Anyone have experience installing Roth Tanks?

[peakbagger]

I picked up used Roth tank today. It was removed from a basement. It looks to me like its missing one gasket on the piping. I got the manual and it refers to a tank base and this tank did not come with one and no marks or trace that this tank had been on one. Its the LH version that is bit shorter. It looks pretty simple to build one If I had dimensions. Ideally a picture of the base would be great. If not, is it pan that support the entire bottom plus short bent sections up the sides?. Or is it just the side plates?

 

[Brian26]

I picked up used Roth tank today. It was removed from a basement. It looks to me like its missing one gasket on the piping. I got the manual and it refers to a tank base and this tank did not come with one and no marks or trace that this tank had been on one. Its the LH version that is bit shorter. It looks pretty simple to build one If I had dimensions. Ideally a picture of the base would be great. If not, is it pan that support the entire bottom plus short bent sections up the sides?. Or is it just the side plates?

I had one installed a few years ago. Here is a picture of the base. It looks like you can buy it online for $75.

2335000743 Base DWT 1000LH $75.14

Roth - DWT1000LH - 275 Gallon Double-Wall Storage Tank

Roth 275 gallon low height double-wall storage tank, steel outer tank, Polyethylene inner tank, for heating oil, DEF, diesel and bio fuels.

westechequipment.com

 

[peakbagger]

Thanks, I found one on line also after I posted. Roth normally will only sell through "authorized dealers" but expect the online dealers have more flexibility.

It is interesting that the unit is labeled not to refill with heating oil from the old tank. I have 100 gallons I need to move around to do the swap and plan to filter it with a fine filter every time I move it and give it dose of Biobore before going in the tank.

I dont see anyone selling the gaskets for the fuel connections but expect I can make one up.

I have seen a few older installs in industrial locations and have seen the bases corroded. They were in areas where the floor was always wet and possibly chemicals on the floor. I will probably put down a strip of UHMW under the base.

Now I need to collect the materials to overhead the line as the old one is partially under the floor (in a PVC sleeve) but itis not in a good spot.

 

[Brian26]

Here is the fuel connections on the tank. Looks like standard flare fittings. I have an overhead line with a tigerloop on the end. Just install one of those and then you get the 10 micron filter spin on filter. The consensus online seems to be you will never have to worry about a plugged nozzle with one. They even have a 10 micro spin on filter that can supposedly remove water now as well.

I wouldnt worry about the old oil especially if your going to filter it. Roths are rated for all kinds of chemicals and oils with the plastic inner tank. Oil burners usually aren't to fussy with fuel quality either. The main issue is those old wool filters that did very little filtering and sent all that sediment to the nozzle. That issue is gone with a 10 micron filter. They are also easy and quick and clean to change out compared to the old style.

 

[hockeypuck]

Nice set up @Brian26. I had a tech tell me my old tank was ok for another 5 or so years. They did an ultrasonic test on it. It was installed in 1993. The above intrigues me. He did say there was a lot of sludge on the bottom of it based on the condition of my filter and I only use 500 gallons a year. But I skipped one year of service so the filter saw 1000 gallons. How often do you all change the filter? I guess the hardest part is filling up the new one before spinning it back on?

 

[peakbagger]

My first tank was installed in 1988 and used for primary heating until about 6 years ago. It is now definitely a back up fuel source. The quality of home heating oil has changed dramatically with the swap to ultralow sulfur oil in most New England states several years ago. Many firms advertise that they add detergent to their heating oil and usually that detergent is a bit of biodiesel" Nevertheless, the sludge remains from the past and the tank stil is vented to the outdoors so moisture build up inside the tank occurs. I have a newer tank next to it but it predates the double bottom or secondary containment mandates. The temptation is just pull the original tank (now more than 30 years old and just move the newer tank in place. If I do not use the Roth now I will have a use for it in new house. The original concept with two tanks was to fill up once a year when oil was cheap and avoid a winter fill up. Once I went with solar hot water and switched my boiler to cold start my yearly usage went down and when I started burnign wood with wood stove it went way down. Once I got the wood boiler setup the thermal storage and got a minisplit for shoulder seasons, I stopped burning oil, but in very cold weather I cant trust the minisplit to keep the entire house above freezing plus insurance companies require a "permanent heating system".

The issue coming soon is there is a good chance that heating oil is going to be mandated to have a biodiesel blended with, biodiesel blends are fine for new systems but the biodiesel has a "detergent" action on old sludge. Talk to many service techs and they claim that they see a lot of plugged nozzles and service calls after a switch to a blend and many recommend changing out the old tank. A friend went through that and he went through a couple of years of issues until the tank was changed. A former coworker went to 100% biodiesel for his house and definitely had issues. He was on the road that first winter he had switched and had to talk his then pregnant wife over the phone into changing a nozzle on cold day in VT with no heat and a couple of toddlers wandering around. It wasnt sludge with his setup if was that at the end of firing cycle the residual biodisel in the burner tip would char from residual heat in the boiler, thus plugging the nozzle. We lost touch after the company we worked for self destructed, but I think he was looking into a device that would pull a small suction downstream of the oil pump and upstream of the nozzle at the end of each firing cycle, the supposedly would keep the charring from happening as there was no fuel in tip. Some folks also claim that biodiesel has a higher potential for biological activity which can cause filter issue.

