Cast Iron Vs. Plate Steel

[dlpz]

I think I have narrowed down my wood stove choices to Quadrafire 4300, Jotul 500 Oslo, and Regency F2400. Now comes seeing who I can get the best price on the unit and the install w/ Stove Pipe.

But I just can't figure out which is better, Cast Iron or plate steel, Radiant heat or convection? There is a price difference between the two. Also how long will each last? I'm not sure if I'll be leaving the stove here when I sell the house in 3 years or take it with me.

I'm kind of leaning toward the Quad based on reviews. I really want a stove that doesn't smoke out the neighbors and doesn't smoke out me when I reload it. Another potential issue is the closest woodstove dealer is a Jotul dealer which makes me lean toward the Oslo, all the other dealers are 45 minutes to an hour away.

Guess I'm just looking for some guidance!

 

[littlesmokey]

You're going to have to give us more information to assess the options. Where are you located, put that in your profile so it always appears in your post. Tell us about your house. Some open floor plans do better with convection, others with drafted stoves. If you have lots of power outages, convection would probably be better.

You've narrowed to three good stoves, what are your preferences on each? Honestly, I think we would give the OK to anyone of them.

 

[elkimmeg]

I second the wise comments Littlesmokey made. We need more info to make an educated response. Part of the issue is the home layout the climate and realistic heating goals

Next is the venting setup ,Convection Vs radiation is meaningless till some more details are forwarded to digest. The ABC of manufactures is fruitless till the whole picture is developed

 

[dlpz]

I live in Upstate NY, Syracuse to be exact, actually in Baldwinsville. Current house is a 1400 sq ft ranch on a slab. Basically its a "L" short part of the L are 3 bedrooms and a bath, long part is a living room, kitchen and family room at the end of the L. the family room is 16 x 16 with cathedral ceilings which does have gas fireplace putting about roughly 26000btu. It heats that room well but not much else. the house is totally open from living room to family room. Kitchen is roughly 17 x 15 and living room is roughly another 16 x 16. The house is a modular from the 50's, 2x3 walls with about an inch and half of fiberglass insulation. I've started gutting and re insulating the walls with R-13 but only in the bedrooms so far and added a layer of R-30 over the R-13 in the attic. The windows were updated at some point in time with vinyl but still not the greatest windows. I want to put the stove in the living room so it will heat the bedrooms as well, the living room has a large freezing cold leaky 4 x 6 bay window.

My furnace is an inefficient piece of crap. Originally the house must have been electric heat, the duct work added later because most of the registers are in the ceiling. Don't ask me why I bought the house, long story but I couldn't rent an Apt. of the same Sq footage any cheaper than my mortgage is!

 

[littlesmokey]

Hey, the good cleaning vultures will arrive soon. Don't worry they will only munch the good meat. Seriously, are you saying you want to replace the gas fireplace with a wood burner? You now have some other issues. Tell us about the gas burner and how it is installed? We're getting there, but you still need to give us more information. I might also suggest tomorrow when you answer the questions you buy a budget box of legal pads to take notes at Office Depot.

BTW, for all those asking where? You know Syracuse, add to cold zones and freaky changes in daily's and you have B'ville. I lived in Liverpool so I know the 1/2 of your story.

Size seems OK for the stoves you mention. Heating the whole house in January may be tough. Don't start getting creative cause you can't use your current system to distribute. The insulation will make a big difference. The current firebox may be a lost cause. Let us know if it's inside the house, or on an outside wall, inside is best. You will need to have the maker, type and model, if possible. It may mean a complete replacement, but you will still save money. Don't back off. I know the bills there, it really is a groan, but if you are going to burn wood you will save big time.

While you are planning your stove start today building your wood stock. Worst thing you can do is get a great stove and then make it a burning dragon by having to use green wood. At this point if you don't have dry wood, you will have to buy it. Best time is in the next thirty days to lay up a cord or two, maybe three.

There are lots of folk on this site in your area, glad you could join, when your questions are answered, please add to the forum.

 

[dlpz]

Glad to hear from a former CNY'r! Somehow everywhere I go I always run into someone who lived in or around this town!

I had chest deep snow on my roof last year, thought about pulling the snow blower up on the roof to clear it.

