Crown Royal Gasifier vs Multi-Pass

[Goshenboy123]

Hello all,

I have been researching brands of outdoor boilers and settled on Crown Royal. Their quality, as well as the design, looks very robust and well built. Everything looks very heavy duty from all the brochures and videos on youtube.

My question is, what is everyone's opinion on whether to go with a gasifier or the multi-pass. I understand that the gasifier will be more efficient, but realistically by how much? Is the efficiency worth the extra price?

I am looking forward to hearing the pros and cons of each and seeing everyone's set up.

This is my first post here on the Hearth, excited to hear what everyone says. Thanks for the help!

 

[andym]

Hello all,

I have been researching brands of outdoor boilers and settled on Crown Royal. Their quality, as well as the design, looks very robust and well built. Everything looks very heavy duty from all the brochures and videos on youtube.

My question is, what is everyone's opinion on whether to go with a gasifier or the multi-pass. I understand that the gasifier will be more efficient, but realistically by how much? Is the efficiency worth the extra price?

I am looking forward to hearing the pros and cons of each and seeing everyone's set up.

This is my first post here on the Hearth, excited to hear what everyone says. Thanks for the help!

If it was me I would go with the gasifier I think. I looked at the Heatmaster G series, CB ClassicEdge, and crown royal. Each brand has its own advantages, but all three are very good. Personally I am going the cheaper route of the indoor wood furnace, although I had first planned on an outdoor boiler.

Some things that may help your decision:
Where are you getting your wood? Is there any $$ advantage to using less? (I enjoy cutting and get all I want free, but that is not everyone's situation).

The gasifiers MUST HAVE dry wood. Like 20% or less. The multi-pass will be a little more forgiving here.

The multi-pass can also burn coal I think.

How much price difference are we lookin at? 2k?

 

[andym]

On the efficiency question: the EPA rates all the outdoor gasifiers around 67-73% efficiency (if I remember right). I'm assuming that is recovered heat, not delivered. In other words: you may also need to factor in loss from the unit itself as well as underground. I would estimate the multipass around 50-60? I'm no expert tho. Curious what others may say.

Don't underestimate the significance of even 10% efficiency difference. That means every 10 years you'll save an entire seasons firewood. 20% = every 5 years. After 5 years feeding a less efficient unit I would be asking myself: what exactly did I do with the 2,000 I saved anyway?

 

[E Yoder]

Keep in mind the multipass units are technically coal only units in the US if you're concerned about the EPA regs.
In my experience with Heatmaster the gasser will burn at least a third less wood. I've burned up to 30% moisture wood and it performs well, above that it's tough to get a good reburn. Less than 20% is definitely ideal.
The May 15 deadline is coming up soon. All 2015 rated models have to be sold by then. Maybe the dealer would be willing to make a deal?

 

[Goshenboy123]

First off, thank you for your replies!

The efficiency of the gasifier sounds nice, and is defiantly crazy to hear how much wood one could save. I cut and split my own wood from my property, so realistically there would be no money savings but definitely nice to save wood.

After everything I've heard so far, it sounds like the gasifier is the way to go. How is the maintenance difference for the two?

 

[hobbyheater]

We have been heating our home domestic hot water with wood since the early 80s.

This boiler my kids called the pig as it burned 22 cords (4x4x8) in one year!

Next we bought a Tasso like the one pictured below. It was a triple pass downdrafter. It burned 16 cords a year and 10 cords a year when connected to 1,290 gallons of storage.

We bought the Jetstream in 1984 and connected it to storage. It averaged 4 cords a year over a 36 year period! When I was younger, I thought nothing of going out, bucking and splitting 5 cords of wood in one afternoon to load our 5 ton flatdeck. Now that I'm in my 70s with good saw and a good splitter, I really apreciate only having to collect 3 1/2 to 4 1/2 cords a year. Think to the future when you buy your boiler and the amount of wood it's going to burn!

The Woodsplitter makes it fun but I am glad it is only 4 cords a year.

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[andym]

[QUOTE="Goshenboy123, post:
How is the maintenance difference for the two?
[/QUOTE]
I don't have first hand experience, but I know the gasifiers take just a bit more effort to operate. You should be able to look up some videos on YouTube about the end of season maintenance.

 

[coolidge]

Gassers have a little learning curve to them. Figure out how to load for 12 hours. They don’t need to be stuffed full.

 

[Medic21]

I have a 7300MP and live it. This was my first season with a boiler. I can attest to the quality of the unit.

