blaze king insert Efficiency

[black smoke signals]

Just wondering so educate me! Blaze king shows my insert to be in the 80 something on low burn.There is a blaze king video that shows a demo of a man placing his hand inside a cutout stove pipe while burning wood.If 80 something percent of efficiency is the heat staying the stove at 80 percent burn and 20 percent going up the flue correct? Now does this mean the flue temperature is cooler too?

 

[mellow]

Correct, the cat is reburning more of the fuel and keeping the heat in the stove, that is why BK recommends an insulated liner due to lower flue temps to keep the draft going.

 

[BKVP]

The demo pipe you see in our videos is often on showroom floors. Dealers with demo pipes can have you place you hand in the stack, WITH THE BY PASS CLOSED! The cat temps can be in excess of 1,000F, yet you can place your hand in the stack.

Stack temps on most of our units are 250F-350F on low burn rates.

Mellow is correct, double wall black stove pipe and a good all fuel chimney is needed in order to sustain and induce a good draft.

 

[black smoke signals]

My installer didn't recommend an insulated liner said my chimney is in the center of the house and this is dead air space or room temperature up the chimney until liner exits out of the roof which is brick.If I get any build up of creosote it will be in the 3ft area is he wrong?

 

[kennyp2339]

If I get any build up of creosote it will be in the 3ft area is he wrong?

Yes, but everyone has different burning habits and different moisture levels in there wood, I would say just keep an eye on things, buy a moisture meter and only burn wood that is below 20%, optimum burn below 15% on a freshly split piece. Also keep an eye on your chimney cap, be mind full of possible build up there.
I get build up there all the time. I even get occasional icicles in the dead of winter, I burn hardwoods below 18% split and stacked for 3 years minimum.

 

[black smoke signals]

Thanks will do

 

[BKVP]

My installer didn't recommend an insulated liner said my chimney is in the center of the house and this is dead air space or room temperature up the chimney until liner exits out of the roof which is brick.If I get any build up of creosote it will be in the 3ft area is he wrong?

No, he is not wrong. Chimney's with exterior walls just are heat sinks and hard to keep warm. With an interior chimney, it is not the same issue.

 

[bholler]

No, he is not wrong. Chimney's with exterior walls just are heat sinks and hard to keep warm. With an interior chimney, it is not the same issue.

Yes he is wrong because insulation is needed for more than performance reasons. On an interior chimney you need a 2" air space all around that chimney if you don't have that which most do not you need insulation for safety issues.

 

[BKVP]

In a masonry chimney? Perhaps in a zc, but masonry ?

 

[bholler]

In a masonry chimney? Perhaps in a zc, but masonry ?

What do you mean? An interior masonry chimney absolutely needs 2" clearance to combustibles to meet code.
(broken link removed to http://codes.iccsafe.org/app/book/content/2015-I-Codes/2015%20IRC%20HTML/Chapter%2010.html)
R1003.18 is very clear on that requirement

And an insert in a zc almost never meets code unless that zc unit allows for it. And very few do

 

[BKVP]

I thought the OP had a masonry chimney and dealer dropped in a stainless liner, uninsulated.

You are saying a stainless liner drop down a masonry chimney needs 2" clearances?

Where did I go wrong here?

 

[bholler]

You are saying a stainless liner drop down a masonry chimney needs 2" clearances?

Where did I go wrong here?

I am saying that that interior masonry chimney needs 2" of clearance from it to any combustible material unless that liner is insulated. And I am saying that because it is required by code which I listed

 

[BKVP]

Correct me if I'm wrong...my wife has gotten good at this.

I thought the OP had a masonry chimney. The question, as I understood it was "was the dealer wrong to drop down the chimney an uninsulated liner?

I did not know of a standard that required the liner to be insulated. In fact, any USA standard that required any liner.

 

[bholler]

Correct me if I'm wrong...my wife has gotten good at this.

I thought the OP had a masonry chimney. The question, as I understood it was "was the dealer wrong to drop down the chimney an uninsulated liner?

