Do any dealers sell truly seasoned wood?

[branchburner]

As in ready to burn, low enough MC to keep an EPA stove happy, upon delivery? I got some free pine from a woodguy today (he custom-cut it to length for me!) and we had a long discussion on "seasoned" hardwood. He said the market is so price-sensitive that if he went to the effort to get his wood all really dry and what most of us might call "perfect" and then priced accordingly, nobody would buy. He was very honest and said he tells customers it is as "seasoned" as his competition, in what seems to be the standard meaning these days: not really seasoned. It's not green, but may have been only recently split or piled uncovered in the shade, etc.

He says (and I agree) there are just too many people with older stoves who don't care, or with newer stoves who don't know any better. Since there is no defined standard for seasoned, dealers tend toward the lowest common denominator and customers almost seem to expect it. Is mediocrity the gold standard in this business?

Maybe I'm wrong, but there seem to be a lot of posters on the forums, who maybe put in their stove late fall, who just can't find good wood to burn now. I tell friends who buy wood they have to do what we who cut it do: get a year ahead of the game and season it yourself. Of course, even having learned that lesson, it looks like I'm short for the winter!

 

[stee6043]

I think it comes down to a matter of simple economics. In order to sell "really" seasoned wood a wood seller would need twice as much space available to process "next years" wood. He'd also have to be able to afford to have that one year (or more) delay between when he invested in processing the wood and when he would actually get the proceeds from selling the wood.

Besides...shouldn't everyone burn at LEAST one year of green wood to really learn why seasoned wood is important? ha. I know I did...maybe not a whole year...but close enough...

 

[blades]

I have one of my customers who operates a landscape service and sells firewood. All the wood he sells is kiln dried before being sold. His pricing is in line with everyone else in the area. 90% of the wood sold as " seasoned" around here is still pretty high in the moisture content. Cut and split during the winter sold in the fall. I buy a face cord here and there just to keep tabs on who is selling what ect. ( I have about 15 cord stacked at present,9 ready for this winter) as I get asked about who has what quite regularly. Had one guy try to deliver face cord of "mixed hardwood" turned out to be 90% Box Elder (I do not consider Box Elder a hardwood, but to each his own). It was pretty green yet, I politely declined. Yes I had to pull out the mosture meter and bow saw to prove my point.

 

[Hurricane]

Around here most guys are splitting in summer and fall and selling as seasoned. They feel that the logs have seasoned and when split it is ready. Also they split it real small so it does dry quicker. Last winter one guy was splitting wood and loading it for delivery, he would tell some people it was freshly split and others was seasoned. He sold out of his regular supply in Dec and operated the winter in this mode.

Short answer is No.

 

[BrotherBart]

My neighbors buy from a long time dealer right down the road. He processes in early spring and has a football field sized pile about twenty feet high at his place. I have looked at the neighbor's wood deliveries and the wood is about as dry as one could expect but should be stacked and left to dry for another year. I don't see how the dealer could age it any more given that a years sales completely fill up the large area he has for storage. And it is all gone by the end of burning eason. If in a few years I have to buy wood instead of cutting my own I just take it for granted that I am going to have to buy it a year two ahead of time from him.

 

[maplewood]

... I just take it for granted that I am going to have to buy it a year two ahead of time from him.

That's the consensus of all I've read on the forums.
Personally, I've only bought C/S/S once, and it wasn't to length or seasoned - same story we read here all the time. I'm blessed to have the area to process my own firewood - I buy 8' or tree length and am finally learning to have it finished over a year ahead (I'm working on 2012/2013 now).
Hope yours dries out, and happy burning.

 

[firefighterjake]

Around here most guys are splitting in summer and fall and selling as seasoned. They feel that the logs have seasoned and when split it is ready...

From what I can see, that's the same situation here as well . . . wood is cut in the winter and delivered to the dealer and they cut it into rounds and split it in the Summer or Fall and consider it "seasoned." As mentioned by others, the dealers don't really have the space or time to put up wood a year in advance . . . and it seems as though most folks around me are still running a lot of older woodstoves which are not so sensitive to less-than-seasoned wood . . . funny thing though . . . we still seem to respond to an awful lot of chimney fires.

