and stacked in your yard for one to three years. Did you already get several cords?

Looking over my oil bill - I got my first fill in this house on 11-25. Between then and right now, I have used 720 gallons. I am sure the oil company will be by here any day to give me more. I would say a safe number is 850 gallons between 11-25 and 5-25. I will probably use around 1100-1200 gallons for the year. How can I use this number to determine what size stove?

I have around 3/4 of a cord that I bought last year in hopes to use it in my fireplace...but stoking the fire every 10 minutes was annoying. As for purchasing cords - Im not sure if this is for every area, but here on LI many people offer pre-aged wood that is usually 2+ years old. Either way I have a really good hook for great wood for very cheap.

 

[begreen]

I think you will be happy with your choice. 850 gallons of oil = roughly 5 cords of wood. You control the amount of heat the stove will put out by the amount of wood you put in. The Summit will burn well and cleanly on just 4-5 splits.

 

[Dix]

Doing The Dixie Eyed Hustle said: ↑
Welcome to the forums !! Always nice to see another LI'er here !!

Great seeing another LI'er here. Where did you purchase your PE? I am working the folks over at Main Street Fireplace in Patchogue. They seem very nice and willing to work with me.

From the same place. I was happy with the deal, etc.

Start getting firewood NOW. What is usually advertised here as seasoned, is really not. Get it, and get it stacked, with a lot of air flow.

 

[smokedragon]

there's almost no such thing as "too big" a stove. You can build a smaller fire in a bigger box, but absolutely not the other way around.

+1 to that blue.

If an 8" liner would fit through my existing chimney, the first line of my signature would look a little different

 

[Grisu]

Looking over my oil bill - I got my first fill in this house on 11-25. Between then and right now, I have used 720 gallons. I am sure the oil company will be by here any day to give me more. I would say a safe number is 850 gallons between 11-25 and 5-25. I will probably use around 1100-1200 gallons for the year. How can I use this number to determine what size stove?

BeGreen already gave you the result but to show you how to get to that number:
One gl oil = 140,000 BTU. Oil boiler at 80% efficiency = 112,000 BTU of heat per gallon. It sounds like you have oil hot water, so let's assume you used 700 gallons for heat this winter. 700 gl * 112,000 BTU = 78.4 million BTU
For the wood: 1 cord mixed hardwood approx. 23 mill. BTU, burned at 70% efficiency equals 16.1 mill. effective BTU per cord.
78.4 divided by 16.1 = 4.9 cords
Given that this winter was rather cold, you may need only about 4 cords in a "normal" winter. I would still try to get 5 cords for the next one. Does not hurt to have more; any wood left can be burned the following year. When you need to burn 4 to 5 cords per winter, a stove with a 3 cu ft firebox sounds about the right size. If the Summit should not fit, I would not recommend the T5 and even the Clydesdale may be slightly on the short side although would probably still work for you. Check back if you have problems with the install of the Summit as we can probably point you to another large insert that will fit. Some tips for the install:
- For an exterior chimney an insulated liner is almost a must. Draft will be better and you will get less accumulation of creosote.
- For retaining the heat, have a block-off plate installed: https://www.hearth.com/talk/wiki/make-a-damper-sealing-block-off-plate/ Stuff also first some Roxul insulation up there, before putting the plate in.
- You may not have enough space, but putting some Roxul behind and next to the insert may reduce your heat-loss to the outside: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/finally-got-around-to-insulating-my-fireplace.75755/
- Have you talked to your insurance company yet? Most are ok with inserts but it should be put into your policy. They may also require an inspection of the install.
- How tall is your chimney? I think the Summit requires 15 ft although you may get away with less. I have only 13 ft for its smaller brother the Super and the draft is fine. Still, you don't want to go much below that.

I have around 3/4 of a cord that I bought last year in hopes to use it in my fireplace...but stoking the fire every 10 minutes was annoying. As for purchasing cords - Im not sure if this is for every area, but here on LI many people offer pre-aged wood that is usually 2+ years old. Either way I have a really good hook for great wood for very cheap.

