Can anyone help make my stove work?

[lorskimac]

Hi everyone.

Just got a new 5 kW TR multi-fuel stove installed. Looks lovely, easy to light, and it ends there.

Doesn't feel like it's giving out much heat. We start it off on high with chopped up pallets for half an hour and then start putting on the seasoned hardwood logs. Have to turn it down a bit for the sake of money and then keep feeding it. Isn't really heating the room, even after being lit for several hours.

It also has the secondary and tertiary air controls - these appear to make no difference to the flame picture. At the minute we're leaving them both open all the time. We're really hoping for the cleanest burn possible. How do we achieve this? Also, how does this airwash business work? Glass is smoky and tarred after every fire. It's not working for us. Any tips on what we're doing wrong? Stove was £500 and installation and hearth came to £1700. Obviously we're a bit miffed now. We just wanted something carbon neutral to heat the living room.

 

[edthedawg]

Just read up a little online about these TR multifuel stoves w/ the "Scirrocco Air Management System". Sounds like a collossal clusterf*** to me, but my inner engineer is intrigued. Could you possibly post some photos looking up into the top of your stove? I can't - from the images available - figure out if this thing has anything resembling a typical US / EPA style baffle/shelf & secondary tubes. Your secondary and tertiary controls sound like euro-variants on the US EPA architecture (or vise versa).

As to the fundamentals - you're getting poor heat output and blacking the glass up. Assuming the stove is actually set up right and you've got proper draft, that indicates you're running poorly seasoned and/or wet wood. And/or compounding your situation by running improperly. On new US EPA-rated stoves we wind up backing our primary air down nearly all the way closed to get good heat output - otherwise the heat all escapes up the flue. On my stove (and many others like it) I can't adjust anything but primary air. I've added a flue exit damper to fix an overdraft condition, and I have heard of varied success w/ people putting dampers onto their intakes. Your ability to balance the 3 air controls will be a definite chore, and if it were me, I'd be begging the installer to come back and show how to work the darn thing. Or maybe they offer a class you can take (that's a joke, btw)

But in all seriousness - if your glass is getting covered in soot, then that's more an indicator that the wood itself is the cause of the problem. You call it "seasoned hardwood logs." Do you get any hissing and/or bubbling from the ends of the wood? is it split? if so, when was it split and stacked? What species? If there's one very popular theme here w/ new users, it's that they think they have great, dry, seasoned firewood - only to discover they should have started collecting and seasoning their wood for years prior to actually burning it...

Good luck and welcome to the Hearth! um. Tallyho?

 

[lorskimac]

Thanks for that.

We'll have to go back to the installers and ask what they think.

The clean glass thing is a standard thing here, as is the 'tertiary burn' (clean burn) thing as most houses are in a smoke-less zone here, so open fires etc. are banned.

We only have the supplier's word that the wood we're getting is properly seasoned. It's a tree-cutting service who chop, season (apparently) and sell what they chop down. It is definitely not pine, we can see that, and certainly seems to be hard woods. The supplier claims the wood is seasoned for two years. We get it in bags, as split logs. There is no bubbling from the ends that we can see.

We do close the primary air down as soon as we can, but the fire will often go out on us. Do you actually need a flame?

Thanks again.

 

[lorskimac]

Will try and post photos of set-up when stove is cool.

 

[edthedawg]

Yes. to burn. you need... flame.

Airwash is typical here too, as part of our EPA-rated primary / secondary systems. Doesn't typically require a lot of control-fiddling to make work. You run hot, the glass stays clean. You are getting poor heat output and blackened glass, so the bottom line is you're not burning hot enough.

If your wood is good, you might try running it wide open after reloading, getting it to "OHMYGOD!" flaming mode and THEN holding it there for 10 minutes, and then slowly close the primary down over the next 20 minutes - a nudge at a time. If you try to back down a not-well-established fire too soon, you get that "fire goes out" problem.

wishing you luck - if you have high confidence in your wood supply, then it comes down to the setup itself and the way you run it. Hopefully some users are on here w/ experience on the Scirrocco system.

One final caution is the amount of creosote you may have already pumped up into your flue - just be careful of it. If you just had the stove installed, you're probably fine. But lots of creo = chimney fire if you're not careful. This is why you DO want to get to the aforementioned "OHMYGOD" mode for at least a brief while every day - keeps the flue clean! If you've only been running like this a week or two, chances are you haven't gummed it up too bad. If the firebox is dripping w/ tar, you've got a bigger problem on your hands.

