All things being equal (length, diameter of pipe, etc) are all liners for fireplace inserts of similar quality? I don't know anything about this topic, and while I've done a lot of research about various manufacturers and their models of stove inserts, I've given relatively little thought to this part of the equation. Now that I'm on the verge of buying, I'm worried that I may have given short shrift to a crictical element. I've noticed references to flex lingers; are their rigid ones? Different materials or gauges of steel? What, if any, are the considerations? Help!
are all ss liners created (more or less) equal?
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having recently been through this - yes there are different types of materials and thicknesses. 316ti stainless steel (titanium reinforced ss that is) seems to be the material of choice. Yes different manufactures make different thicknesses I've only seen .005-.007. Also some, Ventinox (sp?) makes their liner one continuous welded seam while others have crimped seams along the way. There is also rigid liner which comes insulated or uninsulated - these are more expensive and come in 1'-4' sections where as flex liner is one long piece. Of course, you have to have a straight run for rigid.
Myself, I bought a forever flex chimney which is what all the 3 stove shops in my area use. I got it online from chimneylinerinc.com
Doing a search for chimney liner on here could give you Too Much Information, but that can be a good thing sometimes. Do you know the current status of your current chimney? - lined/unlined, condition of tiles if lined, interior/exterior, length, straight run/bends.... That needs to be answered first in order for folks here to give you more relevant info.
Myself, I bought a forever flex chimney which is what all the 3 stove shops in my area use. I got it online from chimneylinerinc.com
Doing a search for chimney liner on here could give you Too Much Information, but that can be a good thing sometimes. Do you know the current status of your current chimney? - lined/unlined, condition of tiles if lined, interior/exterior, length, straight run/bends.... That needs to be answered first in order for folks here to give you more relevant info.
6" x 20' kit (cap, top plate) cost $385 with free shipping and yes I did the install myself - but note, I have a very low slope roof and the chimney is in the center of the house so there was plenty of room for me, my friend, and the 20' liner. Also, my chimney is a straight shot with only one bend at the smoke shelf to center it on the stove. So, relatively, it was pretty easy, and perhaps easier than most installs would be.
I would guess that my chimney (which is straight and on an exterior wall) is in fair condition. I have not burned in it since buying the home two years ago because I was not familiar with its use/maintenance history and it had been converted to gas at some point. It doesn't seem ready to fall down, but I would believe that some of the terra cotta inside is cracked or missing and the damper over the flue is broken from its mounting (which will save trouble removing it when cutting the flue wider for the liner). I figured that it would be stupid to spend money to refurb the fireplace/chimney only to waste the heat when I could apply that money toward something that would actually help my with the gas bill.
for the most part....or most chimney liners the same.... unfortunately yes... some say that .006 is better then .005 but really their is no noticeable difference..... if everyone thought there was then why would people even use liners when rigid pipe is 24 guage i.e. .024. Also between crimp and weld their isn't much different.... welded flexible pipes have their problems as well with welds that aren't spot on causing holes in pipes... Some of the pointers in buying a liner, is first what suits you, do the other components in the kit match the liner and what your home needs are.... how does the company service you and how will your relationship grow with your chimney specialist... We've been making pipe for 20 years and are very good at it.... if you have any questions about flexible or rigid pipe, please do not hesitate to ask me...
There are vast differences in construction, thickness (as much as 5x or more), etc.
There is such thing as rigid, it is how we used to do most chimneys - rigid, and then perhaps some flex at the bottom. A smooth wall liner will last longer - draft better, etc.
But no doubt that the price and ease of flex is a BIG draw. Most use flex these days for that reason.
Stainless is expensive - it obviously will cost more to buy 5x as much weight of it - for instance 24 ga stainless rigid, as opposed to .005 flex.
Not pushing for one or the other - most folks end up with the lowest price per foot when DIY. Some sweeps do push better grades...others do not. This is a general statement, but I do like Heat-fab rigid and Ventinox flex for a number of reasons including a history spanning many decades. Also, I think Ventinox has been around Europe even longer and is welded, while many others are just pressed together in a spiral.