 

[Duetech]

I... Had one guy try to deliver face cord of "mixed hardwood" turned out to be 90% Box Elder (I do not consider Box Elder a hardwood, but to each his own). It was pretty green yet, I politely declined. Yes I had to pull out the mosture meter and bow saw to prove my point.

Unfortunately for us science calls any tree that drops its leaves in the fall a hardwood. So it either befalls us to claim the "good" woods for burning a new name or ask the right questions (like species) before we enter in to a deal. I have taken to calling the "good" woods "dense wood" to help the seller and I get on the same page. Even then I have found some pretty lightweight splits in a pile of "dense" wood.

 

[stejus]

I buy my wood fresh cut (I mean the same day it's cut out of the forest) and season it myself. Why spend the extra money on wood that isn't properly aged. By the time I use the wood it's 18 to 22 months aged. It's dripping wet when I get it and nice and dry when i use it. If you have the space for two years of wood on hand, just do it. If you don't, I suggest buying seasoned wood as soon as you can in the early spring and stack it right away.

This is no lie. I see a new pile of wood (about 30 cord) dumped in a landscape company's yard last week. There's a big sign that is promoting someones "Seasoned Firewood". This stuff was just cut as there are no markings of grey and darkened wood exposed to the rain. Live and learn I guess.

 

[Corey]

Chances seem to run about 99 to 1 it won't be properly seasoned - unless you actually see the pile setting for 1-2 years, I wouldn't believe it.

 

[Redburn]

Buying seasoned wood is a touchy subject I know of a couple stories from friends that where bad were the loads had allot of bugs and dirt and where all wet .
From my experience the guys who sell cut firewood to length are in to make money and that means telling you what you want to hear not all but most and they cut it small because they know that it has to dry fast and very few people use the same guy every year it is what it is when I bought some 2yrs ago I had to keep after the guy to bring it in the spring he said he dosn't start till fall thats when the orders come he wants to sell volume not one here . So buy early as possible is my advise even for next year .

Burn on........

 

[CTburning]

I agree with the 1 in 100 chance the wood might be fully seasoned from a large operation. If you can find someone not in the business and just selling off a couple cords for spending money etc then you might get lucky. Last year I had 3 cords, two maple and 1 red oak split. The maple was seasoned the oak needed another year. After running low on maple I called a couple wood dealers. Mind you this was right after new years in the middle of a very cold winter here in CT. I got two replies for the 6 or so people I contacted. One wanted $240 to drop in off in my driveway. Was cut in October. No thanks. The other guy that I tried to make several appts with, was cutting in the morning and delivering in the afternoon. Stacking included was $200. He went on and on about how well seasoned his wood was. It was in log form for a couple of years. The thing was they were busy. Too busy to answer phones most of the time and too busy for my one cord even though I told the guy that if the wood was good I would buy 2+ cords from him a year and just scrounge the rest.

In my opinion the only way to have dry seasoned wood is to store 2 years worth at your residence. That is one of the pitfalls of wood burning.

 

[stejus]

That is one of the pitfalls of wood burning.

"Pitfall" sounds negative. I think "requirements" fits better. Besides, there's nothing sweeter than looking at your money or labor (your stacked wood) hard at work sitting in the sun. Very rewarding if done right

Every morning I can't help but glance at future heat spread out sun bathing. These piles were stacked green back in late May and will be used in the 2010/2011 burn season. The pile on the far left was scrounge wood piled in Nov 2008.

 

[karri0n]

I saw a dump truck full of firewood at the gas station yesterday from a landscape service. Out of curiosity, I asked him when it was split(specifically, when was it SPLIT). His answer: "Oh, probably like three days ago. It's seasoned and ready to burn right now. It will be fully dry in about a week" He wasn't trying to "sell" me, he truly believed it was ready.

I honestly believe that around 80% of wood burners don't know any better, and for this reason, the suppliers don't either. I had another supplier once tell me that he didn't cut to length or split until he loaded his seasoned wood onto the trailer because if it was c/s it would absorb more moisture.

I'd like to hear from Lee how he sells his wood, and if he splits it two years ahead, or if he calls it seasoned when he sells. I'm certain there must be SOME suppliers that sell actually dry wood, but generally, you will need to dry the stuff yourself.