(if that's the case, don't panic - just get it to OMGflaming, hold it a few minutes, back it down a little, run it back up for a few minutes again - and repeat a few times. Ths inside of a healthy stove should be WHITE, not BLACK.)

and while we're at it - what's your chimney output look like? smoky? or burning clear?

 

[CrappieKeith]

Make sure you have enough make up air too. A tight home will not let a stove/furnace vent very well because of a vacuum like condition,.

 

[lorskimac]

Thanks everyone. I'll learn eventually.

In order for us to get a big old flamey fire going we need to be putting a large log on about every 10 mins which I assume points to us doing something else wrong. We're struggling because the only way we can get a decent flame is to open the primary air, and of course this means that the heat escapes up the chimney. Has anyone got any tips on how to strike a balance with this?

CrappieKeith - Thanks, but we're pretty sure there is plenty of air in the house to feed the fire.

Edthedawg - our chimney emission could be described as a kind of wispy smoke.

 

[CrappieKeith]

Thanks everyone. I'll learn eventually.

In order for us to get a big old flamey fire going we need to be putting a large log on about every 10 mins which I assume points to us doing something else wrong. We're struggling because the only way we can get a decent flame is to open the primary air, and of course this means that the heat escapes up the chimney. Has anyone got any tips on how to strike a balance with this?

CrappieKeith - Thanks, but we're pretty sure there is plenty of air in the house to feed the fire.

Edthedawg - our chimney emission could be described as a kind of wispy smoke.

Now I know this is not our furnace but if you do not have the proper make up air the fire will not burn like you think it should.
I see all sorts of people that say the same thing and struggle until the make up air is provided.

Maybe you have a poor drafting flue.
It appears to be a draft issue.

 

[Jags]

Dark glass after ever fire is a sure sign of something gone wrong.

A: your wood isn't seasoned properly
B: you are smoldering the fire
C: you do not have adequate draft (plugged cap, pipe, makeup air, etc)
D: all of the above

What is the stovetop or flue temps running at?? Just a guess, but I doubt that you are hitting any kind of optimum burn temps. This could be any or all of the above problems.

Are you saying the the primary, secondary and tertiary controls are ALL ADJUSTABLE??

 

[edthedawg]

this is the part where ideas come fast and furious

let's talk basic loading. i'll try to speak in metric. you need a little ash bed, maybe 2-3 cm deep over the whole bottom of the stove... assuming you have coals, rake them forward - there should be a pretty evident spot where the primary feeds. you should be "loading up" w/ 3 mid-sized splits (what's 4"... 10cm? so 10-15cm splits) w/ a handful of littler stuff under it - all piled up top of those coals. If you're only burning 1 log at a time, you are way underfueling your burn. Imagine trying to drive 100kmh on the highway but instead of pressing the throttle down halfway, you only move it a couple mm. Hot burn needs FUEL and plenty of it.

BTW - You should be doing this every 4-6 HOURS, not every 10 MINUTES. OMG you'd go thru a cord a week like that. There are people here who can go 10 or 12 HOURS between reloading. If you are completely burning a mid-sized split down to coals inside of 10 minutes, you have to video it and post it on Youtube for us.

Now, close the door(s?), leave secondary and tertiary OFF i'd guess - they're the only thing i can think to majorly change your burning style. You need primary air to start - period.

Once the flame really establishes (see my earlier post) then i think you want to start swapping - nudge the primary closed and secondary open, equal small amounts, every couple minutes.

Draft is definitely a concern, but I'm guessing you have OK-ish draft for now. If you have a flue damper, leave it OPEN. at least until we diagnose some more. I'd just ignore the tert control right now too, until more knowledge can be gained...

If you don't have a stovetop thermometer, get one. quickly. and if you could be so kind to us US gits, please report any temps w/ C -> F conversions? You should be getting 500-ish F stovetop temps, I'd guess. Maybe higher - need to know more about the stove! If you have a manual online, please let us know where to find it? thanks and good luck!

 

[savageactor7]

lorskimac it could be the wood that isn't really seasoned enough...around here seasoned wood is a relative term.

