chimney relining quote

[Byron]

I recently got a quote for a full relining of my masonry chimney. My chimney is about 25 feet high and (unfortunately) on an outside-facing wall; in fact, 15+ feet of the chimney is "open" on all four sides, meaning it protrudes through the roof for that distance with no interior wall to help insulate. The sweep I'm planning to hire (good reputation and best price) quoted me $1,725 for the job and wrote the following in the work proposal: "install a 6 inch 316 TI stainless steel liner for a direct hook to a woodstove. Lifetime warranty. All materials to meet U. L. codes. Liner is made of a 316 TI alloy. Will concrete top 12 inches of chimney to hold liner to prevent moisture from seeping in chimney. Total length will be lined with stainless steel 316 TI alloy. Will install top plate, top clamps, stainless steel tee."

I spoke with the sweep to clarify a few things, including that he will insulate the liner and that he will install a tee with a cleanout. He is not planning to use a metal plate to seal the place where the damper will be removed, and will instead stick insulation there. (I'm going to fabricate and install my own plate.) He also said something about possibly having to remove a course of bricks to get the liner through the damper area.

All of this said, does this all sound about right to you experts out there? I know there are those who will recommend doing the work myself; however, my chimney is anything but easy to access and there's no way I'm going to the top of the chimney to do the job. The other quote I got was for about $1,000 more for basically the same job. Thanks!

 

[pinewoodburner]

YOur quote needs to say that he will insulate the 6" liner the entire lenght.
THe cost of a liner kit is less than $500, add $300 to insulate. That should cover almost everthing. If you do it yourself, rent a 35' lift at a rental place, less than $200. For $1000 or less, you an do it your self if you want. If you want to pay someone, know the cost of the materials and then what do you feel is a good cost for their expertise and the risk they take. A tall chimney that is hard to reac and is tall, I would pay someone a good bit of money to line it.
Do alot of research on how itt should be done correctly and to code, and don't skimp on the insulation, unless your chimney can pass inspection.

 

[Byron]

Thanks for the feedback. I hadn't thought about renting a cherry picker, but I guess this is something I should look into. I'd like to do the job myself, but am definitely not going to climb a ladder -- actually, in my case it ladders -- to the top of the chimney.

That said, I've drafted a letter to send with the signed proposal -- assuming I actually put it in the mail -- that references myconversation with the sweep in which the sweep said he would insulate the liner. While the verbage won't be in the actual "contract," I'm stating in the letter that he should consider the signed proposal void and destroy the down payment check if he does not agree to insulate the liner and install the tee and cleanout.

Thanks again for the feedback!

 

[jtp10181]

I hope he plans on putting kaowool (or some other fiber ceramic) insulation in the damper area. You cannot put fiberglass insulation around a wood liner.

 

[Byron]

I believe he's planning to use fiberglass insulation in the damper area. Why can't you use it? Is it a code thing? It's not flammable.

 

[jtp10181]

It might not start on fire, but its also not a listed non-combustible. The manuals we use specifically state NOT to use fiberglass insulation. I have read from many many people on here the same thing.

 

[begreen]

It has a low melting point if I remember right. Much lower than the potential of the liner. Put in a proper block off plate insulated with kaowool and be done with it.

 

[Byron]

I was looking over my notes from my conversation with the sweep and I believe he mentioned using 1-4-inch sheep wool wrap to insulate the liner. I looked up a sheep wool product produced by Black Mountain Insulation Ltd. (I have no idea if this is the particular product he is planning to use). Have you ever heard of sheep wool (which is apparently "fire retardant") being used in a liner installation? Is this OK?

I'm strongly considering ordering a Forever Flex kit (plus liner) and doing the installation myself. I found a 6" liner online for $540, with an insulation wrap kit for an additional $295. I looked into renting a lift (again, thanks for the idea) and found it will cost $190 a day for a 34' lift I can pull behind a vehicle to the work site. It looks like I'll save $700 in labor, but this really is one of those things I wouldn't mind paying for, if I knew it would be done properly. I wonder if the sweep would be willing to perform the labor, if I ordered the liner (as opposed to using his) and wrap?

