Buying New Insert Q's: Catalytic VS No Catalytic, Cooktop Extention VS No extension, & Brand Select

[53flyer]

Hi burners! I just recently found this site and it’s a great resource! It seems to have a well viewed forums with many current posts so I thought I’d try asking some Q’s of you experienced folks.

Background: We’re looking for an insert to replace what we believe is an old “Heatalator”. The house had a Quadra-fire 5100 downstairs when we moved in but we have to keep that room 80+deg just to get it to 62-66 in living room directly above it! We even have 2 built in floor fans that are supposed to blow the air upstairs but the ole “heat rises” theme hasn’t been working that great so we figured we could be more efficient by just getting an insert for the upstairs room since that’s where we spend most of our time. All our firewood is cut (of course) to 24” for the downstairs Quad so looks like I’ll be cutting them all in half regardless. Great!…LOL :-(


Here are our main Q’s (answers to any one or more would be appreciated):

1. Catalytic VS No Catalytic- We’ve been leaning heavily towards non catalytic based on the need to replace cats on a semi-regular basis but I found a few threads where people seem to like Blaze Kings which have cats…

2. Cook top Extension VS No Extension- We can cook on the Quadra-fire if necessary so we’re not concerned as much by the cook top aspect as by the mere extra heat we assume would be delivered by having it stick out more.

2.1 Just remembered this one…Blower VS No Blower- Some people tell us the blower isn’t important because the stove is designed to circulate the air around and back to the room already but others have said a fan is important. In a power outage you loose a fan and I wonder if in that situation the fan attachment could hinder (block) the inserts ability to move air as efficiently?

3. Brand Selection (most frustrating part for us)- We’re pretty discouraged by what seems to be a lack of standardization to compare by (Ex: I’ve seen a brochure say efficiency is 69%, a little card in the stove with an arrow pointing to around 64-65%, and a dealer telling me he has documentation to show it’s at least 75% (eligible for tax rebate). what??? I’ve even seen higher indicated g/hr (like 4.2) equate to “higher” (85%) indicated efficiency instead of “lower”. Shouldn't super efficient stoves have very low g/hr ratings? Is efficiency related to getting max combustion (i.e. amount of ash left or particulates released of given fuel) OR is it referring to delivering heat to given space? BTU’s doesn’t seem like a reliable comparable either… I’ve seen statements of being “the most efficient” from numerous different brands but obviously just one can actually be “the most efficient”.

So far we’re looking at Pacific Energy, Lopi, Country, Quadra-fire, and Blaze King (only one with cat and also the only one where a dealer claimed 24 to a potential “48hr” burn time which caused a lot of suspicion and made me think "I doubt you could even get it to smolder for that long"). We’re still open to suggestions as well. We like the price and warranty of PE but I’ve heard that legally “lifetime warranty” = 7yrs in WA state and I’m also concerned that they seem to be the only manufacturer with a Stainless Steel baffle and flame shield vs. the tubes/fireboard/blanket/brick combos that others use. Being unique either means “better” or “worse” doesn’t it? If it were better then wouldn’t others try to move in (without breaking patents of course) that direction? I also just found a worrisome thread where people were finding “cracks” in their inserts and big warps in the diffuser plate but I’ve also heard or read that some warping doesn’t hurt the performance. Wouldn’t warping impact the airflow and thus reduce performance? Does anyone know how long they’ve been opting for a SS baffle? I’d prefer to buy something thinking “I’ll never need the warranty” rather than “expecting” to need it (regardless of how great it may be). They’re supposed to be the oldest/lgst stove maker in Canada right?

Thanks for enduring the length of this post.

 

[Wet1]

I'm eating lunch... Take a ride over to Walla Walla and get the BK. :cheese:

 

[firefighterjake]

Welcome to the forum.

Random thoughts . . . have you tried moving the heated air to the bedrooms you mentioned by positioning a floor fan so it blows towards the stove? You may wish to try this and see if it helps move the heat to the bedrooms.