Go to a local construction site and look for the trash container. Pick yourself up some of those scrape pieces and see how the stove burns with them.

 

[mayhem]

Hi everyone.
Also, how does this airwash business work? Glass is smoky and tarred after every fire. It's not working for us.

If you're getting a poor flame and the glass is getting covered with what looks like tar, you're wood is not seasoned long enough.

Try burning just cut up pallets, I'm betting the wood is the problem.

 

[CrappieKeith]

Hi everyone.
Also, how does this airwash business work? Glass is smoky and tarred after every fire. It's not working for us.

If you're getting a poor flame and the glass is getting covered with what looks like tar, you're wood is not seasoned long enough.

Try burning just cut up pallets, I'm betting the wood is the problem.

For 30$ online a guy can buy a moisture meter...then you'd know for sure.


A: your wood isn’t seasoned properly
B: you are smoldering the fire
C: you do not have adequate draft (plugged cap, pipe, makeup air, etc)
D: all of the above

Exactly!


For the most part all stoves and furnaces have been tested out.
The run on the basics of physics.Once there is an operational standard and that is followed by all users...alll users get about the same preformance in like conditions.
WHEN ANY OF THESE PRECONDITIONS CHANGE...SO WILL THE OPERATION OF THE UNIT.....
Typically we do not like how the new operation is.
As stated one or all ABCD exsists.

 

[Wood Duck]

Reading about new stove problems here on Hearth.com suggests that about 90% of problems come from poorly seasoned wood. Even if your supplier is telling the truth that the wood is 'seasoned' two years, that doesn't mean it is seasoned enough. Many hardwoods require more than a year of seasoning AFTER they are cut and split. In Ireland, which I imaging to be relatively cool, humid, and less-than-ideal for seasoning wood, it might take a full two years or more to season firewood. Maybe your supplier stockpiles wood for two years, but only splits it as needed, or maybe he is lying or exaggerating about the two years of seasoning. Who knows? I suggest you find some wood that you are sure is dry and burn a few fires with that. One way is to find somebody with a pile, preferably a covered pile, of old, split firewood. Around here, about half of the homes have a stock of firewood somewhere in the yard or on a porch, but far less than half of the homeowners actually burn wood very often. i am sure most of them would happily trade new wood for old to help a neighbor out. Another option is to get some scraps of lumber, which is kiln dried before sale, and mix that with some of your wood. If you have what you are sure is dry wood and still can't get a nice hot stove, then you can concentrate on other potential problems.

 

[CrappieKeith]

Do not over look the make up air.
Here's the fooler.
You have been outside and come in the home. Air comes in with you. Now go light up your stove. It initially fires properly but then it uses enough air or expells enough out of the home...this is when you start to have issues.
I will gaurentee you that if you do not have make up air you will continuelly have this same problem no matter how dry the wood is.

Ceiling fans in the bathroom also expell air.A clothes dryer also expells air.
You need to make up for this air leaving your home.
Sure there's enough air to breath but a fire need to have the right amount or you will begin to have burning issues.

 

[begreen]

A quick test for makeup air is to leave a nearby window open a little bit. If the flame wakens, that's a sign of the fire needing more air.

 

[Todd]

One other thing that may be your problem is the size of your splits. If they are too large they have a harder time lighting off. Try burning a load of 3 inch splits with good air gaps between them. A tightly packed load can cause poor performance especially if the wood isn't dry enough and the splits are a bit on the large size.

 

[karri0n]

I suppose I'll be the first to ask, since everyone is assuming the draft is not an issue,

What is your chimney setup? Your chimney should be the same size as the exhaust output on the stove, lined fully to the top with a stainless steel liner if it's a masonry chimney, and at least 15 feet tall. It should also have a rain cap, and the rain cap must be clean and not plugged. be certain there are no chimney obstructions and that the cap doesn't have any buildup on the screen. if you have been getting black tar-like stuff on the glass, you can be absolutely certain this is in the pipe, and very well could be clogging the screen on the cap even after only a short time burning the appliance.

 

[edthedawg]

Not to start a holy war over seasoning, but I can personally attest to ways of getting poorly seasoned wood to fire hot, keep the glass clean, and heat the house accordingly. it's call supplementing. And Ireland should be rife w/ supplemental products, like our BioBricks, EcoFirelogs, etc. Get some good, dense, dry supplementals in w/ your wood and you should have that potential issue nicked, at least for the time being. Wood seasoning and basic stove operation are the two most important things w/ running a stove.