There is such thing as rigid, it is how we used to do most chimneys - rigid, and then perhaps some flex at the bottom. A smooth wall liner will last longer - draft better, etc.
But no doubt that the price and ease of flex is a BIG draw. Most use flex these days for that reason.
Stainless is expensive - it obviously will cost more to buy 5x as much weight of it - for instance 24 ga stainless rigid, as opposed to .005 flex.
Not pushing for one or the other - most folks end up with the lowest price per foot when DIY. Some sweeps do push better grades...others do not. This is a general statement, but I do like Heat-fab rigid and Ventinox flex for a number of reasons including a history spanning many decades. Also, I think Ventinox has been around Europe even longer and is welded, while many others are just pressed together in a spiral.
Well, I wasn't intending to do it myself. Rather, I was going to have the dealer do it. That's what got me going on this topic. I was considering all the variables (models, dealers' reputations and my intuition about them, price, etc.) when I realized that all of them were quoting prices for the liner kit without telling me anything about the attributes of the liners themselves. Now I fear that I have overlooked a signifcant element of the equation. Unfortunately, I don't know enough about liners to understand the differences. So, if I ask questions of the dealers, I may not know what to do with the answers. For instance, suppose one of them says "We use Acme brand flex." Well, what good does that do me if I have never heard of Acme? Also, what if Dealer A quotes a price for flex and Dealer B has a higher quote for rigid. Maybe rigid has greater benefits and is therefore worth the inceased price asked by B; but just how much more is it worth?
The whole thing is becoming quite bewildering. Rarely have I made such a signifcant purchase involving an item with which I have so little familiarity. My wife is growing frustrated with my vacillating on making a decision.
The whole thing is becoming quite bewildering. Rarely have I made such a signifcant purchase involving an item with which I have so little familiarity. My wife is growing frustrated with my vacillating on making a decision.
I think the main thing is that you are getting what you pay for - if the price is reasonable, then the thinner and non-welded liners are A-OK. But if you are getting charged premium prices for the thinnest material, that may be questionable.
The main cast of characters in liners are Copperfield (homesaver), Olympia (forever and some other names), Ventinox and then some other players like National, Magnaflex, etc.....
I know it is frustrating, and when I was a retailer I probably would have been mad at a customer who probed too much - but now that I know that some of these flex liners have failed in the field (within 10 years), I think a bit differently. For instance, they will all toss around warranty length, but what good does replacement material do you when you have to spend a grand to replace it later?
As a consumer, I might be happy with most of the liner brands out there. But back me against a wall and ask "what if it was a tall chimney, a steep roof and you were going to stay in the house forever" and you start to see me lean toward heat-fab rigid and ventinox flex due to track record. Ventinox is a client of mine, but heat-fab is not....and these recs have nothing to do with that (they don't pay me enough!)...Copperfield makes some decent products also, but they make so many types and thicknesses and "improved", that it is hard to keep up......
The entire equation always has to be weighed. In the case of our store, no one ever asked much because we were there for 20 years and had the reputation of being top-notch. If a liner had failed, we certainly would have eaten some of the labor to replace (ourselves) even if not covered by warranty.
So if the dealer is good - maybe you should just let them do their thing and rest easy.
The main cast of characters in liners are Copperfield (homesaver), Olympia (forever and some other names), Ventinox and then some other players like National, Magnaflex, etc.....
I know it is frustrating, and when I was a retailer I probably would have been mad at a customer who probed too much - but now that I know that some of these flex liners have failed in the field (within 10 years), I think a bit differently. For instance, they will all toss around warranty length, but what good does replacement material do you when you have to spend a grand to replace it later?