I actually went with it for the coal option. It is a beast when burning coal but, it needs to have a fairly large load on it to stay burning.

It was said up higher that you have to have wood under 20% to burn a gasser. This is not true but, you loose a lot of efficiency and have too split small. Not ideal but, I know people that have burned up to 40% moisture without any problems.

So, differences between the two. Multi pass is less work processing wood. Cut to 30” and split to 8-10 inch splits. Will burn the green tree you cut down today in a pinch. Very easy learning curve and very little in season maintenance.

Gasser will have you cutting 20” or less and 6” splits at a max size to run right. They have a very specific loading, cant just throw in wood. Can be more difficult to light. Despite all that it is very clean, burns a lot less wood. I went through 9-10 cords with a very mild winter.

very important, have at least three years of wood cut, split, and stacked. My biggest mistake was not having enough seasoned wood this year from the start. I never ran out but I’m burning 1 year seasoned oak right now. Find a good dealer. Ask questions about service and repair. There are too many dealers that just want to sell andhave know knowledge or ability to service the units. If you have any specific questions feel free to ask.

 

[brenndatomu]

Not ideal but, I know people that have burned up to 40% moisture without any problems.

Man, that's rough...if you throw in 100 lbs. of wood, at 40% MC, that's almost 5 gallons of water included!
Bet that "burns" nice!
Interesting "dry" test here...

Dry firewood - How to Check Whether Your Firewood Is Dry

Simple methods will enable you to check whether your firewood is dry. For the sake of the environment you should always use dry firewood.

www.tips.adurofire.com

 

[E Yoder]

I absolutely agree on finding a good dealer who will be honest with you.

 

[Medic21]

Man, that's rough...if you throw in 100 lbs. of wood, at 40% MC, that's almost 5 gallons of water included!
Bet that "burns" nice!
Interesting "dry" test here...

Dry firewood - How to Check Whether Your Firewood Is Dry

Simple methods will enable you to check whether your firewood is dry. For the sake of the environment you should always use dry firewood.

www.tips.adurofire.com

From what I’ve seen on Facebook and other places. When done it makes a hell of a mess of the heat exchanger. Didn’t say I’d recommend it.

 

[hedge wood]

I have been heating with wood since the mid 80's and sold firewood for about 20 of the 35 years that I have burned wood. Twenty five years with stoves and the last 10 with a Garn boiler. I can't speak on the quality of the crown royal boilers. I have never ran a none gasifier boiler but I do believe you will get the most BTU's out of your wood with one. My Garn will burn fairly wet wood but the energy it takes to get it to burn is not good. The main key to burning wood for heat is to have good solid dry wood. That will keep the amount of wood you burn in check.

 

[Goshenboy123]

Definitely leaning towards the gasifier unit.

Can someone explain the 2020 EPA regulation to me? I just looked on their website for the OWB that complies with this and there are very few. With this regulation, does it mean that I would not be able to pick up a wood boiler if it doesn't meet these specs?

I understand that the MP unit is considered a coal unit and exempt from the EPA emissions, but if I wanted a Gassifier which is considered a wood unit, would I not be able to purchase it if it doesn't meet the 2020 regs?

 

[brenndatomu]

Not after May 15

 

[Medic21]

Woodstove Database | Burnwise | US EPA

The Crown Royal E series and Heatmaster G series both make the 2020 list. Looks like Central Boiler finally made the list.

The Multi Pass is coal or wood. The difference is commercial applications, over 2500 sq ft, are exempt also. Mine is hooked to my shop as commercial use and incidentally may be hooked to the house too. The other side is Indiana actually has wording to ban coal burning as a whole on hydronic heaters so you have to look hard at the local and state laws. A lot of areas have enacted stricter laws. Some require a permit to install and operate. Make sure you research all that.

How many square feet are you heating? Domestic hot water?

 

[Goshenboy123]

I am heating 2300sq ft. The home is insulated fairly well, but nothing crazy. Winter temps average 20*F, with the max low of around -10* F. I plan on heating domestic hot water. Was doing some research, and was looking between the 7200e and 7300e, not sure which.

 

[salecker]

You need to pair a gasifier with storage to achieve the best possible recovery of BTU's with the least amount of maintenance.
If you aren't running a boiler wide open you are losing efficiency,and you will be cleaning it more to archive and maintain it's efficiency.

 

[Medic21]

You need to pair a gasifier with storage to achieve the best possible recovery of BTU's with the least amount of maintenance.
If you aren't running a boiler wide open you are losing efficiency,and you will be cleaning it more to archive and maintain it's efficiency.

