BEV Pickup Trucks

[Ashful]

Are run flats still a thing?

They are, but ironically, not in the sizes used by what seems to be the cars often shipping sans spare tire. For example, my OEM tire brand and model has a run-flat variant, but not in the size used on this car.

Just happened to be changing oil today, a very non-BEV thing to do, but it reminded me of this discussion on Tesla‘s lacking spare tires. Here’s what’s under my trunk floor, in a 2016 ICE sport sedan. I have friends and family with EV’s from BMW, Tesla, and Volvo, and will try to find out what they all have.

 

[SpaceBus]

They are, but ironically, not in the sizes used by what seems to be the cars often shipping sans spare tire. For example, my OEM tire brand and model has a run-flat variant, but not in the size used on this car.

Just happened to be changing oil today, a very non-BEV thing to do, but it reminded me of this discussion on Tesla‘s lacking spare tires. Here’s what’s under my trunk floor, in a 2016 ICE sport sedan. I have friends and family with EV’s from BMW, Tesla, and Volvo, and will try to find out what they all have.

View attachment 307134

Looks just like my old 2010 SRT8 Challenger. Once at the drag strip I accidentally refilled my tires with the flat fixer goop instead of plain air. I feel bad for the tire tech that had to take off those OEM sized rears and replace them with 295's!

 

[peakbagger]

Living up in in the woods, a spare even if its temp a spare is really needed. Its a tourist area and folks are always getting flats usually on weekends and finding a tire of the right size is not guaranteed. It is very unlikely they will find an exact match.

 

[EbS-P]

Yep thats the idea, If going on a long road trip, it will go along. Local (Over 80%) driving It will stay home.

Living up in in the woods, a spare even if its temp a spare is really needed. Its a tourist area and folks are always getting flats usually on weekends and finding a tire of the right size is not guaranteed. It is very unlikely they will find an exact match.

And I like to meet the Tesla engineers responsible for choosing a rear tire that won’t fit up front on the model X. 20x9 and 265 up front and 20x9.5 and 275 on the rear. Yep the suspension clearance is that tight.

Fonts will fit the rear though.

 

[woodgeek]

Part of the no spare thing is EPA efficiency targets. Thanks Obama.

If you are trying to get a vehicle to some mpg, dropping the weight of the spare, jack and lug wrench can get you close to a percent, at negative cost to the manufacturer. Versus making a different change that actually costs money.

Once you switch to EV, you make the same argument, but based on getting 1% more range.

In my 2013 LEAF, I bought a compact spare and jack, and left it (tied down) in the cargo space with a nice cover. Never touched it in 3 years. Nowadays I drive around with a good plug kit and inflator and hope for the best. I have needed the plug kit once in 5 years, on a road trip.

 

[SpaceBus]

Part of the no spare thing is EPA efficiency targets. Thanks Obama.

If you are trying to get a vehicle to some mpg, dropping the weight of the spare, jack and lug wrench can get you close to a percent, at negative cost to the manufacturer. Versus making a different change that actually costs money.

Once you switch to EV, you make the same argument, but based on getting 1% more range.

In my 2013 LEAF, I bought a compact spare and jack, and left it (tied down) in the cargo space with a nice cover. Never touched it in 3 years. Nowadays I drive around with a good plug kit and inflator and hope for the best. I have needed the plug kit once in 5 years, on a road trip.

I still say "thanks Obama" for everything. Current production tires also seem to resist punctures a lot better than they used to. I've literally never had a flat from a puncture/debris in the near 16 years I've been driving. Admittedly not as long as some of the other folks on here.

 

[EbS-P]

I still say "thanks Obama" for everything. Current production tires also seem to resist punctures a lot better than they used to. I've literally never had a flat from a puncture/debris in the near 16 years I've been driving. Admittedly not as long as some of the other folks on here.

After the hurricane hit here lots 20-30% of the roofs got replaced in a year. There were nails everywhere. Costco tire couldn’t hardly keep up. We had 3 in a year.

 

[begreen]

They are, but ironically, not in the sizes used by what seems to be the cars often shipping sans spare tire. For example, my OEM tire brand and model has a run-flat variant, but not in the size used on this car.

