Got into some frozen locust that was stacked many years ago in 20 ft logs. Bark is long gone and wood is hard and solid. It’s been cold here this week and when I started cutting it into 18” lengths it was like cutting steel. I had just sharpened the Stihl RM yellow chain and it was throwing nice chips in the spalted maple. But almost as soon as I started in the locust it dulled the chain to just throwing dust and scorching the wood. Wood was clean not dirty at all. This locust was very hard and it is always harder on the chain but the frozen stuff was way to tough. Similar but not as bad a deal with some 18-20” diameter red oak that was partially frozen. Cutting with a Stihl 029 super with 18” bar and stihl RM yellow chain (semi chisel). What do you guys do to cut frozen hard wood?
Cutting frozen Locust and Oak?
- Thread starter bigealta
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Have never had any problems cutting wood that is frozen. I wouldn't think there would be much moisture left in the wood to freeze anyway. I have cut alot of hedge in the dead of winter both green and dead and never had any problems.
Woodsplitter67
Minister of Fire
I agree with above.. I was cutting this weekend.. I cut alot of wood some being over 24inches.. ran right through it..
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Hmm, well both the chains i used are (were) sharp but pretty well worn, i think it's possible i overheated them and they lost their temper and just can't hold an edge anymore. Have a new oregon L74 control cut full chisel chain ordered. Will see if that will work better. Thanks for your guy's comments.
The dead, very dry, black locust is the culprit. This wood will dull chains just as quick mid summer.
Related question......if no one sees I will start a new thread. Do you need to retune your saw in the really cold weather. In the winter I typically drain the other saws and just use my Husky. My old 51 was being a pain. Brought it in, cleaned plug and readjusted the carb and runs ok......in the garage now. I am wondering if it is just the 0 degree weather.
Sean McGillicuddy
Minister of Fire
yeah the rakers are, if anything, a bit to tall. The chips in the softer wood were good size but could have been a bit bigger. Yes the locust was rock hard. Split well though.
Also i think the 30 degree tooth angle is just to much for the locust.
The rakers should be high for hardwoods and lower for softwoods. In the softwood the tooth cuts like butter. it is able to slice a bigger chip.
Hardwood is tougher to slice so a smaller chip is desired for chain speed. A lower raker in hardwood causes the chain to become "grabby" and will pull the saw into the cut while bogging down the saw.
This is the issue. It's like trying to cut through cement with a wood chain.
There are carbide tipped tooth chains for dirty woods and cases like the locust you have. Very dry locust is extremely hard. Why it burns like coal. The trouble with carbide chain is it's expensive, usually special order, and requires a diamond dressed grinding wheel to sharpen.
Same here with tooth angle. The 30* is preferred for softer woods while a 25* angle is better for hardwoods.
Yes that's what i was saying, that i don't think the rakers are a problem because they are high for smaller chips and harder wood. I think the chains have been overheated and can't hold an edge anymore. And yes i've cut a lot of locust before, but mostly green, and it is always harder than other species but this super dry stuff is rock hard as you describe. I've heard about those carbide chains, but i don't see enough of this rock hard wood to make it worth the expense and special sharpening set up.
If i run into more of this dry locust, i'de probably go with a semichisel 25 degree chain and maybe even reprofile it to 22 or even 20 degrees. Thanks
As I stated in an earlier reply I have cut alot of hedge and a good share of it has been standing dead and have cut old hedge posts also. I leave my chain angles the same for all my cutting and don't have any problems. While I have not cut alot of black locust, what I have cut did not seem to be anything out of the ordinary. I can see if it has been laying on the ground with the kind of bark it has it could have alot of dirt in it.
I have a new chain on the way, pretty sure it's my chains that are the problem. I've never cut hedge. I think there is 1 more locust piece left. I'll shoot a short video to show if it fights the new chain too. This locust was off the ground on top of other logs and bark was long gone, no dirt.
You would really have to have a bad chain to take the temper out with it on a saw,the log would be on fire to do that.
A bad operator on a grinder can take the temper out of the edge of the tooth but not the complete tooth
Yeah 1 tooth previously broken off, teeth were sharp, always had filed, no grinder, chain well worn but not completely worn out. This did scorch burn marks in the locust, i pushed hard, way too hard i know, 2 new chains on the way and they should tell the story. Wish i took some pics, next time i'll be sure to.
CincyBurner
Minister of Fire
I've never had issue with cutting frozen wood (concrete yes 
). It sounds like a depth gauge (raker) issue.
Cutting hedge or locust is slower going than cutting soft woods like linden or white pine but still with sharp cutters & properly set raker chain should still easily cut (hardened steel is much harder and tougher than wood).
Check sawdust. If chain sharp and rakers set properly the chain should be producing ribbons, or good flakes not dust, and definitely no burn marks on wood.
It doesn't take much to rock a chain - a short dip into soil or a stone, or cutting a trunk flare with bits of grit in bark, and it's time to resharpen or change out to new chain.
I sharpen and use a chain until teeth are nubs (minimum length marked on Stihl chain tooth). I don't notice much difference in performance between new and an almost spent chain if chain sharpened properly.
). It sounds like a depth gauge (raker) issue.Cutting hedge or locust is slower going than cutting soft woods like linden or white pine but still with sharp cutters & properly set raker chain should still easily cut (hardened steel is much harder and tougher than wood).
Check sawdust. If chain sharp and rakers set properly the chain should be producing ribbons, or good flakes not dust, and definitely no burn marks on wood.
It doesn't take much to rock a chain - a short dip into soil or a stone, or cutting a trunk flare with bits of grit in bark, and it's time to resharpen or change out to new chain.
- Check/ measure the height of rakers. File down if too high.