I think it may make sense to put a woodstove or insert in the room where you spend most of your time . . . I think that's good advice for most folks.

Cat vs. non cat . . . one of the perennial debates here. I know I was in the anti-cat camp when I first started looking . . . but I've come around now to the point where I might be willing to try a stove with a cat . . . I would not relish having to replace the cat in 3-7 years as some are kind of pricey, but the fact is cat stoves seem to be pretty easy to use, burn clean and get some fantastically long burn times.

Cooktop vs. no cooktop . . . not a real selling point for me since I don't cook on my stove . . . personal preference.

Inserts . . . don't have one . . . have never had one . . . but it seems that most folks that have inserts say blowers are useful.

Numbers . . . you've got to take the numbers that manufacturers give you with a proverbial grain of salt . . . efficiency numbers to me are just a guide . . . there are only so many ways you can get heat out of a certain amount of wood . . . burn times are hard to define so these times may be wildly inflated or dead on depending on your definition of what a burn time is . . . heating space numbers . . . again they may be right on the money or off the mark, depends on where you live, climate, insulation in home, etc.

Brands . . . you've listed some good ones . . . PE, Lopi, Quadra-fire and BK . . . all come pretty highly rated here. BK users love 'em . . . as they do report some long burn times. PEs . . . they have had some issues, but the manufacturer is standing behind their products . . . that said, I understand your beliefs that you would rather have a product be bullet proof and not have as good a warranty vs. having a product have an issue and have to go through the hassle of getting the warranty work done.

 

[3fordasho]

I voted other but then realized Woodstock does not make a insert.... Vote then goes to Blaze king cause I'm sold on the catalytic technology two times over (own two fireviews). Yes the cat will need replacing ($125), but I think you'll find many of the non-cat stoves have wear parts too- hi temp fiberboards or reburn assemblies, pre-cut insulation blankets, etc. These can be just as $$ as a replacement cat and even more. A comment on the Quadrafire- I ran a Castile pellet stove for 7 years and the thought of having to buy their replacement parts was a concern. They thought highly $$ of some of the parts I needed to replace (door gasket- $50 not generic), ignitersx2 @ $50 each. Auger motor assembly was making more noise every season $200+. By comparison Woodstock replacement parts seem quite reasonable, not that I've had to purchase any besides a can of touch up paint that they sent out free of charge.

 

[53flyer]

firefighterjake- Thanks for the welcome & the thoughts. We’ve used a floor fan to suck more heat off the Quad but it doesn’t really help get the heat upstairs.

Yep the cat issue is perplexing to us because of 1) the repeated cost involved and 2) I’m completely baffled as to why a cat would have “anything” to do with burn times. It seems like its main function is simply to re-burn exhaust and reduce emissions which shouldn’t really impact how long a given piece of wood burns more or less than any other stove right?... Shouldn’t a given fuel source take about the same amount of time to burn in any EPA re-burning stove? It seems like firebox capacity should be the largest factor related to burn times (more wood, and longer whole pieces should burn longer). The Quad’s stated 19 and 10 hour burn times for a 3 and 1.6 cu.ft. box respectfully seems unbelievably good. When I hear burn times of 24-48hrs for a blaze king I get highly suspicious and start thinking about smoldering scraps of 1/8" embers... It’s way more confusing than I would hope LOL.

If we didn’t have the Quad to cook on a cooktop would be more important to us in case of long power outages out here in the rural country.

Did you skip over the “country” stove (owned by Lennox) by mistake or do you dislike them?

Wet1- Same Q irt cats & burn times that I asked ffjake.ut it

3for- Wow, 2 freestanding wood & a pellet stove for one house? For my Quad5100 the insulation blankets are cut from a bulk roll and will cost us around $8 at Falco’s in Spokane. I believe the fiberboard is under $20 at the same place. Altogether that’s <$30 every 5 or so years which seems a lot better than the $200+ price we were told the BK cats cost and have to be replaced at approximately the same intervals. The above Q irt burn times as related to cat/non-cat really gets me and I'd like to hear any thoughts you may have on that as well.