Just happened to be changing oil today, a very non-BEV thing to do, but it reminded me of this discussion on Tesla‘s lacking spare tires. Here’s what’s under my trunk floor, in a 2016 ICE sport sedan. I have friends and family with EV’s from BMW, Tesla, and Volvo, and will try to find out what they all have.

View attachment 307134

Very similar to what is in our Volt. Including the 12v battery in the rear.

 

[Ashful]

Very similar to what is in our Volt. Including the 12v battery in the rear.

Same with another family member's 2018 Tesla Model 3. Just verified, no spare.

 

[walhondingnashua]

Listened to a podcast about the humanitarian situation in the Congo around cobalt mining. I'm sure there are plenty of people on here that know cobalt is used in rechargeable batteries to improve charging times and run times. Although cobalt is in all of our rechargeable devices (cell phones), EV batteries are the highest source of demand. As this issue becomes more public and some consumers put pressure on corporations to make changes to their supply chains, I'm curious how this will impact the progress of EVs. Apparently, Tesla already manufactures roughly 1/2 of their cars without cobalt.

 

[blades]

i have had 3 of the newer cars with nanny state auto trannies and other assorted Safety? functions, awd. absolute pia in nothern states with black ice snow and such. can't lock the 4wd on can't completely shut it off ( Escapes start up from a stop in 4 wheel and it slowly fades out ) Never figured out what was going on in a CX30 mazda awd with cylinder cut outs and all. dang thing would jam the brakes on if someone cut in front of you kinda close at 70mph( not fun) and other assorted gems. Yes, I pine for the manual tranny. I will say for plowing snow the old slush boxes were better than a manual ( pumping the clutch in a tight lot gets old after about 8 hours). But the manual wood out last the auto units. dang sight cheaper to replace a worn clutch plate than rebuilding an auto . ( I am also Cheap at times). EV's currently not cost effective for me due to up front pricing.

 

[Ashful]

i have had 3 of the newer cars with nanny state auto trannies and other assorted Safety? functions, awd. absolute pia in nothern states with black ice snow and such. can't lock the 4wd on can't completely shut it off ( Escapes start up from a stop in 4 wheel and it slowly fades out ) Never figured out what was going on in a CX30 mazda awd with cylinder cut outs and all. dang thing would jam the brakes on if someone cut in front of you kinda close at 70mph( not fun) and other assorted gems.

Interesting. I have three newer cars with the full battery of modern safety features, including auto AWD on one, and forward collision avoidance in two, among other features. But all of them can be disabled, and even (for the most part) remember your setting after turn off / re-start. About the only things that aren't retained and reset with each restart have to do with emissions, such as the cylinder cut-out you had mentioned, but even those are easily disabled with 2 button clicks on each vehicle.

 

[SpaceBus]

Some of the modern transverse AWD systems can be locked in 4wd, usually at lower speeds, but it's not a transfer case. All of the Jeep AWD systems can be locked, but most manufacturers do not offer this.

 

[KDubU]

I agree, torque converters are spooky in slippery conditions. I also prefer wheeling with a manual, especially when there's a lot of torque available. That ZF8 is so good, I really don't miss a manual when driving it. Most of my experience was behind the wheel of a 2015 (?) BMW 335i M-Sport that ran 13's in the 1/4, but got 35 MPG highway. It was super fun with Hoosier slicks (purple crack) on an autocross course at the Corvette museum.



The practical benefits of a CVT, particularly for low gearing, are numerous, but I can't stand driving one. Having the engine at the same RPM all the time is not enjoyable. I have limited CVT experience, mainly in a Nissan Sentra rental and test driving a Nissan Juke NISMO RS AWD. Having one in a sporty car should be a crime, I put my foot down in that Juke NISMO and it took what felt like forever to pick a ratio and accelerate.

CVT’s suck big time. This is a primary reason I did not buy a Subaru. Test drove the Crosstrek and Outback, not a fan of the total lack of pep. Granted I was coming from a manual transmission but when I test drove a Mazda CX-5, the pickup was good and it wasn’t constantly changing gears or whatever CVT’s do. I bought a CX-5 and have zero regrets….okay the infotainment system is slow due to a poor chip choice but otherwise a great vehicle.

 

[Shank]

This thread has had me exploring options more (I am not ready to buy yet, but I also don't want to be caught blindsided if I need to in the next 1-2years).