These do not use storage like your Garns and the such. They run wide open or off. These are completely different.

 

[Medic21]

I am heating 2300sq ft. The home is insulated fairly well, but nothing crazy. Winter temps average 20*F, with the max low of around -10* F. I plan on heating domestic hot water. Was doing some research, and was looking between the 7200e and 7300e, not sure which.

7200 will be plenty if you don’t have future plans to expand. Do not skimp on the lines. Closed cell foam only, no wrap crap.

 

[Goshenboy123]

Thanks for the reply. I was definitely looking at Urecon/Logstor 1 1/4 piping. Did a ton or research on the btu capacity of true 1 inch, and to push around 120,000 BTU (max calculated load) at a delta t of 20° I would have to move a little more than 12gpm. This is way out of 1 inch territory and I would have a crazy high head even trying to put that much flow through that size pipe. For an 1 1/4 pipe 12gpm would be no problem as I would have much lower head and lower water velocities.

After reading up on this forum, definitely see that the Logstor is a top notch product

 

[Medic21]

Thanks for the reply. I was definitely looking at Urecon/Logstor 1 1/4 piping. Did a ton or research on the btu capacity of true 1 inch, and to push around 120,000 BTU (max calculated load) at a delta t of 20° I would have to move a little more than 12gpm. This is way out of 1 inch territory and I would have a crazy high head even trying to put that much flow through that size pipe. For an 1 1/4 pipe 12gpm would be no problem as I would have much lower head and lower water velocities.

After reading up on this forum, definitely see that the Logstor is a top notch product

How many BTU is your furnace? If it’s 120,000btu then it’s actual output is 90,000btu. I am running 60k exchanger, 50k unit heater, 20 plate dhw off of 1 1/4 ID pipe with a 26-99 main pump on low and three 15-58 pumps on low. Delta t is 20 degrees if everything is calling for heat. The max you will get out of the 1 1/4 pipe your talking about is about 10gpm if it’s 50’ each way. Realistically you can get what you need out of 1” logstor and a 15-58 pump on high.

I did a primary/secondary loop in order to get what I need but if all you are heating is a dhw and water to air coil that will be plenty in series. If your on Facebook look for Hydronic Wood Heating and put in a request to join. Ask Darin about sizing for the line and pump. He’s a genius and does it everyday. Save you a lot of money on pipe.

 

[E Yoder]

Woodstove Database | Burnwise | US EPA

The Crown Royal E series and Heatmaster G series both make the 2020 list. Looks like Central Boiler finally made the list.

The Multi Pass is coal or wood. The difference is commercial applications, over 2500 sq ft, are exempt also. Mine is hooked to my shop as commercial use and incidentally may be hooked to the house too. The other side is Indiana actually has wording to ban coal burning as a whole on hydronic heaters so you have to look hard at the local and state laws. A lot of areas have enacted stricter laws. Some require a permit to install and operate. Make sure you research all that.

How many square feet are you heating? Domestic hot water?

Where are they on the 2020 list? I'm not seeing them. HeatMaster has 2020 compliant models coming but the current G series isn't legal for residential after May 15. Is Crown bringing on new units this spring?
From my reading of the NSPS, the definition of a commercial building is what it is used for, not sq ft. If a house is attached to the boiler then a commercial exemption doesn't apply.
I know there's been no enforcement by the EPA, so it's somewhat irrelevant, I'm just discussing for fun.

 

[Medic21]

Where are they on the 2020 list? I'm not seeing them. HeatMaster has 2020 compliant models coming but the current G series isn't legal for residential after May 15. Is Crown bringing on new units this spring?
From my reading of the NSPS, the definition of a commercial building is what it is used for, not sq ft. If a house is attached to the boiler then a commercial exemption doesn't apply.
I know there's been no enforcement by the EPA, so it's somewhat irrelevant, I'm just discussing for fun.

Listed under Greentech Manufacturing.

 

[Goshenboy123]

Looking at the EPA website, I am not seeing Crown Royal/ Greentech Manufacturing being 2020 compliant. I have a screenshot attached below of all the 2020 Approved Wood Boilers.

Regarding my plumbing situation, the boiler would be 100 feet away from my house in one direction, so a total loop of 200'. On top of this, I was going to use an 80 Plate exchanger to connect the boiler to my existing oil boiler. Regarding my oil burner output, it is rated at 140,000 BTU with an efficiency rating of 85%, so that's how I got my 120,000 BTU rating.

I don't have a Facebook, but thank you for that idea. Never realized how much help there was out there for wood heating.