 

[Brian26]

My first tank was installed in 1988 and used for primary heating until about 6 years ago. It is now definitely a back up fuel source. The quality of home heating oil has changed dramatically with the swap to ultralow sulfur oil in most New England states several years ago. Many firms advertise that they add detergent to their heating oil and usually that detergent is a bit of biodiesel" Nevertheless, the sludge remains from the past and the tank stil is vented to the outdoors so moisture build up inside the tank occurs. I have a newer tank next to it but it predates the double bottom or secondary containment mandates. The temptation is just pull the original tank (now more than 30 years old and just move the newer tank in place. If I do not use the Roth now I will have a use for it in new house. The original concept with two tanks was to fill up once a year when oil was cheap and avoid a winter fill up. Once I went with solar hot water and switched my boiler to cold start my yearly usage went down and when I started burnign wood with wood stove it went way down. Once I got the wood boiler setup the thermal storage and got a minisplit for shoulder seasons, I stopped burning oil, but in very cold weather I cant trust the minisplit to keep the entire house above freezing plus insurance companies require a "permanent heating system".

The issue coming soon is there is a good chance that heating oil is going to be mandated to have a biodiesel blended with, biodiesel blends are fine for new systems but the biodiesel has a "detergent" action on old sludge. Talk to many service techs and they claim that they see a lot of plugged nozzles and service calls after a switch to a blend and many recommend changing out the old tank. A friend went through that and he went through a couple of years of issues until the tank was changed. A former coworker went to 100% biodiesel for his house and definitely had issues. He was on the road that first winter he had switched and had to talk his then pregnant wife over the phone into changing a nozzle on cold day in VT with no heat and a couple of toddlers wandering around. It wasnt sludge with his setup if was that at the end of firing cycle the residual biodisel in the burner tip would char from residual heat in the boiler, thus plugging the nozzle. We lost touch after the company we worked for self destructed, but I think he was looking into a device that would pull a small suction downstream of the oil pump and upstream of the nozzle at the end of each firing cycle, the supposedly would keep the charring from happening as there was no fuel in tip. Some folks also claim that biodiesel has a higher potential for biological activity which can cause filter issue.

Here in CT they just passed a law that as of July 1st all home heating oil has to contain 5% biodiesel with an increase every year. By 2035 the law mandates heating oil to be a 50/50 blend. My oil furnace is my backup heat source and to maintain insurance as you pointed out. The plan is to run the tank dry and then convert to biodiesel. The port in New Haven has the largest biodiesel plant in New England so biodiesel is readily available locally. The Roth tank and tigerloop are both biodiesel compatible and I have access to a combustion analyzer.

 

[peakbagger]

If you have the Spin on filter included with the Roth make sure you swap it over to the biodiesel compatible filter. My guess is if you already have a Roth tank it is not that old and shouldn't have the sludge carryover issue. BTW, burning biodiesel usually increases NOx slightly over fossil fuel. It is not regulated for small units so not an issue but a minor tradeoff. Some folks recommend dosing it with Biobore or equivalent as it can be a bit more problematic with biological contamination, but my experience is boat owners seem to be the ones that have that issue along with rarely used heavy equipment.

The other caveat is that older Roth tanks used a flexible pickup hose instead of a hard piped pickup. If you do have the old style, the biodiesel could soften the hose causing it to collapse.

 

[Brian26]

If you have the Spin on filter included with the Roth make sure you swap it over to the biodiesel compatible filter. My guess is if you already have a Roth tank it is not that old and shouldn't have the sludge carryover issue. BTW, burning biodiesel usually increases NOx slightly over fossil fuel. It is not regulated for small units so not an issue but a minor tradeoff. Some folks recommend dosing it with Biobore or equivalent as it can be a bit more problematic with biological contamination, but my experience is boat owners seem to be the ones that have that issue along with rarely used heavy equipment.

The other caveat is that older Roth tanks used a flexible pickup hose instead of a hard piped pickup. If you do have the old style, the biodiesel could soften the hose causing it to collapse.

I'm using a Westwood epoxy coated spin on filter that is rated for biodiesel. My installer mentioned the issues with the rubber pickup hose on the Roth tanks and they now use copper.

Westwood F100-10 Spin-On Oil Filter Element For F100 Spin-On Fuel Filters

Introducing the FIRST EPOXY COATED UL LISTED SPIN-ON!
• 25% More Capacity - Highest in their class
• Highest UL Approved Pressure & Flow Rate in their class!
• UL Listed in US and Canada!
• Seamless one piece drawn steel canister
• EPOXY COATED inside
• High Efficiency Filtration - 26 GPH, 40 PSI, 10 Micron Filter Media
• BIOFUELS COMPATIBLE

 

[hockeypuck]

How many existing home heating systems are they going to destroy with these biodiesel mandates? Its sad really.

 

[peakbagger]

If the blends are brought in very slowly it should not be a big issue. Systems are not destroyed, they just are more subject to plugging. Just means filters need to be changed more often or upgraded.

 

[Brian26]

If the blends are brought in very slowly it should not be a big issue. Systems are not destroyed, they just are more subject to plugging. Just means filters need to be changed more often or upgraded.

I think some states like Vermont are starting to mandate tank inspections/replacements. I paid $2600 for my Roth tank installed and inspected by the town. I think it even came with a couple million dollar insurance policy from Roth. Money well spent compared to having an old steel tank leak in my basement... I have heard stories of 6 figure cleanup costs when 200+ gallons of oil leaks out in your basement...

 

[peakbagger]

This may be helpful for some folks. https://www.maine.gov/dep/waste/publications/check-your-tank.html

Number 4 is pretty much the standard on typical oil tanks installed for decades. It almost ensures water and sludge buildup at the bottom of the tank. Some installers intentionally sloped the tank away from the outlet while others sloped towards the outlet and in many case they just put the legs level and hoped the slab was level.