The largest holdup for me is the seemingly 50% price increase to move to a BEV or PHEV. It seems BEV equivalents are sometimes less expensive than similar PHEV's, but for a number of reason's I would really like to be in a PHEV next.

 

[Ashful]

This thread has had me exploring options more (I am not ready to buy yet, but I also don't want to be caught blindsided if I need to in the next 1-2years).

The largest holdup for me is the seemingly 50% price increase to move to a BEV or PHEV. It seems BEV equivalents are sometimes less expensive than similar PHEV's, but for a number of reason's I would really like to be in a PHEV next.

PHEV = most of the cost of a BEV + a small ICE... it's likely always going to be the higher-cost option, between any two similar platforms.

Unless your road-tripping in the thing, I think there's good argument to be made in favor of the BEV. Not just cost, but simplicity, reduced maintenance, fewer moving parts, etc.

 

[Shank]

PHEV = most of the cost of a BEV + a small ICE... it's likely always going to be the higher-cost option, between any two similar platforms.

Unless your road-tripping in the thing, I think there's good argument to be made in favor of the BEV. Not just cost, but simplicity, reduced maintenance, fewer moving parts, etc.

All valid points. As much as I enjoy maintenance on an ICE engine, why not add a whole other drivetrain set of components to deal with.....

We like to travel a decent amount, and I am not sold on long distance traveling with a BEV yet (but in 1-2 years it may be even better than it is now). For my daily commute, a BEV is almost certainly a great option. A lot to consider.

 

[EbS-P]

PHEV = most of the cost of a BEV + a small ICE... it's likely always going to be the higher-cost option, between any two similar platforms.

Unless your road-tripping in the thing, I think there's good argument to be made in favor of the BEV. Not just cost, but simplicity, reduced maintenance, fewer moving parts, etc.

I’m going to disagree on the most of the BEV cost point. The PHEV battery is 20-30% smaller that is a huge cost savings. The transmission/hybrid drive for a PHEV will cost more but the starter generator and drive unit are integrated. Drive unit is considerably smaller that’s a Cost savings.

I do think it will be higher cost compared to the ICE counterparts but at current battery prices and the fact that Tesla is make like 30% profit on cars while Honda and Toyota are like 10%. Probably puts the ice on a more equal cost footing with a bev than a PHEV. I’ve got not data to back it up and will gladly conceded any argument challenging this. We are still willfully to pay more for anything with a battery because the supply is tight.

Tesla had the number 6 and 7 best selling vehicles in the us in 2022. 1, 3 and 3 were trucks (ford Chevy dodge in that order) 4 and 5 were RAV4 and camera.

6 was the y and 7 the model 3. Tell me the first BET prices 10-20% over the ICE version won’t sell like hotcakes.

 

[ABMax24]

IMO the big 3 are doing it wrong. They are coming out with PHEV cars and SUVs and BEV pickups. I think it needs to be switched, I can handle and BEV SUV. But towing range on the BEV pickups is pathetic, I will never buy one when they get 70 miles range with a trailer on behind.

Give me a PHEV pickup, that's logical, daily drive on battery, and then have the engine for longer range trips and towing.

Or one with a 300kwh battery. But IMO the PHEV seems more logical and cost effective at present time when factoring in the still high cost of batteries.

 

[EbS-P]

IMO the big 3 are doing it wrong. They are coming out with PHEV cars and SUVs and BEV pickups. I think it needs to be switched, I can handle and BEV SUV. But towing range on the BEV pickups is pathetic, I will never buy one when they get 70 miles range with a trailer on behind.

Give me a PHEV pickup, that's logical, daily drive on battery, and then have the engine for longer range trips and towing.

Or one with a 300kwh battery. But IMO the PHEV seems more logical and cost effective at present time when factoring in the still high cost of batteries.

I don’t think They don’t have a hybrid drive system for the the 1/2 and larger trucks yet. Toyota has one for theirs now. Have not seen one in the wild yet. Have not seen a tear down on it either. The smaller versions use a planetary CVT. Want that on your truck?

 

[sloeffle]

IMO the big 3 are doing it wrong. They are coming out with PHEV cars and SUVs and BEV pickups. I think it needs to be switched, I can handle and BEV SUV. But towing range on the BEV pickups is pathetic, I will never buy one when they get 70 miles range with a trailer on behind.