I just don't want to get screwed by a poor job on this. Money is tight for us and we had a very bad experience with the last person we hired to do work on our house; in fact, that guy still owes us money.

 

[begreen]

I never heard of the product until you mentioned it. Sounds baaaad for liner insulation. Ask the installer if the product is UL 1777 certified. Somehow I don't think so.

 

[webbie]

I doubt most sweeps will work with your materials. DIY can save money, but then again you are on your own.

I would not use the "verbal" insulation as an indication of anything, and this insulation is surely not lambs wool. I have also never heard of using concrete on the top foot of the chimney....but, then again, all of us are talking from afar.

 

[Byron]

Thanks for the feedback. I'm still leaning toward doing the install myself, with the help of a cherry picker. I do have another question: when I remove the damper plate, is it also OK to remove the damper frame? I ask because I won't have enough room to get the liner through the damper area unless I can remove the frame, too.

 

[BrotherBart]

A common practice, what I did, is to cut a piece out of the back, front or both of the frame to allow the liner to go through. The caveat is that this makes it where it can't ever be used as an open fireplace again. well, without the addition of a chimney top flue damper that is. Another approach is the use of a piece of ovalized flex for the last few feet through the frame.

Most localities require that you put a tag on the fireplace warning of this when you make the modification to the damper frame.

 

[Jags]

He also said something about possibly having to remove a course of bricks to get the liner through the damper area.

I'm not totally sure what this was in reference to, but I would check into it. If you gotta start knocking out bricks, this may turn into a real treat.

 

[Byron]

I spent time this evening inspecting the damper and see now why the sweep is talking about removing bricks. Things are tight the damper area. Even with the damper plate removed, there will be, at best, only 5" to work with. What options do I have here, other than removing bricks?

Another thought is to save a bunch of money and install a Flexline kit. The only thing is, much of my chimney is outside-facing on all for sides. The sweep said he thinks my tile liner is 7"x11". Is the Flexline even an option, given my "outside" chimney and/or the 4.5"-5" of space in the damper area? Heck, can I get a 6" liner wrapped in 1/2" of insulation down my chimney? Argh!

Thanks!

 

[jtp10181]

this insulation is surely not lambs wool.

Black Mountain sheep wool
insulation provides a high performance
and truly sustainable solution to
both consumption of energy and the
effects of climate change. Wool is not
only a better insulator but it actual
generates heat when it absorbs
moisture.

Our natural wool insulation is
designed to be used in new and
existing buildings. It’s ideal for lofts,
rafter, internal wall and
inter-floor use.

http://www.blackmountaininsulation.com/

Sounds very bad 10 use for a liner insulation. Definitely not approved to make the liner UL 1777 listed. For many liners you have to use the same "brand" of insulation kit to get the UL 1777 listing because that's the way it is tested.

 

[BrotherBart]

I have two 7 X 11 inside dimension exterior chimneys and have 5.5 inch flex liners in both of them uninsulated and the draft is great in both of them. Both completley exterior and I am probably fifty or sixty miles east of you. I had the same problem on the damper and I cut the back out of the damper frame and ended up with a little over six inches of space to come through. If you don't cut the frame out then you are going to have to buy a rather expensive five foot or so piece of oval to round flex to get through the frame and attach it to the round liner and lower it down.

And I don't know any way that you are going to get an insulation wrapped liner down that chimney.

 

[jtp10181]

And I don't know any way that you are going to get an insulation wrapped liner down that chimney.

6" Rigid Oval DuraLiner. It is 4-4/3" OD I think and it is double wall insulation wrapped. We have used it on a few 8x12 OD (which are a little less than 7x11 ID) flues without problems.

 

[BrotherBart]

And I don't know any way that you are going to get an insulation wrapped liner down that chimney.