As a consumer, I might be happy with most of the liner brands out there. But back me against a wall and ask "what if it was a tall chimney, a steep roof and you were going to stay in the house forever" and you start to see me lean toward heat-fab rigid and ventinox flex due to track record. Ventinox is a client of mine, but heat-fab is not....and these recs have nothing to do with that (they don't pay me enough!)...Copperfield makes some decent products also, but they make so many types and thicknesses and "improved", that it is hard to keep up......
The entire equation always has to be weighed. In the case of our store, no one ever asked much because we were there for 20 years and had the reputation of being top-notch. If a liner had failed, we certainly would have eaten some of the labor to replace (ourselves) even if not covered by warranty.
So if the dealer is good - maybe you should just let them do their thing and rest easy.
qwerty said:
Hmmm.... I would tend to say "poor condition" with that description; you will need more of a liner than average if your description is accurate. (Have you had it examined by a competent sweep?)
The straight part is good, the exterior part isn't, and the missing / damaged tiles are VERY BAD... You definitely will need an insulated liner rated to bring your chimney back into compliance with NFPA - 211 specs and to get good performance.
Gooserider
Gee, thanks for making me feel bad about my chimney. Actually, as I mentioned, I already figured that it wasn't in good enough shape to use without some work. It's one more thing that the previous owners did not properly address during their tenure. I've found that they were big on cosmetic upgrades but woefully remiss when it came to taking care of the basics. That makes for a good house when you tour it, but a bad house when you buy it. Plus, don't even get me started on all the other stuff that the useless home inspector missed...
Anyway, back to original topic. I agree with you that an insulated liner is probably the way to go. However, it it not possible to put insulating material around any type of pipe? That would sort of leave me back at square one. Does a liner effectively become a "grade higher" if it is insulated? In other words, is insulated flex as good or better than uninsulated rigid? What about titanium, which is a material that one dealer offered as an upgrade? I'm at the point where I feel like the more I learn, the more new questions I have.
I don't mean to belabor the point, and I really appreciate the excellent feedback that has been posted thus far. It has already helped me considerably. However, if I'm going to throw a few thousand at a home improvement, I need to get it right. I don't have enough money for more than one shot at this.
Anyway, back to original topic. I agree with you that an insulated liner is probably the way to go. However, it it not possible to put insulating material around any type of pipe? That would sort of leave me back at square one. Does a liner effectively become a "grade higher" if it is insulated? In other words, is insulated flex as good or better than uninsulated rigid? What about titanium, which is a material that one dealer offered as an upgrade? I'm at the point where I feel like the more I learn, the more new questions I have.
I don't mean to belabor the point, and I really appreciate the excellent feedback that has been posted thus far. It has already helped me considerably. However, if I'm going to throw a few thousand at a home improvement, I need to get it right. I don't have enough money for more than one shot at this.
If your chimney is suspect then clearances to combustibles are compromised The 1/2" insulation is required to restore the clearance issues
In your case the UL 1777 Standard must be met.
Yes there are differences in liners the steel aloy difference is from economy 304 to 316 to 316 ti all the way to 321 ti Each successive product is an alloy
upgrade , also a longevity and strength. Also costing more. Personally I would target 316 ti. All will require 1/2" insulation
Then there is a thickness issue the thicker the product one gains strength and longevity The down side is thicker liners loose flexibility.
There is not much difference between 0055 to 006 but .007 ( James Bond ) one will notice it right away in the weight and stiffness.
There is also differences in the interior ribbing some are designed much smoother than others. Naturally smoother interiors produce less draft friction
Ultimately smooth 24 ga stainless steel liners have the least friction But cost the most, They too can be insulated.
A good compromise ( my opinion) would be 316 ti with a smoothest interior and .006 or thicker..
Establishing a good draft system is equally as important than the stove selection. Not a place where cutting corners should be considered.
Poor draft will equate to crappy performance, no matter what brand name stove you purchase Good draft can enhance a lesser stove to preform better.
In your case the UL 1777 Standard must be met.