I did not know of a standard that required the liner to be insulated. In fact, any USA standard that required any liner.

There is a standard that requires that clearance for a masonry chimney. If it is not there the only way to fix it is with an insulated liner. And this is an insert so a liner of some sort is required. Some stoves do still allow for a direct connect (I don't know about your stoves) But that would have to be into a code compliant chimney with a properly sized clay liner. And in a fireplace the liner is rarely properly sized and it is also rare to have proper clearances.

So when you said he was not wrong to drop an uninsulated liner with out knowing if the chimney has proper clearances you were wrong.

Another point to be made about insulation on liners is that most ul listed liners need insulation to meet the ul listing for use with a solid fuel burning appliance. And you are required to install a ul listed product to those listing requirements so in many cases insulation is required regardless of clearances.

 

[BKVP]

I'll check with Omni and Intertek on all this. Thank you for your input....

 

[bholler]

I'll check with Omni and Intertek on all this. Thank you for your input....

Just read the code there is no reason to check with anyone the info is there and is very clear.

 

[Highbeam]

I'll check with Omni and Intertek on all this. Thank you for your input....

The "assumption" being made by bholler is that the masonry chimney (perhaps all masonry chimneys) is not installed to code and therefor the liner must be insulated since the masonry is not a compliant chimney. I am not so pessimistic and am willing to say that IF the masonry chimney is installed to code and not broken then uninsulated liners are acceptable so long as the manufacturer of the liner does not require insulation for their product.

 

[bholler]

The "assumption" being made by bholler is that the masonry chimney (perhaps all masonry chimneys) is not installed to code and therefor the liner must be insulated since the masonry is not a compliant chimney. I am not so pessimistic and am willing to say that IF the masonry chimney is installed to code and not broken then uninsulated liners are acceptable so long as the manufacturer of the liner does not require insulation for their product.

Ok I have asked you this before and you have never answered me. How many chimneys do you inspect every year? Of them how many can you confirm proper clearances on? How many can you confirm there is not proper clearances on?

I looked at our records and this year so far we have cleaned and inspected or just inspected 342 chimneys. of them we could confirm proper clearances on 3. I do not have the number of times we could confirm improper clearances but I can tell you it is by far the majority. So my veiw is not an assumption it is A view formed by lots of experience and training. What is your view based on?

I am willing to say that if you can confirm that a chimney is code compliant it is perfectly safe to use an uninsulated liner. The problem is that you cannot confirm that most of the time. And you are making the assumption that most are installed to code with absolutely no info to back it up. How is that responsible at all?

 

[prezes13]

Bholler I want to ask question. If I have a modern house (1994) with a masonry chimney and a tercotta liner does it still require insulated liner? I know it would be optimal for a performance point of view.

 

[bholler]

If I have a modern house (1994) with a masonry chimney and a tercotta liner does it still require insulated liner?

Do you have the required clearances? Just because it was built in 1994 does not mean it does. I have seen new construction pass inspection with no clearances at all.

 

[prezes13]

To be honest I never checked. It's outside chimney. Here is a picture. I assume it doesn't.

 

[bholler]

To be honest I never checked. It's outside chimney. Here is a picture. I assume it doesn't.

Cant tell from that pic. If you read the code you are allowed to have trim touching in the corners so the only way to tell there would be to pull a peice of the j channel. Many times you can also tell in the attic or by measuring the chimney above the roof and just transferring that down to see if there is room there to have the clearance.

 

[prezes13]

Thanks a lot. I still don't know if I have the right clearance I will try to check it tomorrow but at least I have understanding what you are talking about.

 

[Rickb]

This seems pretty easy....... If you can prove the chimney meets requirments then you can use a liner only. However as a contractor if bholler cant prove it he has to assume it doesnt. Otherwise that house burns down and its his ass. I am in a similar boat with industrial equipment. If someone gets hurt and we don't follow safety standards is ours butts no matter what the customer says or wants.

 

[mellow]

My 2 cents, You are already spending $500+ for the liner, what is a couple hundred more to have it insulated for peace of mind.