I would contend that "basic operation" is really the major part of the OP's current problem that we should be addressing. Split size & arrangement, plus setting / adjustments (and timing of those adjustments) of all three air controls - that's where i'm focusing.

I really wish we had a better understanding of these secondary / tertiary controls...

 

[CrappieKeith]

I suppose I'll be the first to ask, since everyone is assuming the draft is not an issue,

What is your chimney setup? Your chimney should be the same size as the exhaust output on the stove, lined fully to the top with a stainless steel liner if it's a masonry chimney, and at least 15 feet tall. It should also have a rain cap, and the rain cap must be clean and not plugged. be certain there are no chimney obstructions and that the cap doesn't have any buildup on the screen. if you have been getting black tar-like stuff on the glass, you can be absolutely certain this is in the pipe, and very well could be clogging the screen on the cap even after only a short time burning the appliance.

Great points!

 

[ControlFreak]

Thanks everyone. I'll learn eventually.

In order for us to get a big old flamey fire going we need to be putting a large log on about every 10 mins which I assume points to us doing something else wrong. We're struggling because the only way we can get a decent flame is to open the primary air, and of course this means that the heat escapes up the chimney. Has anyone got any tips on how to strike a balance with this?

Lorskimac,

Everything you have described here points to high moisture content in your wood. It is expected that if you have high moisture, that you will struggle with keeping a flame, and the stove just won't seem to heat up. The fire will tend to be smoky, and your glass will be covered in soot. The firebrick inside the stove will also be covered in creosote rather than being a nice clean grey color.

You can always get moist wood to burn, but you just need a lot of draft to keep a flame going, and even then it won't be burning clean. This can drive you crazy. Even if your wood isn't sizzling, there can still be enough moisture in there to hinder your fire. Although this can be counter-intuitive to newbies, wet wood must burn faster (if you keep a flame going) because it's having to evaporate all the moisture.

I also noticed that you are putting on "a large log". Large pieces of firewood will always burn cooler, especially if these are rounds with bark all around, because you have moisture hiding under the bark, and because you're having to heat up the interior of this large log. Try to keep your firewood to pieces no larger than 3-4" across. A 4" round should be split in half. Wood that's completely dry should have bark that's loose and peeling off.

There's one additional point that I haven't seen here: You always need to have at least two logs for a good fire. A lonely log doesn't burn well. You need to have two logs in close proximity (but not trapping gasses) with hot coals below them to have a good fire even with reasonably dry wood.

Having a stove thermometer is essential to see what your operating temperature is. However, since you said that the stove isn't producing any heat, you can already be sure that it's not getting hot enough to operate cleanly.

You need to get your hands on some wood that you know for sure is crispy dry to experiment with. Construction lumber is generally very nice and dry, if you can get your hands on some scraps, or just go pick up a couple 2x4's and cut them up. You already commented that you start the fire will cut up pallets. Load the whole firebox with the cut up pallet pieces or dry construction lumber. If you don't get a piping hot fire with this, then you know you need to look for an installation problem. I don't think that you have an installation problem because if you did, then you'd be getting a hot fire with the draft wide open.

Get busy now acquiring your wood for this coming winter. If you don't already have your wood for this winter, then you're already late. Ideally, you should have bought your wood for this winter early last summer. So this summer, you'll need to acquire wood for two winters to get caught up. The best wood to purchase if you are behind is ash (if you can get it). Ash has very low moisture content even when you cut it green, and it takes less time to dry.

Blessings,
Dan

 

[lorskimac]

Wow. Thanks for everyone taking the time to reply and helping us out like this. Here are some photos of my stove in case that helps. No laughing at how small it is

I also have this link to try to explain the 3-air system I've got : http://www.stovax.com/images/cms_brochures/60_stovax-stoves.pdf

Unfortunately the diagram I wanted to show you all hasn't come out but the 3-air thing is explained on the right side of page 3.

I'm going to try to respond to everyone in turn. Here goes...