I have access to my own wood I don’t want to deal with buying pellets or the extra parts you mentioned (igniters, auger assemblies, etc), not to mention their need of power. That’s why I didn’t even consider a pellet stove.

 

[Wet1]

53,

1) You do have to replace the cat every 4 to 10 years, but look at what you get in return... much longer burn times/the ability to turn the stove down lower, and a more efficient stove (you'll use less wood). It's a small price to pay given the benefits IMO. I should also mention, many non-cats have baffles or panels that need to be replaced ever few years as well, and many of these aren't cheap.

2) I think the part you're missing here is that a cat can burn longer because the air can be turned down lower than it can with a non cat. The EPA will not let a non-cat be sold if the owner can dial it down so low that the fire will smolder because those stoves do not have the ability to re-burn the gases unless the stove is fairly warm. With a cat, the stove can be dialed way down to the point were there's little or no visible fire in the box, but the smoldering wood is letting off enough smoke that the cat will remain active. And yes, there's still sigficicant heat coming off the stove thanks to the hot cat. Actually, the cats are very efficient burning at these levels. So Quad's advertised burn times of 19 hours for a 3 cu ft box and 10 hrs for a 1.6 cu ft box are pie in the sky dreams. The BK having the cat, automatic thermostat, and a 4.3+ cu ft fire box, it is able to burn well over 24 hours... But I'm also skeptical about the 48 hr burn times they advertise, but on paper it's very possible under prime conditions. It should be noted the BK insert is the smaller Princess model, although I know guys have said they've still seen over 20 hour burns with this model as well.

 

[SolarAndWood]

The BK having the cat, automatic thermostat, and a 4.3+ cu ft fire box, it is able to burn well over 24 hours... But I'm also skeptical about the 48 hr burn times they advertise, but on paper it's very possible under prime conditions.

Just when things had settled down...

53, also be sure and check out where the firebox size #s are coming from. My 4.3 cu ft BK King in reality only holds just a little over 3 cu ft of useful space. To me, useful firebox size is what I can reasonably replicate what my stack outside looks like. In the King, it is 18" long splits, 2' wide and 15" tall. While shopping, open the load door(s) and figure out for yourself how big the box really is without having to mess around with the wood or worry about one rolling over and smacking the glass which can easily be a $100+ lesson.

 

[Wet1]

The BK having the cat, automatic thermostat, and a 4.3+ cu ft fire box, it is able to burn well over 24 hours... But I'm also skeptical about the 48 hr burn times they advertise, but on paper it's very possible under prime conditions.

Just when things had settled down...

My 4.3 cu ft BK King in reality only holds just a little over 3 cu ft of useful space. To me, useful firebox size is what I can reasonably replicate what my stack outside looks like. In the King, it is 18" long splits, 2' wide and 15" tall. While shopping, open the load door(s) and figure out for yourself how big the box really is without having to mess around with the wood or worry about one rolling over and smacking the glass which can easily be a $100+ lesson.

Are you suggesting the 4.3 cu ft number is not accurate? Or are you saying that the number might be accurate, but you can't put that much wood into the firebox? Is the box in the Ultra model smaller? I didn't think it was, but guess it's possible since it has a different shape.

Also, are you loading NS or EW? I think the way to go with the BK is NS since you can back the box this way and you don't have to go worry about logs rolling into the glass.

 

[3fordasho]

firefighterjake- Thanks for the welcome & the thoughts.
Yep the cat issue is perplexing to us because of 1) the repeated cost involved and 2) I’m completely baffled as to why a cat would have “anything” to do with burn times. It seems like its main function is simply to re-burn exhaust and reduce emissions which shouldn’t really impact how long a given piece of wood burns more or less than any other stove right?... Shouldn’t a given fuel source take about the same amount of time to burn in any EPA re-burning stove? It seems like firebox capacity should be the largest factor related to burn times (more wood, and longer whole pieces should burn longer). The Quad’s stated 19 and 10 hour burn times for a 3 and 1.6 cu.ft. box respectfully seems unbelievably good. When I hear burn times of 24-48hrs for a blaze king I get highly suspicious and start thinking about smoldering scraps of 1/8" embers... It’s way more confusing than I would hope LOL.