It is rare that firewood sellers really sell seasoned wood. Most of the time they have only logs sitting there and cut and split them as needed. However, that wood (although often advertised as "seasoned") is still as wet as the day the tree was felled. In order to dry, the wood has to be split and stacked in a sunny and windy location for one to three years depending on the wood species. When calling around, ask how long the wood has been cut, split and stacked in the open. I doubt you will find a place that has done that for more then a few months at best. In any case, I would suggest getting the wood now, to stack it up in your yard. Ask specifically for ash as that has a relatively low moisture content to begin with. Covering the top, single rows, loose stacking to allow lots of air movement and splitting thick pieces smaller will help. Should it not be quite ready next winter, you can supplement with compressed wood logs like Ecobricks or Biobricks or dried wood like lumber scraps.

It would also not hurt to get the wood for the following winter (2015/16) already that it has time to dry over two summers. Some dense species like oak need two to three years to achieve the desired 20% or less moisture content.

Don't take the importance of dry wood too lightly. Most of the problems that people new to burning wood have are due to wet wood.

 

[atom631]

again...thanks everyone.

A little more info: I actually measured my cathedral ceilings...they are only 13' at the tallest. The room is about 39'L x 13'W. With my little bar cutout, I'm looking at only 525 Square feet. I still have a living room, hallway, 3 bedrooms and 2 baths. That equals the 1500+ or so square feet.

Im back to worrying that the Summit will be too large and really bake out the area in the picture. How well do you think the air will flow to the rest of the house? I mentioned the CAC fan I can use, but will I need to rely on that? My concern is I will just be offsetting oil costs with electric costs ( I know the fan will be cheaper than oil, but still a concern).

The oil usage I gave above included my basement, which seems like will still need to stay as oil until I can get another stove down there. So I think I probably used a little less than originally thought.

Also, good notes on gathering wood now. As soon as the unit is installed (whichever I go with), I am going to buy 4 cords.My only issue is that I only have around a 12'x12' area that I can store the wood. This comes out to a little over 4 cords. I can probably make a 5th cord work by keep 1/2 in my garage and another 1/2 elsewhere. I dont think I will be able to gather more wood for future winters...so I will have to do my homework and find a reliable and reputable company that actually sells pre-seasoned and split wood. As I mentioned above, I have a guy that came recommended from two people. They are extremely happy with him...so I will be ordering from him.

 

[Grisu]

You don't need to bake yourself out of that room since you will control the amount of heat the insert will put out. Just load less wood and burn only two times a day and you will be fine. Now, that is not the most efficient way of using the insert and you are spending extra money on something you may not really need. If you think that maybe 1/4 of your oil heat went to the basement, you will only need to burn about 3 to 3.5 cords in a normal winter. For that a larger medium-sized insert would probably be enough. The Hearthstone Clydesdale would fall into that category, the Enviro 1700 series (many happy owners here), or the Osburn 2000 or Matrix (ditto). A new model would be the PE Neo 2.5, which uses the same baffle design as the Summit.

For heat distribution you can try the CAC and I doubt its power consumption will be high enough to reduce savings from replacing the oil heat considerably. A small fan at the end of a corridor on the floor blowing cold air towards the stove room can also help getting a convective loop going. That power consumption will be hardly noticeable in your electricity bill.

When the wood gets delivered, split a few pieces in half and press the electrodes of a moisture meter into the fresh surface along the grain. For truly seasoned wood it should read below 20%, although if it is below 30% you may get it there drying it during the summer.

 

[Dix]

If you are definatley going to do this, get the firewood NOW. and get it stacked so it has time to season.

This is mucho importante!!

I just looked at your picture.... those 2 ceiling fans set on "down" will move the heat down into the room, thus helping it get down the hallway & to the other bedrooms. It takes time for the warm air to move through the house, and also to get the thermal mass of the house warm.

 

[atom631]

So they came and measured my fireplace and did an inspection of the chimney. They said every looked good and the summit will fit, but it will be tight. So that is good news.