I'm going to keep the Gas fireplace, its in the wall and the only heater in the family room, a Majestic DVR36. It does a good job for the room and we actually lost power for about 12 hours on one of the coldest days last year and did its job well. But it in no way heats the whole house. I want to put the wood stove on the other side of the house and really heat it. I went through the whole pellet/corn debate with alot a people and tree hugger's but too many moving parts/maintenance issues plus the power issues bug me. Winters here are just too unpredictable for ice and power issues. Also i just want to flatten out my Utility bills, wood is still relatively cheap.

My dad has a camp up in Ontario on the Rideau Canal which is roughly the same size as my house. When I was younger (20 years or so) he had purchased what he called a Quebec Heater for it. looked like a short hot water tank, top loading. i have distinct memories of that stove pumping out massive heat, my brothers and I sitting outside in our jammy's in the dead winter because the stove was so dang hot!

Anyway, basically in the dead of winter I want to be able to heat my house and tell National Grid to eat it!

 

[littlesmokey]

Sounds like your dad had a top loading "chunk stove" there was a unit south called "warm mornings" they really were like a stove out of control. They really put out the heat.

Your new stove is a "Virgin install" then? are you planning a new stack? will it rise directly? It seems you have done a great deal of homework. Now you are ready, "JEDI" for the knowledge of the elders, and well, some buckroos too. My suggestion in your area is to keep the stack internal. Go straight up, and add a few feet, I don't think a lot here understand, 20/20. That's twenty below and lake winds at 20mph. It really is tough to heat.

BTW, that nasty glass wall, if you can't get it replaced, make or buy a "Window blanket" there are high R rated blinds that are cheaper than new glass that will make a big difference.

 

[dlpz]

yeah, the install will be new, I had figured it would have to go straight up. I have a strange notion that the install and chimney will be more than the stove. I think I'm going to have to go up at least 20' from stove to cap. Like everybody else in the world I want to get the best stove for my dollar, that's why I just can't make a decision on the cast iron vs plate steel thing. For every good stove review there are a couple bad ones. For some reason I'm liking the Quad 4300 for btu out put and ability to take a 20" log, but unsure of the convection heating, really don't want to run a blower for heat. Did look at the Jotul's today and love the look of cast iron and the ability to throw a screen on it.

Just can't make up my mind!

PS Littlesmokey are you from L'Pool originally?

 

[Sandor]

I used to own the Regency F2400, and I would cross it off your list. I would highly recommend it for emergency/weekend style heating, but for long term burning, it has too many shortfalls compared to whats out there.

 

[begreen]

There are many discussions of cast iron vs steel vs soapstone on this site. Do a search on cast iron steel for some lengthy debates. Eventually they fizzle out because each has it's strengths. As long as you get a quality unit, you'll be happy.

The Jotul Oslo is a great stove and a real good looker. But there is also the Morso 3610, and the Vermont Castings Encore worthy of a looksee. On the steel side, the Quad has a good reputation, but there is also the Napoleon 1900 and the Pacific Energy Summit, which is available in enamel or with a cast-iron outer shell (Alderlea T6) for a more traditional appearance.

This sounds like a manufactured home, is it? Did they really allow 2x3s to be used on exterior walls?

 

[dlpz]

I'll definitely do the searches and look into the other brands!

The house was built in the 50's when there was a huge GE plant here. They must have slapped these things up to house all the employees. I was going to have insulation blown in but figured it would be cheaper just to gut and re-insulate room by room. I thought I would find 2x4's, and was certainly surprised by the 2 x 3's! I went over to my neighbors house and dragged him over to show him!! The 16x16 Fam. room with the gas fireplace is an add on and thankfully 2x6 construction although inadequately insulated.

I definitely want a home heater that'll last a while, I don't want to make the investment again for a while and I certainly don't want to be kicking my self in the a$$ for buying the wrong piece of equipment! Certainly on a budget but willing to go over if it makes sense to buy a better stove.

 

[littlesmokey]

dlpz:

I'm with BeGreen, is this a pre-built? In that part of the country you can have huge snow loads that may be a problem. Hope the roof has a steep pitch, and you have a roof rake to remove the snow.

If budget is a consideration there are the DutchWest line and Englander. Not as pretty and more "plane jane" type, but they can crank out the heat. Soapstones are much more money and may not be practical. Keep in mind the size of the fire box is the main consideration for long burns, not necessarily related to max Btu output. BTW, the Encore can be top loaded, if you are nostalgic.

On the personal question you asked, I'm a Western US native. Did grad school at penance SU soooooo loooonnnnngggg ago.