- Check shape of the cutter. Chains previously sharpened with a grinder can have a more of a vertical shape. You're looking for a hooked undercut shape. The sharpener can ride up the tooth.
I sharpen and use a chain until teeth are nubs (minimum length marked on Stihl chain tooth). I don't notice much difference in performance between new and an almost spent chain if chain sharpened properly.
I'm a pretty particular hand filer and use an old school guide to make sure i'm dead on the 30 angle and 0 up/down angle. Saw gets locked in bench vise for stability when sharpening. I have not cut out the gullets like buckin billy ray, but had sharpened that chain each day before cutting and each day it started sharp throwing oak and spalted maple chips, but as soon as it hit the locust it dulled to throwing dust, Dulled in like 30 seconds.I've never had issue with cutting frozen wood (concrete yes
Cutting hedge or locust is slower going than cutting soft woods like linden or white pine but still with sharp cutters & properly set raker chain should still easily cut (hardened steel is much harder and tougher than wood).
Check sawdust. If chain sharp and rakers set properly the chain should be producing ribbons, or good flakes not dust, and definitely no burn marks on wood.
It doesn't take much to rock a chain - a short dip into soil or a stone, or cutting a trunk flare with bits of grit in bark, and it's time to resharpen or change out to new chain.
Try the Pferd (Stihl) two-in-one file. It's not perfect but does a very good job and gets rakers trimmed down and maintains cutter shape as needed as you sharpen chain.
- Check/ measure the height of rakers. File down if too high.
- Check shape of the cutter. Chains previously sharpened with a grinder can have a more of a vertical shape. You're looking for a hooked undercut shape. The sharpener can ride up the tooth.
I sharpen and use a chain until teeth are nubs (minimum length marked on Stihl chain tooth). I don't notice much difference in performance between new and an almost spent chain if chain sharpened properly.
Sharpened again and it did go thru the oak but not super fast, it threw decent chips. Rakers are on or very close to spec when using the flat file depth gauge. if anything they are a touch high for the harder wood.
Sawset
Minister of Fire
Somewhere I remember hearing that locust has a higher percentage of silica. To me it wears chains more than the other hardwoods. I did have some locust that had been down 6yrs or so. Had the same experience - took the edge off to the point where I was looking around at everything - the saw, engine, air filter, dirt maybe on the wood - nope, none of that, just a sharp chain going dull halfway through the cut. Just kept sharpening to finally get those logs cut. They weren't frozen, just hard as a rock.
Found this on the forestry forum.
"Up here in northern Manitoba we cut alot of frozen timber 6 mths of the yr. When I was a faller doing cut and skid back in the day some months it was 40 below every day for a month, so we just had to keep working. Most times it was around Christmas time so the dollar had to be made.
For a sawchain to cut properly in frozen wood the top plate angle on the cutters has to be at around 20 degrees. [20 for chisel, 25 for semi-chisel]. File with your file handle dropped 10 degrees to take some of the hook out of the cutters side plate. Depth gauges slightly higher then standard settings.
If you go way back in history bow saw and crosscut saw settings were very similar , winter wood settings, summer wood settings.
Willard."
And then this too
'Frozen wood has nothing to do with your chain getting dull, it's dirt or you have burned the cutter's, took the temper out. Ive had men do this with a new chain, they hit dirt and kept forcing the saw, burned the chain up."
"Up here in northern Manitoba we cut alot of frozen timber 6 mths of the yr. When I was a faller doing cut and skid back in the day some months it was 40 below every day for a month, so we just had to keep working. Most times it was around Christmas time so the dollar had to be made.
For a sawchain to cut properly in frozen wood the top plate angle on the cutters has to be at around 20 degrees. [20 for chisel, 25 for semi-chisel]. File with your file handle dropped 10 degrees to take some of the hook out of the cutters side plate. Depth gauges slightly higher then standard settings.
If you go way back in history bow saw and crosscut saw settings were very similar , winter wood settings, summer wood settings.
Willard."
And then this too
'Frozen wood has nothing to do with your chain getting dull, it's dirt or you have burned the cutter's, took the temper out. Ive had men do this with a new chain, they hit dirt and kept forcing the saw, burned the chain up."
CincyBurner
Minister of Fire
I had that happen cutting a standing dead. Started throwing sparks and dulled the chain. I got it down and took it out in the woods. I called it early petrification.
Yeah I get petrified oak here sometimes, mostly branches just off the ground, bark long gone and very heavy for being so well seasoned. Hard as a rock, but never had problems cutting the oak. Just the locust.
Well got a new chain yesterday so we will see what’s up when this snow melts and I can get back in there.
I just came across this on Arborsite.
"If the trees are by a gravel road, there will be years of embedded grit which will make short work of a chain, or, as Ian said, hitting the dirt when bucking the log."
These locust logs are about 6-8 ft from a dirt driveway and on the edge of a farm, so lots of dust over the years i'm sure. Anyway i got a new chain and will get in there soon, this warm up is melting the snow quickly.
"If the trees are by a gravel road, there will be years of embedded grit which will make short work of a chain, or, as Ian said, hitting the dirt when bucking the log."
These locust logs are about 6-8 ft from a dirt driveway and on the edge of a farm, so lots of dust over the years i'm sure. Anyway i got a new chain and will get in there soon, this warm up is melting the snow quickly.
CincyBurner
Minister of Fire
Yes, that's the most likely answer.
When I've cut and cleared logs from downed trees along busy roads at night you can see the sparks fly !
Sawmills will debark logs prior to having their valuable blades make contact with wood. Even portable bandsaw mills employ a small rotary carbide tipped debarker that protects sawmill blades from damage by clearing a narrow path (~¼” wide) in front of the advancing blade.
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