Give me a PHEV pickup, that's logical, daily drive on battery, and then have the engine for longer range trips and towing.

Or one with a 300kwh battery. But IMO the PHEV seems more logical and cost effective at present time when factoring in the still high cost of batteries.

I agree with your post completely. I wouldn't buy a BEV pickup if I was going to be using it as a truck vs a grocery getter. If I'm spending that much on a truck it better have six wheels, and a diesel engine. IMHO - it's more of a status symbol than anything to the folks that can afford them.

The reason they aren't doing that is profits. Profits are so high on pickups it probably make most sense to start with them. I read, or heard somewhere that Ford sold more F series pickups than what some auto manufacturers sell in their whole line up. They also mentioned what percentage of that equated to Ford's overall profits for the year. It was a pretty high percentage from what I remember.

 

[Ashful]

I’m going to disagree on the most of the BEV cost point. The PHEV battery is 20-30% smaller that is a huge cost savings. The transmission/hybrid drive for a PHEV will cost more but the starter generator and drive unit are integrated. Drive unit is considerably smaller that’s a Cost savings.

Are we down to arguing about the definition of the word "most"?

I'll admit I'm not the biggest follower of the BEV and PHEV market. jebatty, woodgeek, and you all have me beat there. But I did shop both PHEV's and BEV's pretty seriously in 2020, and this is the trend I observed. There were certainly BEV's much more expensive than PHEV's, but justifiably so, being larger and more capable platforms. When trying to really compare apples to apples, as much as was practical between differing brands and platforms, I was finding the PHEV's had a higher cost than BEV's.

 

[EbS-P]

Are we down to arguing about the definition of the word "most"?

I'll admit I'm not the biggest follower of the BEV and PHEV market. jebatty, woodgeek, and you all have me beat there. But I did shop both PHEV's and BEV's pretty seriously in 2020, and this is the trend I observed. There were certainly BEV's much more expensive than PHEV's, but justifiably so, being larger and more capable platforms. When trying to really compare apples to apples, as much as was practical between differing brands and platforms, I was finding the PHEV's had a higher cost than BEV's.

Are there any other PHEV than Toyota? I’m can’t think of any off the top of my head available 2020 and after. It’s just not an apple to apple’s market. Getting closer. Ionic 5 to RAV4 is about the closest match I can think of. The next 12 months will see some more competition and the next 24-36 will be very interesting.

I don’t see hybrid ever on at truck buyers mind. If you wanted economy you wouldn’t get a truck. If you wanted power you get the biggest ICE you could afford. If you were wanting a truck on a budget you get a smaller one or a used one. The fact the truck outsold everything last year really tells you something. We like and some need a truck more than any other vehicle.

This is a huge market and one with brand bias that defies data. You don’t want to screw this up if you are a manufacturer or maybe the brand allegiance is so strong you might get a second chance.

 

[Ashful]

Are there any other PHEV than Toyota?

Dunno about Toyota, I was only looking at Euro wagons and SUV's. Volvo, Mercedes, BMW, and Audi. Our prior two wagons were Audi and Volvo, so those were high on the list, particularly the V60 Polestar PHEV.

But my god... you could have bought two of the V60 ICE's for the MSRP of the PHEV. The horsepower was impressive, something like 420 hp, but not enough to convince my wife (primary driver of the wagon) that it was worth the added cost.

 

[walhondingnashua]

Maybe the conversation on ICEs vs EVs needs to be from this perspective...

1. Wanting to convert as many automobiles on the roads in the US over a reasonable amount of time for environmental reasons...
2. Auto manufacturers providing EV options that fit a larger demand base that actually fits more realistic needs of people that want to buy them...

EVs are superior (arguably) to ICEs for fleet usages (delivery like UPS/FEDEX/AMAZON, work crews, landscapers, plumbers, electricians etc) or commuting/ city driving. All are situations in which there is a daily known amount of driving and there is a built in charging time.

ICEs are superior to EVs for more personal use, larger truck work or the average American that doesn't have a regular commute.

Manufacturers SHOULD be making a much larger line up of small commuter option vehicles and convert all (or most) commercial vehicle production over to EV because this is where people will realistically use them and buy them.

Making the majority of EVs fit the price range and desires of a small portion of the population will not get more of them on the road and not 1. help with environmental reasons and 2. not encourage manufactures improve their options.