 

[dlpz]

No, I avoided my penance at SU and partied my way through the SUNY system. Although I have taken a couple classes at SU, most of my time on the hill was spent at Hungry Charley's! Which now a days is a Starbucks or something insane like that.

I've lived in the house now 4 years, I replaced the roof last year. The pitch is low I think around a 3, when I re-insulated the attic I also vented all the soffits with baffles and etc. I'm not kidding when I say I've thought about dragging the snow blower on the roof, I rake it or shovel it as needed! I have a german shepard/lab mix who I have found to climb the snow banks and hang out on the roof, guard dog with a view. I'll try to attach a jpeg, don't know whether it'll come out. this was a nice lake effect drop over night, the snow on the roof is waist deep, the drift over the garage was chest deep, about half an hour north they were getting 4-6 ft a night, every night for weeks.

Anywho, looked at PE's website at the Alderlea T5, very nice! Unfortunately no dealers close to here, still thinking Quad 4300,
going to go on lunch break tomorrow to another VC dealer who also does Hearthstone, see what they have to say. If the jpeg of the snow goes through have some jpegs of the interior of the house I'll put up.

 

[begreen]

I did a couple years at SU back in the early 70's. Nice snow storms there. And yep, that's a serious snow load test. Looks like you survived. I like the view dog option. Must be a cute sight. Actually the place has a bit of charm, so I can see the appeal.

Carpniels is looking into a a PE and he lives close by in Rome. And there is a dealer in Oswego, so it looks like there is a way to get one if you want a PE. However, I think the Quad will work just great for you as well.

 

[BrotherBart]

Carpniels is looking into a a PE and he lives close by in Rome. And there is a dealer in Oswego, so it looks like there is a way to get one if you want a PE. However, I think the Quad will work just great for you as well.

I too think that Quad will get'er done. Of course there is another stove that I know of that will cook that snow off that roof in a heartbeat but it is Mike and Corie's job to sell stoves. Not mine.

 

[begreen]

Yep, the Englander NC30 would be fine too. But I am not certain about dlpz's desires. I would go for the Oslo or the Alderlea for function and beauty. But the Englander or Quad have an edge for quick warm up and clean burning.

dlpz, do you have a mate that has an opinion here too or is this a solo decision? What is your lifestyle? Do you intend to run this thing 24/7 or mostly in the evenings and on weekends?

 

[elkimmeg]

Many stoves in Ny and the northeast are handled by John of BAC distributions and also a member here. He also distributes PE stoves VC and dutchwest I do not know the others.

Maybe someone will pm him to help out here. I too agree quadra-fire is a quality manufacturer. If considering plate steel Mike and Corie are members here and work at Englander
a Decent made in USA stove where on slogan rings true most BTU's for the Buck and they have very good GPH effeciency nunbers thay burn very clean for that size fire box.

A word to about manufacture claims what ever the stated BTUS or heated area claims are reduce that by 1/3 the are inflated and not realworld realistic.

Really to approach 8 hour burns one needs a fire box of over 2 cu ft or the aid of great secondary burn control or a cat combustor preferably both features working in concert

 

[dlpz]

Luckily my wife is all in, she really is all about function for price. I guess we have at least one thing in common, we'll see how long that lasts when I ask her to get wood in the middle of Feb.! Although I show her some of the nicer, more decorative stoves to her, its what comes out of the checkbook and if it can at least halve the utility bill its ok. Plus I stay out of her hair with my "projects". I have a good deal of projects going on so she doesn't mind when I spend time in the garage drinking beer and putzing around, Just gotta keep the 50" plasma and the dancing girls hidden!

Actually I do have a question about the Englander stoves, I see them in Home Depot but never really considered them until reading the posts here and want to put the NC 30 on the list. I just don't want to do the install (or be responsible) and really don't trust any contractor HD would hire either, especially since this is a new install. I do like that you can buy stoves at HD really cheap when they are trying to unload them. How do you get them installed and serviced?

 

[Gooserider]

Luckily my wife is all in, she really is all about function for price. I guess we have at least one thing in common, we'll see how long that lasts when I ask her to get wood in the middle of Feb.! Although I show her some of the nicer, more decorative stoves to her, its what comes out of the checkbook and if it can at least halve the utility bill its ok. Plus I stay out of her hair with my "projects". I have a good deal of projects going on so she doesn't mind when I spend time in the garage drinking beer and putzing around, Just gotta keep the 50" plasma and the dancing girls hidden!