3for- Wow, 2 freestanding wood & a pellet stove for one house? For my Quad5100 the insulation blankets are cut from a bulk roll and will cost us around $8 at Falco’s in Spokane. I believe the fiberboard is under $20 at the same place. Altogether that’s <$30 every 5 or so years which seems a lot better than the $200+ price we were told the BK cats cost and have to be replaced at approximately the same intervals. The above Q irt burn times as related to cat/non-cat really gets me and I'd like to hear any thoughts you may have on that as well.

I have access to my own wood I don’t want to deal with buying pellets or the extra parts you mentioned (igniters, auger assemblies, etc), not to mention their need of power. That’s why I didn’t even consider a pellet stove.

Let me clarify a couple points- I have two fireviews, the pellet stove is gone, with the newest fireview taking it's place. I can easily heat the place with one fireview, but the pellet stove was in a more ideal location for a wood stove, and with the current tax incentives I fiqured why not put a second fireview there? It gives me the luxury of letting one or the other cool completely for cleaning. (less ash flying around this way). My only point about quadrafire was I think they're pretty proud of their spare parts - otherwise they seem to make a quality product. If you've got a low cost source for the delicate fiber/insulation products that need to be replaced in non-cats, an advantage for you for sure- wasn't some one just looking for some for a Englanger 30 because the oem replacements are $150? and this is a low cost stove? I'd rather buy a cat @$125 once in a while.

As far as cat vs. non-cat, I've never run a non-cat, but the ability to turn a cat stove way down for lower heat outputs is very helpfull during this time of the year and in the spring- I can easily run the fireview at 300F stove top temps when I'm around, I'll see more flucutation when I'm in and out but still not overheating the space. I'm not sure what the experience would be with a non-cat stove.

One things for sure with a cat stove- make sure your wood is dry- if you're not one to get ahead on your wood supply a cat stove may not be for you.

 

[SolarAndWood]

I'm sure if you follow all of the contours and add the space around the cat, you will find that the marketing is true.

However, when I did Jags test of seeing what would actually fit in there, I fit just over 90 lbs of 2 year seasoned locust. This was NS 18" splits, while not sloppy, I didn't go out of my way to pack it in nor look for splits that I could wedge in underneath or to the sides of the cat housing. This didn't jive with chimneysweeps number for a cord of locust/128*4.3. So, when I measured it, I found that a reasonable what I am likely to load # is actually just over 3 cu ft. Which, incidentally, made my experiment within a few pounds of what chimneysweep's # was.

I have not seen the other style Kings, so not sure if the firebox is different or not. Stick a tape measure in yours the next time it is cold.

This all said, my old stove which was not a small stove, might have held half at best what this does because of the corners, obstructions, space between the andirons and the glass, etc. This resulted in 8 hour burn times unless it was this time of year when I might get 12. And yes, I learned that $125 glass lesson with the old stove 3 times in 4 years. This is something I didn't even know to think about when shopping for the first stove.

 

[Wet1]

One things for sure with a cat stove- make sure your wood is dry- if you're not one to get ahead on your wood supply a cat stove may not be for you.

I'm not sure this is any more or less true for a non cat as well. Most EPA stoves in general tend to be finiky about the MC of wood. In the past cats could easily be damaged from excessivly damp wood, but since the advent of SS cats (which BK ships with their King stoves), this isn't much of an issue any more. Either way, wet wood should be avaoided with any EPA stove.

 

[Wet1]

I'm sure if you follow all of the contours and add the space around the cat, you will find that the marketing is true.

However, when I did Jags test of seeing what would actually fit in there, I fit just over 90 lbs of 2 year seasoned locust. This was NS 18" splits, while not sloppy, I didn't go out of my way to pack it in nor look for splits that I could wedge in underneath or to the sides of the cat housing. This didn't jive with chimneysweeps number for a cord of locust/128*4.3. So, when I measured it, I found that a reasonable what I am likely to load # is actually just over 3 cu ft. Which, incidentally, made my experiment within a few pounds of what chimneysweep's # was.