I asked if they install a block off plate and they told me they fully insulate the flu area right above the stove and at the top of the chimney. He ensured me when they are done there will be no airflow at at all in the chimney. They don't insulate around the stove either and he said either way the summit will be a pretty tight fit and not much room for insulation.

His thoughts after look at my whole house that the summit would be a good fit. It will get the main area nice and warm and between the fans and cac return I shouldn't have much problem getting it down the hall and into the bedrooms.

 

[Dix]

Give us a floor plan, please.

Plain, drawn out on paper, will work.

Get your firewood !

 

[Hogwildz]

Insulation does not block air flow.
Insist the block off plate be installed.

 

[Ram 1500 with an axe...]

Bigger is better if your relying on an insert to heat your home 24/7 in the winter, anything less, you will be kicking yourself......

 

[DodgyNomad]

In response to the OP title, yes there are drawbacks to going too big. Having to choke down your stove all the time creates additional creosote, in addition to often being too hot in your house, especially during shoulder season. Picking the right size stove for your application is a lot better than a stove that's too large or small that you're often trying to compensate with.

 

[begreen]

Choosing a "right size" stove is a bit more difficult, particularly if one lives in an area with a wide outdoor temperature range or one has a house that has a high heat loss. A 2 cu ft stove may work fine for the 15-40 range, but could need supplemental heat when it gets below 15. The problem is some folks don't have a backup source (or refuse to use it). A 3 cu ft stove may need a smaller fuel load for the 35-40 range, but can be ideal for the 0-35 range. The main difference is that with good dry wood one can run the 3 cu ft stove like a 2 cu ft stove by simply loading in less fuel. The reverse is not true with a smaller stove. I know, we tried it before finally going to a larger stove. Now if the installation is in an area where the average winter outdoor temperature range was between 30-50, then yes, one would probably be choking down the stove a lot. But for most people here, that is not the case.

Another variable that requires a stove capable of a wide range of output is a home that has a high heat loss. This is our case. We live in an old farmhouse with too much glass area. Houses with cathedral ceilings (higher cu ftg to heat), with poor sealing, low insulation, etc. can also need a larger reserve capacity. It's a myth is that the stove will need to be choked down all the time. This is either a fault of the installation (poor draft) or the person running the stove. When conditions don't warrant the full output of the stove just load less wood. Our 3 cu ft stove runs quite cleanly on 4-5 splits which is about 1/3 its capacity. This is how we run it in milder weather. When the house is warm enough we simply let the fire go out. The flue stays clean, there's good secondary burn and there's no smoke is coming from the chimney. We have friends that heat a smaller, well insulated home with the same 3 cu ft firebox, 24/7. This is their sole source of heat. The electric furnace has been turned off for the past 2 years. They do a brisk morning fire burning a partial load during the shoulder season and then let the stove go out. We just cleaned their chimney for the first time in 2 yrs and got about a cup of soot.

Some other things that will affect the appropriateness of a larger stove are room/area size, convective or radiant stove, the ability for heat to easily convect throughout the house. In a small room that only has a single door a large stove could be overwhelming, regardless of home size. But the same stove in a house with a more open floorplan it could be fine.

So, while I agree that go large is not always the best advice, there are many cases where it is a good decision, particularly for those that live in a northern climate or that have a less than ideally insulated house. If the house is very well insulated and the heat loss is low, then a smaller heat source or a stove that can consistently put out a low amount of heat cleanly, will be a better fit. This could be a cat stove, particularly if the goal is to heat 24/7.

 

[dafattkidd]

Choosing a "right size" stove is a bit more difficult, particularly if one lives in an area with a wide outdoor temperature range or one has a house that has a high heat loss. A 2 cu ft stove may work fine for the 15-40 range, but need supplemental heat when it gets below 15. Some folks don't have a backup source or refuse to use it. A 3 cu ft stove may need a smaller fuel load for the 35-40 range, but can be ideal for the 0-35 range. The main difference is that with good dry wood one can run the 3 cu ft stove like a 2 cu ft stove by simply loading in less fuel. The reverse is not true with a smaller stove. I know, we tried it before finally going to a larger stove. Now if the installation is in an area where the average winter outdoor temperature range was between 30-50, then yes, one would probably be choking down the stove a lot. But for most people here, that is not the case.