Actually I do have a question about the Englander stoves, I see them in Home Depot but never really considered them until reading the posts here and want to put the NC 30 on the list. I just don't want to do the install (or be responsible) and really don't trust any contractor HD would hire either, especially since this is a new install. I do like that you can buy stoves at HD really cheap when they are trying to unload them. How do you get them installed and serviced?

The stuff from Home Depot is going to be either DIY or hire someone, whether it is on your own or through them. It is a doable thing however, depending on just how much of a repair person you are. If you've been doing your own work in fixing the insulation, etc. it sounds to me like you would have the skills needed to do an install. If you get the stove through a dealer, they might install it themselves or hire someone, but having them install it might be almost as much of a crapshoot as the random Home Depot contractor - Many stove shops do great install work, but if you search the forums you will also see some real 'hack job' horror stories. Doing it yourself, you can make sure it's done right, and take a big chunk out of the project budget.

Other than the install question, the Englander stoves seem to be high quality units with an excellent "bang for the buck" value rating.

To do the install you would need to build a hearth to put the stove on, which should be real easy for you since you said the house is on a slab - you essentially don't have much worry about combustible flooring - pull up an appropriate sized area of the carpetting or whatever is on the floor now, and replace it with something that looks good to your eye and won't burn. Maybe put down a few layers of cement board to build the thickness back up if needed... Put the stove on top of the hearth and install a chimney - I'd reccomend a top exit stove for your application, which again makes things fairly easy.

For the chimney you'll need a roof support box, a ceiling pass through, enough "Class A" chimney to go between the two, and reach the required height above the roof (you have a low pitch so won't need that much) and some single or double wall stove pipe to go from the stove to the ceiling pass through. I think you might also need to box in the pipe where it goes through the attic to keep the insulation away from it. All of this is pretty straightforward, and you have a great support network on this board to help walk you through it.

Good luck and welcome to the Forums.

Gooserider

 

[begreen]

The NC30 is particularly notable as being amazingly clean burning and according to BB, able to heat tall buildings with a single fire. In the spirit of complete disclosure, we have one 'glowing' report for the Englander NC30. This is from a well seasoned wood vet and long time, respected forum member. We also are very fortunate to have an Englander tech support person right online here. And one of our own, Corie, is now working for Englander. However, it is a lower priced unit and BB did have some issues that took resolving right out of the box, with Englander. Their response was swift and exceptional.

But if you and your wife want a dealer supported relationship from installation to final sign off, the Englander may not fit your needs. If you want a prodigious heater that offers one heck of a value and are willing to take a bit of the responsibility upon yourself, this stove is worth looking at. Dollars per btu, it's likely the best value.

 

[littlesmokey]

I'm with Goose on this one. If you are redoing your walls, you can do the stove. Take the time to learn the specs, before starting. We have members to talk you through the technical issues. Elk is a code inspector in Ma, and he will make sure you don't go astray. You as much as said biggest bang for the buck and the Edsel look is OK, well, Englander stoves are not Ed's, but they are not Encores either. Understand, because they are sold in Big Box stores doesn't mean they are not very well made stoves. Englander has a different approach to marketing. Retailers sell stoves, Englander services them. Mike won't pipe in here, but he will be the first to solve a problem for a stove owner when it comes up. You see, he's a shy guy, soft spoken, and not inclined to speak up They are manufacturer to retailer direct. Great support though.

If you expect to get the great deal of last year, you will have to wait until seasons end. That for sellers seems to be January. But, don't count on it. This year was weird, not a typical sales year and there were a lot of stove on stock. Fearing having to carry them over, the Big Boxes had a "fire" sale (pun intended and not intended) Sort of like, who could get rid of their store stock the fastest. Stunned all of us.

That said, even the regular prices are good deals. If you check with the Lowes or HD stores, you may find a lone carry over stove. I know of a Sutherlands near me that has three. You also may find it at some other retailer, like a farm and ranch store. If you ask, on a separate thread where to find one in your area, Mike will reply, or you can PM him. His handle is:stoveguy2esw. Check on the members list. He might even have a way to ship you one at a good price.

If you do your research, plan your install and buy the best compatible products, you can save a great deal. You seem to have a simple install (That's for those that do that kind of thing) or should I say a straightforward one. If you have the confidence, go for it. If you don't check with chimney sweeps and stove stores and get the name of installers, contact them and ask for references, contact the references and see if they are satisfied, try and get a look at the installation. By the time you are done here, you will be confident in your stove and the installation.