This all said, my old stove which was not a small stove, might have held half at best what this does because of the corners, obstructions, space between the andirons and the glass, etc. This resulted in 8 hour burn times unless it was this time of year when I might get 12. And yes, I learned that $125 glass lesson with the old stove 3 times in 4 years. This is something I didn't even know to think about when shopping for the first stove.

I see what you're saying. But as you noted, this is generally true for most stoves out there. One other trick you might want to do (if you need more fire box area) is to remove one of the layers of fire brick. The factory said they put the second layer in for the ash pan dump. They said if I wasn't going to use it, that I could remove a set of bricks. I haven't done so, but I thought I'd mention it should you need more room in your firebox.

 

[fredarm]

I like my PE Vista. It's well built, easy to use and throws a lot of heat for its size. However, if you can fit a bigger insert, go for it. I couldn't due to fireplace size. I like the steel baffle, particularly with a smaller stove. I don't have to worry if I hit the baffle with a split when reloading.

 

[The Dali Lima]

Have you thought about placing registers in the floor upstairs?

 

[53flyer]

However, when I did Jags test of seeing what would actually fit in there, I fit just over 90 lbs of 2 year seasoned locust. This was NS 18" splits, while not sloppy, I didn't go out of my way to pack it in nor look for splits that I could wedge in underneath or to the sides of the cat housing. This didn't jive with chimneysweeps number for a cord of locust/128*4.3. So, when I measured it, I found that a reasonable what I am likely to load # is actually just over 3 cu ft. Which, incidentally, made my experiment within a few pounds of what chimneysweep's # was.

This all said, my old stove which was not a small stove, might have held half at best what this does because of the corners, obstructions, space between the andirons and the glass, etc. This resulted in 8 hour burn times unless it was this time of year when I might get 12. And yes, I learned that $125 glass lesson with the old stove 3 times in 4 years. This is something I didn't even know to think about when shopping for the first stove.

S&W- I noticed you talked mainly about putting splits into your BK. Do you ever use unsplit log pieces (assuming very well dried out)instead? I assume they would burn longer unsplit than split correct?

So if your old stove could burn 8-12hrs on half a BK load doesn’t that mean it was burning the equivalent of the BK burning for 16-24hrs based on the BK having 2x the capacity? Was your old stove a cat or non cat?

Fred- The PE Super is one of the stoves I’m looking and your thoughts irt the steel baffle are some of the reasons (as well as the lifetime warranty). It’s also surprisingly affordable compared to many other stoves in the same general size range (on special for $1750 including blower).

Dali- I have 2 floor vents that go directly between the 2 floors. They’re basically 12”x10” manufactured boxes with grates that screw on the top and bottom for airflow. A variable speed fan is mounted inside to pull the air up. Unfortunately, we have to keep the lower room around 80-90+ degrees iot get the upstairs to a descent temp upstairs and we figure it makes more sense to have a stove upstairs where we’re at 95% of the time. That way, we aren’t wasting wood trying to get a room we don’t even occupy that much up to such high temps. It’s really never been very comfortable to go into that room in the 80’s or 90’s for very long either.

3for, S&W, Wet- (I posted the following in a different thread but am also posting here in case you don’t see the other thread)
Well you’re all hitting on the main things making me compare cats to non cats (burn temp/burn time and possible low flue temp relationship to efficiency of heat transfer to living space). The other thing that seems weird to me is that the wood size is listed at 16 inches for the Princess model and most of the non-cat stoves can take an 18-20in (found one that takes 24in). I’m surprised the Princess is only 16in.