Yes there are differences in liners the steel aloy difference is from economy 304 to 316 to 316 ti all the way to 321 ti Each successive product is an alloy
upgrade , also a longevity and strength. Also costing more. Personally I would target 316 ti. All will require 1/2" insulation
Then there is a thickness issue the thicker the product one gains strength and longevity The down side is thicker liners loose flexibility.
There is not much difference between 0055 to 006 but .007 ( James Bond ) one will notice it right away in the weight and stiffness.
There is also differences in the interior ribbing some are designed much smoother than others. Naturally smoother interiors produce less draft friction
Ultimately smooth 24 ga stainless steel liners have the least friction But cost the most, They too can be insulated.
A good compromise ( my opinion) would be 316 ti with a smoothest interior and .006 or thicker..
Establishing a good draft system is equally as important than the stove selection. Not a place where cutting corners should be considered.
Poor draft will equate to crappy performance, no matter what brand name stove you purchase Good draft can enhance a lesser stove to preform better.
There is one other major issue not addressed, is the size clay flue you are trying to line. It is impossible to install 6" 1/2" insulated liner in an 8/12 clay flue
the interior dementions of that 8/12 is 6.75" not counting concrete snots and not factoring little offsets in their alignments. That concrete snot can and will rip the insulation jacket.
Naturally a 12/12 clay flue has the room to accommodate the liner installation. There is a compromise A judgment made by code officials. Code does not allow a reduction of a liners in relationship to the flue collar. The Judgment is is an insulated 5,5" liner UL 1777 better for safety reasons in a questionable chimney than the flue area reduction?
Given all the factors, I will error on the side of safety every time. This only applies with 8/12 clay flues. When I compromise code enforcement, I look at it applied to that individual situation.
There also exist an in between solution.1/4" insulation is a 2" clearance to combustibles. Again chimney condition and configurations, have to be applied to only that unique situation.
I can't speak for all code officials and there interpretations, but not every situation found in the field, fits within the written code
the interior dementions of that 8/12 is 6.75" not counting concrete snots and not factoring little offsets in their alignments. That concrete snot can and will rip the insulation jacket.
Naturally a 12/12 clay flue has the room to accommodate the liner installation. There is a compromise A judgment made by code officials. Code does not allow a reduction of a liners in relationship to the flue collar. The Judgment is is an insulated 5,5" liner UL 1777 better for safety reasons in a questionable chimney than the flue area reduction?
Given all the factors, I will error on the side of safety every time. This only applies with 8/12 clay flues. When I compromise code enforcement, I look at it applied to that individual situation.
There also exist an in between solution.1/4" insulation is a 2" clearance to combustibles. Again chimney condition and configurations, have to be applied to only that unique situation.
I can't speak for all code officials and there interpretations, but not every situation found in the field, fits within the written code
Alright, let me change gears for just a moment. Suppose that I were not interested in a wood burning stove instert and wanted to use my "questionable" chimney and fireplace as just a fireplace. I understand that it's zero efficiency and all, but suppose for a moment that I'm willing to accept that because I'm would be using it only casually. For the purposes of this discussion, let's say that this requires a new damper installation and some sort of re-line of the chimney. What is the most economical way to get the situation up to snuff?
Just wanted to add, in response to Elk. He could use the Simpson DuraLiner 6" oval rigid pipe which is 4.75" wide outter on the skinny side. It is double wall insulation wrapped. It should fit down one of those 8x12 flues without much trouble. Only problem is it can get expensive. One of the members lines his whole chimney with the round duraliner and he loves it.
qwerty said:
We obviously cannot see your fireplace and chimney interior....
Whether tiles are cracked or missing...we do not know - neither do we know where they are - the top two tiles can usually be easily broken out and replaced.....
The other thing is that there is no standard for "casual use" - either the fireplace is safe, or it is not. If it is relatively sound, I would say you could probably safely use gas logs.
There is a system that some chimney sweeps use which can drag cement up the flue with a squeegee - and force it into joints and small cracks...
BUT, to make the fireplace up to complete snuff as an open fireplace will cost more than most other option since a larger liner (possibly a square one) is needed.
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