6" Rigid Oval DuraLiner. It is 4-4/3" OD I think and it is double wall insulation wrapped. We have used it on a few 8x12 OD (which are a little less than 7x11 ID) flues without problems.

Sounds like a possibility. An expensive one but a possibility.

 

[elmoleaf]

Do not "concrete" the last 12 inches to keep out moisture. Concrete will not keep out moisture....over time, it'll shrink away from around the liner.
Just use the correct top flashing/cap assembly.

 

[Byron]

Yeah, I'm not sure what the deal is with the sweep concreting the top foot of the chimney. It certainly sounds like this is anything but standard practice. If I do the install myself, I'll install a proper-fitting cap.

 

[Byron]

OK, so I have looked into using 6” Rigid Oval DuraLiner and I definitely think this will work. But I also measured the inside of my clay liner and know the inside measurement is at least 8" x 8". I'm assuming this gives me the space needed to get an insulated 6" Forever Flex liner down to the damper. Someone mentioned using a piece of oval to round flex to get through the damper area; what type of oval-to-round flex would be best to connect to the 6" Forever Flex liner? Again, keep in mind I have 5" or less in my damper area. Would something like this http://www.dynamitebuys.com/store/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=1262 work? Would I be able to connect the oval flex directly to the oval "thimble" on my Hearthstone Homestead, or would I need to connect it to a T with a cleanout like this http://www.dynamitebuys.com/store/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=1252 ?

Thanks!

 

[ProPain]

I had a sales guy today tell me that in lower Michigan they NEVER put in liners. What do you guys think?

 

[Byron]

OK, so I have looked into using 6” Rigid Oval DuraLiner and I definitely think this will work. But I also measured the inside of my clay liner and know the inside measurement is at least 8” x 8”. I’m assuming this gives me the space needed to get an insulated 6” Forever Flex liner down to the damper. Someone mentioned using a piece of oval to round flex to get through the damper area; what type of oval-to-round flex would be best to connect to the 6” Forever Flex liner? Again, keep in mind I have 5” or less in my damper area. Would something like this http://www.dynamitebuys.com/store/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=1262 work? Would I be able to connect the oval flex directly to the oval “thimble” on my Hearthstone Homestead, or would I need to connect it to a T with a cleanout like this http://www.dynamitebuys.com/store/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=1252 ?

Thanks!

 

[Byron]

While I'm still leaning toward installing a liner myself, I did speak with the sweep again today. He said his plan is to use a thermal wrap up to the terra-cotta lining, then use a "thermal mix" the rest of the way up. He said this thermal mix will be a mixture of an insulative material and some form of concrete. The top 12 inches of the chimney, he said, will be concrete (for the purpose of holding the liner in place). I told the guy I'm thinking of doing my own install and that I would give him a call back tonight to let him know whether or not I want to hire him. Does what the sweep is talking about doing sound normal? (I realize I've already received input regarding the concrete in the top 12 inches.) Thanks

 

[jtp10181]

OK for the damper area you can you either just cut the whole damper out (best IMO) or you can manuall ovalize the last section of liner then round out the end after its past the damper so you can hook it to the insert.

Ok the sweep... he does not seem like he has put any research into what he does. You do not need any insulation on the liner in the smoke chamber area, so wrapping the liner before the the tiles start is pointless (unless the tiles start half way up the chimney). He is I hope planning on using Thermix which is an actual approved product for insulation chimney liners. Normally you would install a metal block off plate in the damper area to keep the thermix from coming all the way down. Then you fill the rest of the whole chimney up. To do this properly you should have spacers on the liner to keep it centered all the way down, otherwise if it is touching the masonry anywhere it kind of defeats the purpose of the insulation. As for the concrete at the top, sounds sensless to me. If you want to keep the liner in place use a proper top plate and cap, follow the directions and seal the top plate to the clay tiles on the top, this will keep the liner from moving wont it? Unless I'm missing something here? I have never heard of anyone putting concrete at the top to hold the liner in place.

Thermix: http://www.hartshearth.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=3577