 

[Backwoods Savage]

As in ready to burn, low enough MC to keep an EPA stove happy, upon delivery? I got some free pine from a woodguy today (he custom-cut it to length for me!) and we had a long discussion on "seasoned" hardwood. He said the market is so price-sensitive that if he went to the effort to get his wood all really dry and what most of us might call "perfect" and then priced accordingly, nobody would buy. He was very honest and said he tells customers it is as "seasoned" as his competition, in what seems to be the standard meaning these days: not really seasoned. It's not green, but may have been only recently split or piled uncovered in the shade, etc.

He says (and I agree) there are just too many people with older stoves who don't care, or with newer stoves who don't know any better. Since there is no defined standard for seasoned, dealers tend toward the lowest common denominator and customers almost seem to expect it. Is mediocrity the gold standard in this business?

Maybe I'm wrong, but there seem to be a lot of posters on the forums, who maybe put in their stove late fall, who just can't find good wood to burn now. I tell friends who buy wood they have to do what we who cut it do: get a year ahead of the game and season it yourself. Of course, even having learned that lesson, it looks like I'm short for the winter!

I do not agree with this man's reasoning at all.

If I were selling firewood as a business I definitely would season my wood the way it should be done. I would also attempt to educate my customers or potential customers. This would have the effect of starting the business slow and adding on slow.....but it also would give many very satisfied customers who would not mind paying a little extra because it would be worth every dollar and more!

That is how I was taught in business and that is how I've always operated. It is the very same thing as going to work for someone. Give them a good day's work for the pay you have agreed to. Never be afraid to give extra or go that extra mile. It always pays dividends and you will just feel so much better yourself after doing it.

I see and hear all the time about doing only what a fellow has to do and nothing more. Why do more than someone else? They don't pay me enough to do more, etc., etc. All that spells out to me is L A Z Y.

 

[branchburner]

I honestly believe that around 80% of wood burners don't know any better, and for this reason, the suppliers don't either.

I think you are right, a lot of dealers aren't as dishonest as we may think. I'm pushing 50, burning since a kid, and I only started to burn truly dry wood last year, after learning on these forums it was required for my EPA stove to function well. Many older stoves are leaky and poorly set up and some folks can't even burn properly seasoned wood, the stove eats it too fast and too hot. Guys in the stove shop say every year folks come in complaining the new stove is no good, and the guys say "show me the wood". It's always the wood.

I was talking to an old-timer who runs a very old stove. For 30 years he's kept 2 years ahead with his wood supply. Almost no smoke from his stack, he says neighbors often ask why he isn't burning. He smiled like he knew a secret none of his friend did. Even when you share the secret, half the people shrug and say "whatever".

 

[wendell]

I guess I'm in the 1%. I bought my stove in February of '08 and had a cord of oak delivered and it burned great. (Mayve it is that Wisconsin thing again ;-) )

I think you have to remember that 99.9% of the people who burn wood aren't on this forum and most don't know any different (see the multitude of "you aren't going to believe what my neighbor does" stories that appear here frequently). And, likewise, there are many (most?) firewood dealers who probably don't know any better either.

Someone earlier made a great point about dealers producing what the market will bear. I think a good analogy is if you made coffee and you knew if you carefully roasted the beans you could make better tasting coffee but you knew that the majority of your customers couldn't taste the difference AND they were only willing to pay what a can of Folgers cost, would you go to the extra trouble?

 

[wendell]

If I were selling firewood as a business I definitely would season my wood the way it should be done. I would also attempt to educate my customers or potential customers. This would have the effect of starting the business slow and adding on slow.....but it also would give many very satisfied customers who would not mind paying a little extra because it would be worth every dollar and more!

That is how I was taught in business and that is how I've always operated. It is the very same thing as going to work for someone. Give them a good day's work for the pay you have agreed to. Never be afraid to give extra or go that extra mile. It always pays dividends and you will just feel so much better yourself after doing it.

Excellent point, Dennis. I was trying to point out in my post why they don't but you are spot on on how it should be done.

 

[branchburner]

If I were selling firewood as a business I definitely would season my wood the way it should be done. I would also attempt to educate my customers or potential customers. This would have the effect of starting the business slow and adding on slow.....but it also would give many very satisfied customers who would not mind paying a little extra because it would be worth every dollar and more!