 

[dlpz]

I think I've come full circle from where I started. You guys have been awesome help!!

A guy I work with is an ex HD general manager and still has ins at HD so I'm going to see if he can wheel and deal anything for me, If he wants to get his orders manufactured and shipped on time he owes me!

Also, the place that services my crap a** furnace is a Napolean dealer and actually right down the road so I'm going to look at the 1900 through them.

two more newbie questions:

1. Is there a real difference in manufacturing specs on Grams/Hr outputs between lets say 2.8 and 1.1?

2. I called a place today that is selling face cords at 55$ if picked up, I haven't called any place else yet since this place is about 3 miles from my house, does seem reasonable?

I am kind of leary on doing the install myself due to clearances, fires, CO issues, permits, and cutting a hole through my new roof. If anything goes awry I can pin it on the installer vs my wife b*tching at me (which she would anyway).

 

[BrotherBart]

At least for the last two years HD has had Simpson Class A stove pipe components in stock during the season also. What they don't stock they can order. Of course the people at the counter where you do the ordering are dumb as stumps. Based on my unbiased sample of three stores when trying to order a stove.

 

[littlesmokey]

I think I've come full circle from where I started. You guys have been awesome help!!

A guy I work with is an ex HD general manager and still has ins at HD so I'm going to see if he can wheel and deal anything for me, If he wants to get his orders manufactured and shipped on time he owes me!

Also, the place that services my crap a** furnace is a Napolean dealer and actually right down the road so I'm going to look at the 1900 through them.

two more newbie questions:

1. Is there a real difference in manufacturing specs on Grams/Hr outputs between lets say 2.8 and 1.1?

2. I called a place today that is selling face cords at 55$ if picked up, I haven't called any place else yet since this place is about 3 miles from my house, does seem reasonable?

I am kind of leary on doing the install myself due to clearances, fires, CO issues, permits, and cutting a hole through my new roof. If anything goes awry I can pin it on the installer vs my wife b*tching at me (which she would anyway).

The numbers are measurement of amount of particulate pollution as tested. Those two figures are very good. Truthfully, one is twice as good, but both are better than starting your car.

Sounds like you are looking now at the Englander, right? I think others here refer to it as the best bang for the buck. If you are doing a straight install, you will have no problems doing the installation, with the forum's help. If you are worried about the cut-through, call a roofer and ask what they would charge to do the cut install the hardware and seal. Honestly I had more trouble installing a toilet. Don't ask, stupid me. The issues of clearance are easy, they are coderequirements and all stoves come with an installation guide that gives them. Most are available for download from the manufacturer before you even buy. The permit will have to be pulled, regardless who does the work, don't think you have to have a licensed installer, if you are doing the work yourself and properly inspected. ELK, jump in here......

If you take the extra time and are methodical seal the joints and use the rights caulk and tapes you have no reason to be concerned about gases or CO or hotspot fires.

I understand there are members on this site that did their install with a telephone stuck in their ear for help from forum members. If you don't know or trust an installer, you are better off doing the job yourself, with help from the Hearth.

 

[dlpz]

O.K., I'm not drinking the Kool-aid just yet, however getting closer. A little more info that I guess I was hiding. A friend of ours installed another friends wood stove so I would have "capable" help, although I use the term a little loosely. I 'm rather a perfectionist as need be, he's rather a let's get this done today I have stuff to do kind of a person.

So , I've attached a Word doc of the layout of my house, A and B represent places I'm thinking of placing a stove. "A" would be a corner install, flue would be more towards the front of the house with a low "dormer" type peak on the western side of it where the wind blows out of. In the winter it blows pretty good, If you look at the JPEG of an earlier post of the out side of the house it would be in the corner by the bay window.

"B" would be going a little more toward the center of the house facing down the hallway to the bedrooms. In the outside JEPG located similar to where the power lines/phone lines attach to the house but at least 2-3 ft in from the fascia. I can probably throw up a better picture of the roof and peaks without the snow if it helps.

Again, give me the opinions on where you guys would likely place the stove. Also, last year I tore up the carpets in the room and laid down laminate flooring, so I 'd like to get some advise on what kind of Hearth pad I can build over it.

Gooserider, I was looking at your post about your party, I've brewed up Mead in the past, my impatience got the best of me and broke into it far too early I think. How long have you been brewing it?