Chimeny problems how to find out

[struggle]

Well I am using the Vigilant tonight after not using it yesterday and while using it tonight for the first say 3 hours it has continouly dripped water out of a seem in the 90 deg elbow.

It is a clay tile 8X8 and my concern is there is a crack in it somewhere between the wall and the second 45 degree turn it takes going up to the roof.

I tomorrow will run my video camera in it somehow to see if it is possible to see anything but am doubtfull as to how this will work. I have in the past tried calling several chimney sweeps in our area and none of them seemed any more informed than I am about it. I even think in most cases I knew more about how the chimney behavior then they did. None of them had a camera for inspection.

The only place in my area that sells stoves said reline it and all problems will go away. This guy I visited yesterday and was also trying very hard to sell me a Lopi Leyden (which I must say I really liked but seems to possibly have some issues) $1780 with blower. I just am not 100 percent comfortable with these guys though. Kind of get the used car salesman feeling about them but they have been around for a while.

If I have the flue relined how does this happen? Does one have to knock out the tile with a drill with some type of hammer thing on it. To allow a drop in liner to fit that can make two 45 downward turns to the thimble? Can the liner be insulated. Can I do this myself with the help of a freind or two and if so how does one buy the liner and what type?

I am at my wits end with this problem. The stove has been running no lower than 500 since started and more at 600 than any other temp. Wood is not sizzling. Stove seems to be doing all that it should.

If I relined then that would also mean buying a new stove as the Vigilant is to be run on a 8"flue.

 

[elkimmeg]

Adjustiable elbows are not as tight as one thinks If you could rework your connector pipe using 22 gage welded seam pipe and fixed elbows you might slove the problem it the water does not drip it the heat will evaporate it. Then posibly double wall pipe should be used It would hold in more heat before entering the clay flue adding more heat in there. With the additional heat again it may evaporate excess water. there are a couple of steps to do before giving up and listen to the used car salesman approach

 

[EatenByLimestone]

I've had that happen. I put gasket sealer on my elbow seams.

Matt

 

[webbie]

Furnace cement from the inside - or, wait it out a bit - They tend to seal up once they get clogged with ash.

You will probably not be able to line it with anything bigger than a 6" unless the ID is 7.5 square or larger. This means you are cutting the flue size way down - the new stove is starting to sound like a good idea - keep in mind you can get some decent money for the old Vigilant on eBay, etc.

You'll never insulate a liner in there, in fact you should make certain you can even get one down. You use a special type of T for the bottom. Rigid pipe will probably fit better than flex.

 

[struggle]

Today I removed the pipe going into the chimney. 8" round pushed into the 8X8 bottom tile.

I chipped all the refractory cement out and then pulled and tugged the pipe out. The Pipe from the stove to the entry to the flue was clean with powdered ash lining it.

From the first tile on up it is just black tar like creosote. The bottom tile is cracked in two different places(the inserted pipe goes beyond those cracks. When I scraped what I could off the second tile (angles up at 45 deg.) I could see what looks like a hairline crack going up on it. I brushed the lower portion of the chimney out from in the basement (there is no clean-out with this system, so one most remove the stove pipe to normally do this). I scraped what seemed like a lot of tar like stuff around where the pipe went into the thimble?

I pushed my video camera up the flue as best I could and I can see nothing but the tar like stuff coating the pipe. Very black and shiny. I of course cannot see any cracks as it is hard focus on anything with a normal camera. It is very clear that there is a lot of creosote being created where the chimney take this 45 and 45 turn again. I can get the 3' fiberglass rods with the brush on it to make these angle with out much fuss.

Next I went outside and went through that little ash dump clean out door and got down into the area where the chimney wall foundation is. I can visually see an area where the wall appears blackened like something has run/seeped over time through the blocks in this area which is where the chimney would be for the wood stove. The blocks are thick and of course I cannot see the clay tile as it is surrounded by another set of blocks as I understand it. I can also access the other side of the chimney as well almost down to the level of the basement floor as on this other side is an area where I can store would in a pass through area to the left of the fire place and this area has a trap door. There is no discoloration of any blocks on this side.

It seems clear to me this clay chimney my have multiple cracks in the area of where the turns are made and also the sides of the chimney on the house are very black and most of the top of the chimney is covered in black as well.

When on the roof today with the stove disconnected and 12 hours after the last burn I can feel the warm are rising out of the top cap. I put a pillow case over the thimble area where the stove pipe goes into the wall and it naturally sucks the cover right into the thimble leaving the impression of the clay opening from trying to suck the pillow case in the chimney. This chimney drafts very well. If one was to use newspaper in the stove it would suck any loose pieces of paper all the way into the chimney and I would bet spit it out if the cap was not on it.

I measured from the top down with a tape measure and the chimney from the top tile down to the wall is 24' long.

What next. Calling doctor ELK Paging DOCTOR ELK! others.

 

[elkimmeg]

I take it this is an exposed to outside chimney? I have dealt with simillar situatyions before the draft does not seem to be the issue But cool air is entering that chimney causing your problem.
I am willing to bet the air is comming in the ash cleanout door. Like I said I've seen this before What I did was use common caulk and sealed the crap out of the cleanout door.

As for whether is needs a liner I would try to seal the ash dump door first. Many clay flues have hair line cracks Is the top crown sealed and in good condition especially around the flue.
Did you know the cap may also restrict draft None of my 6 masonry flues have caps 30 years later still in good condition and drafting fine Again I would try working with what you have.
I also suspect your wood is not as dry as you think. Even if you get a new stove it will be draft sensitive

I got your PM I will answer it but have to clean out my mail box again its filled

 

[struggle]

Good idea about that ash cleanout door but that was sealed with silicone. Previous owner did that as it was back drafting on the fireplace. I had to fight,pry and grunt to break the silicone seal he had done.

Here is an idea. Would one be able to frame in the exposed area of the chimney on both sides to help insulate it? Would that help keep it warmer after it gets rolling.

The last time the stove ran stack temp was always above or at 300 degrees and we had water infiltration (drips) for three hours.

How about knocking a couple blocks out where the turns would be on the flue to see what is going on closer as far as seing where the seepage might be coming from. The chimney is completely block encased.

Take your time Elk.

Anyone else have a take on this? Join in.

What would be the best way to get the tar type stuff stuck to the clay tiles further up the chimney? I bought some tubs of that stuff to add to the fire but am unsure of how well it works.

It is an outside chimney. I think I have a picture of it in the rebuilding thread of the vigilant.

(broken link removed to http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b148/struggle_/DCP_2027.jpg)

 

[elkimmeg]

Here is the situation this black coating has probably been there a while. Your stove in its prior condition burned hot due to so many leaks.

It probably covered up your conditions and dried out excess moisture in your chimney. Plus more heat escapped up the chimney.

Your rebuilt stove emits less heat into that chimney, coupled with moisture ,it heats enough to get that black goop flowing but not enough

to dissipate the moisture. Again I suspect your wood to be not as dey as you think. Whith that said I would place a pan to collect the drippings
Eventually as Craig said it will seal up your joint leaking. Next you can caulk your leaking joint with refactory cement. Seal that ash door.
As for a liner I would hold off till exhausting all other posibitities