That's kind of what I said to the guy at the end of the conversation: if you sold really dry wood at a premium, for a few years you'd be the "expensive guy" and business might slip. But once word got out that you were the guy who sold dry wood, there would be a market. And the more new stoves that are sold and the more smoke dragons that are retired, the greater the growth of dry wood knowledge and demand.

That's why I started this thread. Seems like most wood dealers are happy with the status quo.

 

[newstove]

I think you have to remember that 99.9% of the people who burn wood aren't on this forum and most don't know any different (see the multitude of "you aren't going to believe what my neighbor does" stories that appear here frequently). And, likewise, there are many (most?) firewood dealers who probably don't know any better either.

Heh... You aren't going to believe what my neighbor does. ;-)

He has an old smoke dragon. He orders about 9-10 cords of oak/cherry/whatever log length each early spring. He cuts, splits and stacks it all in the back yard (mostly shaded.) He's usually done by mid-March or early April. He then burns it all that coming winter.

But, at least he makes an effort and at least seasons it a few months before he fires up the stove... I see a lot of smoke from his chimney during the burning season. Some days, much worse than others. Although last year wasn't too bad, we'll have to see how this year's wood supply works out for him.

 

[branchburner]

I think you have to remember that 99.9% of the people who burn wood aren't on this forum and most don't know any different.

... if you made coffee and you knew if you carefully roasted the beans you could make better tasting coffee but you knew that the majority of your customers couldn't taste the difference AND they were only willing to pay what a can of Folgers cost, would you go to the extra trouble?

Exactly. Now that 0.1% of us love great coffee, we don't care to go back to Folgers. I expect that percentage must be growing at least slightly. When will the Peets and Starbucks of the wood biz show up?

 

[stejus]

That's why I started this thread. Seems like most wood dealers are happy with the status quo.

Dealers are happy because they are in the business to cut and sell wood. It's a cyclical cycle and when "seasoned wood" supplies are depleted, most will continue to sell unseasoned wood as "seasoned" because there are uneducated buyers in the market.

Two ways to fix the problem. 1. Educate the consumer or 2. Government standards, sort of like "Angus Beef". You can't lable it unless it passed strict standards. I don't think we will ever see this.

Like someone stated earlier, as older stoves are replaced with new EPA stoves, this might change the firewood business over time in terms of selling seasoned wood.

 

[TreePapa]

Most of the less expensive firewood sellers around here are tree services selling what might be called "tree sh*t" wood - whatever they cut down recently - and there are a lot of different ornamental trees around here so it could be anything. Most of 'em will tell you it's seasoned and its mostly green, as all here have said. I did find one guy who had a reasonably good size lot, and his mail woodplie in a big, house-size heap. If you picked from the right part of the heap, you could find "more seasoned" wood. Prolly not fully-seasoned, but more seasoned. I've never had wood delivered.

Some of the more expensive operations have pretty large lots and sell actual hardwood, prolly trucked down from some forest many miles away. I've driven by some of these - large piles of wood that looks nice and silver-grey, not fresh cut, but I've never bought from them, 'cuz I'm too cheap and they're too 'spensive.

My best seasoned wood scores have been free or cheap, from homeowners who've had the wood sitting 'round for a year or more and ain't gonna burn it.

Peace,
- Sequoia

 

[Hurricane]

Most of the people buying firewood around here are people burning in zero clearance fireplaces for aesthetics. The wood is split thin and will prolly burn well in an open fireplace. Most people who burn for heat around here scrounge.
So as a business person you deliver what the majority of the market wants.
Until last year I always split in the spring for that winter and have been burning for 35 years. I just became educated this past winter.

 

[BrotherBart]

Heh... You aren't going to believe what my neighbor does. ;-)

He has an old smoke dragon. He orders about 9-10 cords of oak/cherry/whatever log length each early spring. He cuts, splits and stacks it all in the back yard (mostly shaded.) He's usually done by mid-March or early April. He then burns it all that coming winter.

I did that for the better part of 30 years. My neighbors still do. Well, not log lengths but I cut in the spring and early summer and burned it that fall and winter.

Found this damned web site and now the stuff out back is so dry it is scary.