A cause of great frustration for me is that generally if a better mousetrap is devised all mousetrap makers move to the new construction method. Therefore, if one way is substantially superior to the other you would expect all manufacturers to go to that particular method so why hasn’t that happened with cat vs. non-cat? It seems a bit liks religion to the extent that iot fully get behind the cat idea you have to push the "I believe" button. To be honest, I seriously wish all stoves were either cats OR non-cats so the comparison process could be easier because trying to compare the two and listening/reading all the input from dealers and people here is giving me a headache… I still like the info; it just gives me a headache LOL.

 

[SolarAndWood]

You will see references to EW loading which is right to left and NS which if front to back. The BK stoves load NS which is why they have a relatively short recommended length for a larger firebox.

The old stove was a cat. I have no problem achieving 24 hour burns this time of year with wood still in the firebox after 24 hours. However, once the heat demand goes up, we will see how it goes.

I split everything and have split it small to speed up drying until I get a few years ahead. I did split some large locust rounds into 6x6s recently. I'll let you know how that works in a couple years.

I don't think you will see stove design converge any time soon. There are a lot of good ideas out there and there still is a lot of experimentation going on.

 

[Highbeam]

Note that the cat stove designs are all old. There are no new cat stoves, just time proven old designs. The BK series has been around for decades pretty much unchanged and has always been extremely popular in the NW probably due to the location of the factory as well as the softwood that we must burn. So what you have is companies trying to invent a better mousetrap with the non-cat design but the cat stove guys are not buying it and keep on making their cat stoves.

The BK has a thermostat. This is huge. You set the heat output you want and then walk away. You can count on fiddling with the air adjustments of a non-cat several times while it is burning in order to keep it running clean and at the temp you want. I have no idea why non-cats don't have this automatic thermostat feature.

You definitely want a blower on ANY insert. The insert needs to have the air moved around it to produce heat from the rear 5 sides of the stove. The blower will make noise but is required to get sufficient heat from the machine. Note that the blowers are nearly always standard equipment with an insert.

All the brands you chose are good. I am leary of the country brand since it was bought out by a furnace company and who knows if they will be bought out by GE or something and you'll be a very small part of their business = not important.

 

[fredarm]

Fred- The PE Super is one of the stoves I’m looking and your thoughts irt the steel baffle are some of the reasons (as well as the lifetime warranty). It’s also surprisingly affordable compared to many other stoves in the same general size range (on special for $1750 including blower).

That's a great deal on the PE Super! It looks like a nice unit--you can load it N/S or E/W.

 

[gpcollen1]

My Insert is an Avalon Olympic - Big Stove - but i love it. I forget the name of the Lopi that is the sister stove. Just make sure you size the stove right for that upstairs of yours.

Blower on an insert - my question is why would you not if one is available. You can always turn a blower off but you cannot magically zap one in there if you want more heat moving off the stove unless you want to fire up your leaf blower quickly...

Secondary v CAT - I just liked the idea and configuration of the secondary burn. No rocket science really and easy as heck to maintain. The light show is really nice with a full load in the stove too...

 

[53flyer]

Note that the cat stove designs are all old. There are no new cat stoves, just time proven old designs. The BK series has been around for decades...So what you have is companies trying to invent a better mousetrap with the non-cat design but the cat stove guys are not buying it and keep on making their cat stoves.

All the brands you chose are good. I am leary of the country brand since it was bought out by a furnace company and who knows if they will be bought out by GE or something and you'll be a very small part of their business = not important.

HB- I don't know as much about the history of BK (other than what a dealer who "used to" carry them said. That could very well make him biased but he basically said BK's old stoves were all non cat and that when the EPA regs came out none of them came close to passing. The story goes (according to him) that they dropped from being a leading manufacturer to almost out of business. Then they went to cats which made their stoves sellable again. It's a little different than what you've heard but that's what I was told. I sent an email to BK (no reply yet) where one of my q's was why do they still make a wood stoves without a cat (Briarwood) if the cat technology is so superior? It just doesn't make sense to make a stove that is supposedly so much worse than what they typically make. Anyway, that's what I heard.

Thanks for the input irt both BK and the other inserts. I'm going round and round irt PE stoves right now based on the other active thread on the forum irt cracks.