Chimney liner only installed in flue?

[Litespeed]

Hello,

Long time reader, first time poster. This website is a wealth of knowledge and appreciate the supporters of this forum.

Anyhow, bought a circa 1979 home to remodel, and just now getting to the fireplace after a year (it was way down the remodel list).

I was going to install a SS liner in my fireplace that had a old Buck 27000 slammer install, certainly a DIY job I could handle, but with my work as a test engineer, often being TDY (like most of this winter), I was not going to get it done this winter season.

Needless to say, that Buck beast was a creosote machine, and the older woman that lived here certainly never run it hot enough, which did not help the situation. So I knew I would need an insert. (I know the Buck is not the most efficient heat generating machine, but for the time being, it will suffice until we can step up.)

Given my predicament , decided to get some estimates for a liner insert.

One company quoted $1600 for the liner and poured insulation. Given the costs to connect to a Buck (150 for the adapter), thought that was a good deal.

Here comes the good part, the gentlemen finished the work last week with 10" SS liner, but only the flue. Crawled in it and look up, no connection and no work on the masonry to accept the liner. It starts at the flue, just above the chamber and terminated at cap with poured insulation. Maybe he thought I would not check out the install when I got back in town.

Called them up, state they do this all the time. "Let us still run it as an open fireplace". Now why in the world am I going to remove that beast, if not to replace it? My comment is it has not solved the problem, that it is still fundamentally a slammer install, just with a better flue. I think this is a bit disingenuous, who would quote or ask for a partial liner? Their quote has no mention of it being partial.

They now want $400 more to finish the connection, which will now require a reducer to 8" for a buck adapter. JOY!

Luckily, I have not paid for the services rendered, as I believe 1600 for services rendered is a bit high, even with 10" SS. I believe in customer satisfaction, just thank the Lord my wife did not pay until I reviewed it!

I've taken some pictures that I will attempt to add to show the inner install, but disappointing to say the least.

I believe heavily in doing the work yourself if you want it done right, go out on a limb for one item, get burned.....excuse the pun.

Thanks all for letting me vent.

Merry Christmas

 

[Litespeed]

Pictures added...

 

[Hogwildz]

Make them run it all the way to the insert!
The other problem is, 10" is too big for any new inserts. They will be either an 8" outlet or 6" outlet depending on which one you get.
Come to think of it, not sure many new insert even have an 8" outlet. Maybe the newer Bucks?
I'd be pissed if I was you.

 

[Litespeed]

Make them run it all the way to the insert!
The other problem is, 10" is too big for any new inserts. They will be either an 8" outlet or 6" outlet depending on which one you get.
Come to think of it, not sure many new insert even have an 8" outlet. Maybe the newer Bucks?
I'd be pissed if I was you.

Pissed Indeed. My wife was a bit surprised by my reaction. If she had already made the funds transaction, It would have been a "whole nother lever"! That is the silver lining.

The Buck adapters I've seen have a 8" outlet. So, now it will take an increaser from 8-10. I'm not sure if an increaser can mate with that setup.

You make a good point, any new inserts down the line will require this again as most are 6". I can deal with that.

I'm not paying one cent until it is installed correctly. That, or negotiate down that price and finish the job myself.

I'm sure these goons are not even thinking insulated back-plate.

Plus, I'm going to run that beast and make them sweep it again!

Good Grief.

 

[Hogwildz]

If it is a fairly straight run, when the time comes for a new insert, with a 6" outlet, hate to say it, but you can prolly reline a 6" down the 10" rather than pull that one out.
Added protection is how I look at it.

 

[woodgeek]

I may be an @ss, but it seems like an honest miscommunication. Depends on the quote. If the quote describes what he did, you have no right to be ticked off, IMO. What does it say?

Of course, Hog is right...the 10" flue is less than ideal for an insert, even if you tied it in. How tall is the stack--if you are on the tall side 20 ft, I bet it will run fine with an adapter, esp since you are insulated.

 

[bluedogz]

I'd be pissed if I was you.

+1.

Certainly, if they provided an estimate and you signed off, legally the onus is on you. That said, I've learned that chimney lining is simple enough that a Neanderthal can do it, and I think that if this guy charged $1600 to install $800 worth of parts (max) he owed you exactly the install you expected.

 

[raybonz]

To put it nicely your installer sucked! Anyone who frequents this forum would know better than to line any chimney with a 10" liner first off when connecting to a woodstove or insert.. Secondly the liner would be directly connected to the stove flue collar.. What you ended up with a glorified slammer install and you'll suffer with an inferior draft compared to running the correct size liner direct connected to the stove/insert.. This isn't rocket science just common sense which apparently your installer lacks.. Hogs idea to slide a 6 or 8" liner inside the 10" liner sounds like a good one to me and would be pretty easy as long as the 10" liner is round all the way down..