CrappieKeith - I'm pretty sure the draft is good. Light the fire with the door open, nice fire. Close the door, big flames and you can see the draw upwards. Perhaps I will get one of those moisture meters. I wouldn't like to think the wood selling guy was screwing us. We do not have a clothes dryer or an extractor fan. Our double glazing is ancient and draughty. Our living room (where the stove is) is 100 square feet with two doors. These open into the kitchen and the two storey hallway, three bedrooms and a bathroom. We live with all these doors open almost all of the time. I think its a pretty airy house. Circulation is provided by two girls aged 2 and 4 who run and flap all around the ground floor from dawn to dusk despite my protestations. Hopefully, air is not our problem. Thank you for your care and attention though. We'll open a window to rule it out.

Jags - I believe you could be spot on with B and possibly A. We can mostly touch the top of the stove with our bare hands. Seriously bad news, yeah? Yes my friend, primary, secondary and tertiary controls are all adjustable. On the picture of the front of my wee stove the primaries are the two bottom wheels, the secondary is the the silver lever top right and the tertiary is the silver lever top left. Mad (that's irish mad, not American mad: here it means crazy)

Edthedawg - Thank you for converting the measurements to European. I'm an old-fashioned lady and can do inches as well as centimetres, its just farenheit that I need a converter for. I will get myself a thermometer and report to you guys in farenheit. I can set a fire pretty well and it always lights well first time. I think our logs are too big. Your youtube suggestion made me cry with laughter. The 10 hour reload thing is making me jealous though! Our manual was hilarious. This is a Dublin company and the manual said little more than "Put wood in the hole and light it". We'll try closing the other two controls to light it and following your suggestions. I am heartened by your talk of successful burning of rubbish logs.

Savageactor7 - Been trying to get my hands on wood like that, but Northern Ireland is small and famously tree-less. Makes you question my sanity, doesn't it?

Mayhem - We were using pallets only for the first week and still had the blackening and the tar. They seem to be mostly a pine type of wood.

Wood Duck - I'm definitely going to get some very dry wood to try. I'm in County Antrim and if anyone here has a wood pile outside their house I will fall off my sofa with shock. We just don't get that here and most people do not have any kind of real fire. It's all oil or gas-fired central heating here.

BeGreen - We'll try that, hopefully to just rule it out.

Todd - Sounds like the logs are too big. They're 5 or 6 inches. Sometimes they fill the whole fire box. My own stupidity is slowly dawning on me...

KarrieOn - Chimney is masonry and slightly larger than stove outlet but a kit has been fitted to match the two up. We don't have a steel liner and were assured it wasn't needed (just as well as we couldn't afford it!). There is a clear and well fitted rain cap thing outside.

Controlfreak - As you can hopefully see, there is no nice grey colour inside my stove. I'm afraid I wouldn't know which bit is the firebrick if my life depended on it. Yes, looks like wood is probably too big. Will buy one of those spike things. Two logs will then fit in. As for stockpiling wood, did I mention Ireland has a severe shortage of trees? (Yes, I am a fool) My husband's business partner has a neighbour who wants rid of a load of ash trees so if we could just get a lorry and a chainsaw... Will hunt for proper dry wood this weekend.

A huge thank you to all of you. It is very much appreciated. We will try all of these suggestions and report back to you. This is the best help ever! If I manage to get a good fire going, I'll post a pic.

Thanks again
lorskimac

 

[Todd]

Your stove looks more like a coal burner than a wood burner. It looks like there is a coal basket and the air comes up underneath which is ideal for coal, but not so good for wood. Maybe those different air controls are for different fuels?

 

[edthedawg]

1 - does the coal basket possibly come out? wood burns best right on the bottom of the stove.

2 - DEFINITELY split the wood down smaller. at least half the current size.

 

[Jags]

Yep, split those logs down further. Also, from the burn pattern on the log in your stove....I think your wood is not properly seasoned. If wood is your only fuel source (not coal), get rid of that log cradle and leave about 10-15 centimeters of ash on the bottom, and set the wood on that.

On startup, pour air to that baby. Let it breathe until you have a stove top temp that feels like its going to melt your face off (about 280-290 C.) before tuning it down. On page 3 of the .pdf it does explain a little on the 3 stage air. The pictures are not loading properly for me, but review that. It appears that at least one of the controls is not used during a typical WOOD fire, after the fire is established.

My guess is: you have a couple of things that added up, is making for a difficult fire. Wood quality, wood size and air control.