Another variable that requires a stove capable of a wide range of output is a home that has a high heat loss. This is our case. We live in an old farmhouse with too much glass area. Houses with cathedral ceilings (higher cu ftg to heat), with poor sealing, low insulation, etc. can also need a larger reserve capacity. It's a myth is that the stove will need to be choked down all the time. This is either a fault of the installation (poor draft) or the person running the stove. When conditions don't warrant the full output of the stove just load less wood. Our 3 cu ft stove runs quite cleanly on 4-5 splits which is about 1/3 its capacity. This is how we run it in milder weather. When the house is warm enough we simply let the fire go out. The flue stays clean, there's good secondary burn and there's no smoke is coming from the chimney. We have friends that heat a smaller, well insulated home with the same 3 cu ft firebox, 24/7. This is their sole source of heat. The electric furnace has been turned off for the past 2 years. They do a brisk morning fire burning a partial load during the shoulder season and then let the stove go out. We just cleaned their chimney for the first time in 2 yrs and got about a cup of soot.

Some other things that will affect the appropriateness of a larger stove are room/area size, convective or radiant stove, the ability for heat to easily convect throughout the house. In a small room that only has a single door a large stove could be overwhelming, regardless of home size. But the same stove in a house with a more open floorplan it could be fine.

So, while I agree that go large is not always the best advice, there are many cases where it is a good decision, particularly for those that live in a northern climate or that have a less than ideally insulated house. If the house is very well insulated and the heat loss is low, then a smaller heat source or a stove that can consistently put out a low amount of heat cleanly, will be a better fit. This could be a cat stove, particularly if the goal is to heat 24/7.

Welcome to the forum 631. When I was looking this was the same advice begreen gave me, and it was sound advice. I heat about 1700sf with a 3.2 cf beast of an insert. I usually only have to fill the firebox partially, but love the extra firepower when it's super cold. This past winter I was so glad to have the extra capacity in the firebox. We burn 24/7 and do not ever need to turn run the oil burner. To be honest, we do run the oil burner once in a while if my wife is too busy, or just doesn't feel like loading the stove before I get home from work. But if we both were super diligent, we would never need to run the boiler. The 3.2 cf insert can keep our house above 70 even in the sustained cold we had this past winter. I hope that's helpful. Regardless of which unit you get, I'm sure you'll get weirdly addicted to wood burning. Good luck!

 

[atom631]

Give us a floor plan, please.

Plain, drawn out on paper, will work.

Get your firewood !

Attached is my floorplan. Its not to scale, I just did this quick in Visio.

Doing the Dixie Eyed Hustle - did you have Main St Fireplace install your stove? After the installer left, I spoke to them on the phone regarding the block off plate and they told me they have never installed one. They said the installer probably would do it, but it would be extra. They feel there is no reason for one as the liner is fully insulated and as I mentioned, they insulate the top of the chimney and the bottom by the damper. I asked if they used Roxaul and they said its standard insulation.

So now I am unsure what to do here. Im 95% certain Im going with the Summit. They are one of the only authorized PE dealers on the Island. The assured me I would be more than happy, that they've installed thousands of units and never had a block off plate even requested.

 

[avsmusic1]

I'm in a similar situation with the blockoff plate. My retailer/installer both insisted it wouldn't be necessary, but they said they would do it for a little extra $$ and experts here all seem to swear by them. Long story short- I'm almost certain I'm going to have them do it for the marginal cost difference. The installer was tossing around numbers like $100 and at that price it seems like I'd be foolish not to have it taken care of. It may not be necessary, but if it's impact and inexpensive then it's an easy decision.

Side note - I just looked at your picture again and had a thought - anyone care to weigh in on the proximity of the TV to the fireplace? Will that be an issue?

 

[atom631]

TV will definitely be an issue. Im going to get a corner wall mount and put it up on the wall. It will then be around 4 away and behind the stove.