Good luck,
Ray

 

[woodmiser]

Bottom line is the quote should have specifically said exactly what work was to be done and how. If you indeed have spent any time on this forum and did any searches and asked questions you would have gotten all consistent answers saying to use a 6" SS insulated liner and connect it to the stove. I don't think you can even find a liner install like that referenced anywhere on this forum as a recommended method.

I'm wondering if the miscommunication was the installer thought you wanted the chimney lined only. I am curious of the condition of your existing chimney before the lining. If the chimney was in good shape than the work done was a waste of time and money in my opinion.

Sounds like the installer was expecting you to do a slammer into the newly lined chimney. Somehow there was some confusion as to the stove you were using and the fact that you said you might be getting a newer stove so he didn't think you wanted a permanent hookup?

Bottom line... I would do as others have said... drop a 6" down through that and you will have a really well done chimney liner.

 

[rwhite]

Guess we'd have to see the quote to pass judgement on the installer. From the looks of the install it does look like he did a good job, just not the one you wanted or communicated.

 

[raybonz]

Guess we'd have to see the quote to pass judgement on the installer. From the looks of the install it does look like he did a good job, just not the one you wanted or communicated.

RW thanx for pointing that out.. Perhaps I was too quick to pass judgement.. Let's see how this plays out..

Ray

 

[mellow]

Did he bust our your terracotta? Trying to figure out how he got a 10 inch liner to fit.

Others have noted the fact that 8" to 10" will be to much volume to get a good draft unless you have a 25ft+ chimney.

Did you measure that liner to see if it is infact 10", from the pics it looks to small to be 10".

 

[Hogwildz]

Some installer purposely do not break down, nor write in detail the installation on paper. They do that on purpose.
My money is on a very lacking detailed document.

 

[woodgeek]

Some installer purposely do not break down, nor write in detail the installation on paper. They do that on purpose.
My money is on a very lacking detailed document.

Indeed. If that was the case here (and his verbal communication was clear) then he's a fraud.

 

[tnwoodburner]

First timer, long time lurker here. I hated to hear about your experience / situation with the new liner install. I found a 25 ft 6†liner in mid tn for $400.00 if you are interested. Might be able to get it for less and fix your problem. Do a search for stainless steel chimney liner on craigslist and it should come up. Poster is from Cave City, TN. Good luck and I hope this helps.

 

[clemsonfor]

First timer, long time lurker here. I hated to hear about your experience / situation with the new liner install. I found a 25 ft 6†liner in mid tn for $400.00 if you are interested. Might be able to get it for less and fix your problem. Do a search for stainless steel chimney liner on craigslist and it should come up. Poster is from Cave City, TN. Good luck and I hope this helps.

I was on chimney liner depot and i found that same liner shipped to my house for 355 i think with top plate and cap as well as connector

 

[webby3650]

If the bid was to re-line the fireplace flue, then pay the man! If it was for a full 8" re-line for the use of the insert, then you got ripped! The job looks good. Does the insert have a round outlet? Some of these old inserts cant be adapted to, because of the shape of the outlet and the placement of the damper.

 

[Benchwrench]

by the look of the pictures it seems the installer assumed the job was to keep the fireplace intact as an open burn fireplace.

 

[Litespeed]

Did he bust our your terracotta? Trying to figure out how he got a 10 inch liner to fit.

Others have noted the fact that 8" to 10" will be to much volume to get a good draft unless you have a 25ft+ chimney.

Did you measure that liner to see if it is infact 10", from the pics it looks to small to be 10".

Merry Christmas all.

Crawled up on the roof today to check the install in more detail.

Item 1: Looks as if the old flue was removed. No more terracotta. Was also wondering how the heck he got 10in SS in there and poured insulation otherwise.

And

Item 2: Confirmed 10 inch SS liner, and my single story run is about 10 feet (which is about 800-900 in liner tops). This makes the 10 inch even more perplexing.

That craigslist quote is interesting, do not need 26 feet though.

Back on the quote, as others have mentioned, it was very generic. My wife and I spoke with him when investigating the flue (this slammer had huge chunks of creosote, so I figured the liner was busted). Confirmed, our discussion then was a liner, about 26 linear feet or tuck-pointing, and a new cap for 1970.

Instead, all I have is a "flue" liner, and a termination cap, terracotta removed, and poured insulation. ( no tuck-pointing), and a bill of $1680. I certainly never mentioned "flue" only, and would have made that correction promptly.

Unfortunately, I was not in town when the work was executed (always a no-no), but to make winter season, pulled the trigger.

I've left them a message and expect to clear this up.

Maybe the better course is to negotiate a legitimate price for the work executed, and go forth on my own from here out.

More Eye Candy

 

[Hogwildz]

If the bid was to re-line the fireplace flue, then pay the man! If it was for a full 8" re-line for the use of the insert, then you got ripped! The job looks good. Does the insert have a round outlet? Some of these old inserts cant be adapted to, because of the shape of the outlet and the placement of the damper.

There are places that offer adapters for rectangular, oval, different shaped stove outlets. Any decent sheet metal shop can fab anything you need also.
There is no point in installing a liner in the manner the installer did if burning a stove in there. If it was just for the fireplace, I could see that. But this looks like a either a complete misunderstanding, or an installer that A. doesn't know wtf he is doing, or is taking a shortcut. Makes no sense to me, since there was obviously a stove in there. Or maybe it wasn't?
Anyways, the guy has a problem, he is looking to get solved.
I'd like to know what the paperwork says, or doesn't say.

 

[webby3650]

If the bid was to re-line the fireplace flue, then pay the man! If it was for a full 8" re-line for the use of the insert, then you got ripped! The job looks good. Does the insert have a round outlet? Some of these old inserts cant be adapted to, because of the shape of the outlet and the placement of the damper.

There are places that offer adapters for rectangular, oval, different shaped stove outlets. Any decent sheet metal shop can fab anything you need also.
There is no point in installing a liner in the manner the installer did if burning a stove in there. If it was just for the fireplace, I could see that. But this looks like a either a complete misunderstanding, or an installer that A. doesn't know wtf he is doing, or is taking a shortcut. Makes no sense to me, since there was obviously a stove in there. Or maybe it wasn't?
Anyways, the guy has a problem, he is looking to get solved.
I'd like to know what the paperwork says, or doesn't say.

There are places that offer adapters. But I can tell you from experience that they, more often than not, won't fit on top of these old units, due to the size of the firebox. Alot of these old units also have an external damper and control rod, this prevents you from connecting the the unit without disabling the damper. I can't speak for your area, but around here it is very common to have a SS lined flue with a slammer insert. Things were done very differently years ago, and a lot of old sweeps don't know, (or care to know) any different. I hate to defend the guy if he pulled a fast one, but this might not be the case here, as you said, I think it is a expensive misunderstanding

 

[Litespeed]

If the bid was to re-line the fireplace flue, then pay the man! If it was for a full 8" re-line for the use of the insert, then you got ripped! The job looks good. Does the insert have a round outlet? Some of these old inserts cant be adapted to, because of the shape of the outlet and the placement of the damper.

There are places that offer adapters for rectangular, oval, different shaped stove outlets. Any decent sheet metal shop can fab anything you need also.
There is no point in installing a liner in the manner the installer did if burning a stove in there. If it was just for the fireplace, I could see that. But this looks like a either a complete misunderstanding, or an installer that A. doesn't know wtf he is doing, or is taking a shortcut. Makes no sense to me, since there was obviously a stove in there. Or maybe it wasn't?
Anyways, the guy has a problem, he is looking to get solved.
I'd like to know what the paperwork says, or doesn't say.

Buck stove was most certainly there. About the only item retained from remodel.

The quote mentions damaged flue. Install liner and 26 linear feet of tuck point and new crown for $1970. Instead, have what you see for 1680.

I can get buck adapters for around 150, and the liner for around $400, need to negotiate cost of services rendered. He mentioned he installs this setup all the time rather than connecting, but he would connect for $400 more (certainly using the oversized flue).

I plan to discuss further in coming days.

 

[Hogwildz]

Ok, did you get 26' of liner, or is it short since he stopped at the damper area of the fireplace?
Didn't point as was discussed and quoted.
Did you get the new crown on top?
Sorry, but what I see is the guy quoted a list of things, which he didn't just miss one thing, but a couple major things, and then shorted the liner.
So he cut the quote down by $290.00, and skipped the pointing, the crown and running the full liner? And you will have to pay for yet another reline. This crap pisses me off.
I would tell him to come get his chitty work, and take it out, and you'll reline the damn thing yourself or find a competent installer. Then you can negotiate after that, cause he ain't going to be wanting to take it out.
You would not need anything additional other than the adapter and a block off plate had he run the liner the way it should have been run. Now your going to shell out cash to finish it from where he ended to the stove, and it will still prolly draft like crap cause of the 10".
10" is useless for any stove or insert. So your going to have to reline it anyway, again! 10" makes no damn sense.
AND, he would not have to have knocked the old clay lining out at all had he run the right size in the first place. Wasted labor and time there. Pay him for his cost on the materials of his crap install, and he can eat the labor! Then either find someone that knows what the hell they are doing, or reline yourself.
Sorry man, I am on your side here, and pissed off myself! This is why I'll drive hours to help someone for nothing, rather than read about them getting jacked by some hack!
Sure would be nice if other members would step the f up and help others in their area out. Less of this crap would happen, and everyone wins.
There are doers, and there are talkers. I know which one I am.

 

[woodgeek]

Just to be clear, you said the flue was 10' long, and the tuckpointing was (supposed to be) 26' ?

 

[woodmiser]

The fact that they did the work without payment does say something for the installer. All that needs to be done is have a 8" liner dropped down that 10" liner. If you change stoves you'll be looking at pulling that 8" and putting in a 6". Might be more cost effective to go with the new stove and 6" liner now... sell the 8" stove.