Does my fireplace chimney flue look good for installing a wood stove insert with a flue? (just swept it)

[yuryk]

Dear Community!

I have moved into a house where the fireplace had a wood stove insert from the very beginning and for 23 years. Although, they put it directly into the fireplace flue, without any additional liner, so the existing flue liner was filthy as the chimney sweep guy said. Previous owners claim they cleaned it, but I'm not sure if it happened every year as they say. So the chimney sweep guy used plastic brushes on a drill to clean it. This is how it looks after cleaning:

I regret I did not make similar photos prior to cleaning, so I'm not sure how much of creosote there was before, but I have just few, where flue is just slightly visible:

Anyway, my question is: is the current condition of the fireplace liner (very first photo) appropriate for installing a wood stove insert with an insulated liner and a blockoff plate? As I see, there is some creosote left in a corner, as well as closer to the upper portion of the flue. I have discussed it with the chimney sweep company, they basically said that they couldn't use chains to not damage the liner, but now as they noticed 2 cracks in the liner (visible on the first photo) they could do it as a separate chains cleaning (for another fee), but saying it could destroy the liner, so I opted out for now. Although, as they mentioned, it should be fine for installing a wood stove as is. So I just wanted to ask you guys, what do you think?

Thank you in advance!

 

[begreen]

Still looks a bit gunky. It will need a 6" insulated, stainless liner in order to make it suitable for an insert.

 

[webby3650]

Chains won’t destroy it, lol.
You’re fine to have an insert and liner installed though.

 

[yuryk]

Still looks a bit gunky. It will need a 6" insulated, stainless liner in order to make it suitable for an insert.

Thanks. That's what I thought... Since I'm very new to this, I called them and showed this photo with question: is it considered "job done"? The guy explained to me that this stuff simply won't come off and it won't be perfectly clean, plus it was very dirty due to wood stove, so it's kinda acceptable. And if I want more - I'd have to order those chains for additional fee. Anyway, will see what the insert installers say about it. Hopefully, they'll be able to do it.

One thing I was worried about is that if I put a blockoff plate and that remaining creosote in the outer flue will continue falling down on it - would that be an issue? I plan to get an insert with a bypass damper, so I won't need to move it for flue sweeping, which means I won't know how the plate is doing...

Chains won’t destroy it, lol.

Well, the guy pointed out to 2 cuts/cracks in the liner and said that they're not officially using chains since they often damage the liner. when he named me the price for a new fireplace liner (about 4k), I decided to not do chains for now

 

[webby3650]

Thanks. That's what I thought... Since I'm very new to this, I called them and showed this photo with question: is it considered "job done"? The guy explained to me that this stuff simply won't come off and it won't be perfectly clean, plus it was very dirty due to wood stove, so it's kinda acceptable. And if I want more - I'd have to order those chains for additional fee. Anyway, will see what the insert installers say about it. Hopefully, they'll be able to do it.

One thing I was worried about is that if I put a blockoff plate and that remaining creosote in the outer flue will continue falling down on it - would that be an issue? I plan to get an insert with a bypass damper, so I won't need to move it for flue sweeping, which means I won't know how the plate is doing...


Well, the guy pointed out to 2 cuts/cracks in the liner and said that they're not officially using chains since they often damage the liner. when he named me the price for a new fireplace liner (about 4k), I decided to not do chains for now

I swear, chimney sweeps and their crazy prices! We do liners and a stove for less than half of what folks are quoted from a sweep.

 

[stovelark]

I'm with you Webby- Prices are high, I understand business costs are up up up, but it seems sometimes (at least here is SE CT) because only a few guys still do liners/installs, they can command more and be more picky in their job selections. It is pretty much thankless work, I chose to have a guy who is more expensive than most do my own liner for my stove years and years ago, but he did nice, clean work. Everybody stay warm.

 

[bholler]

Dear Community!

I have moved into a house where the fireplace had a wood stove insert from the very beginning and for 23 years. Although, they put it directly into the fireplace flue, without any additional liner, so the existing flue liner was filthy as the chimney sweep guy said. Previous owners claim they cleaned it, but I'm not sure if it happened every year as they say. So the chimney sweep guy used plastic brushes on a drill to clean it. This is how it looks after cleaning:
View attachment 324861

I regret I did not make similar photos prior to cleaning, so I'm not sure how much of creosote there was before, but I have just few, where flue is just slightly visible:

View attachment 324867 View attachment 324866
Anyway, my question is: is the current condition of the fireplace liner (very first photo) appropriate for installing a wood stove insert with an insulated liner and a blockoff plate? As I see, there is some creosote left in a corner, as well as closer to the upper portion of the flue. I have discussed it with the chimney sweep company, they basically said that they couldn't use chains to not damage the liner, but now as they noticed 2 cracks in the liner (visible on the first photo) they could do it as a separate chains cleaning (for another fee), but saying it could destroy the liner, so I opted out for now. Although, as they mentioned, it should be fine for installing a wood stove as is. So I just wanted to ask you guys, what do you think?

Thank you in advance!

You liner is already broken and needs replaced. So if it needs chain cleaning to get it clean enough for a liner for a stove yes it my damage it more but it's not going to change anything.

 

[yuryk]

It will need a 6" insulated, stainless liner in order to make it suitable for an insert.

@begreen , I've asked the dealer yesterday if they put an insulated liner. They said they don't usually do it, it's twice more expensive than a regular one (1700 vs 800) and it might not fit into my existing fireplace flue. Also they said that they will seal it at the top, as well as at the bottom, so that way having insulated liner would not make much of a difference since I would not lose in efficiency in that case. Should I still try to get an insulated one?

Also, is it a common practice for insert installers to prepare chimney/flue if there is not enough space and it's not a lot of work? I.e. by quickly removing excess creosote. Or they can say: please do the chain cleaning first, then come back to us?

 

[kborndale]

@begreen , I've asked the dealer yesterday if they put an insulated liner. They said they don't usually do it, it's twice more expensive than a regular one (1700 vs 800) and it might not fit into my existing fireplace flue. Also they said that they will seal it at the top, as well as at the bottom, so that way having insulated liner would not make much of a difference since I would not lose in efficiency in that case. Should I still try to get an insulated one?

Also, is it a common practice for insert installers to prepare chimney/flue if there is not enough space and it's not a lot of work? I.e. by quickly removing excess creosote. Or they can say: please do the chain cleaning first, then come back to us?

If your dealer said that they don't normally insulate liners I would find a different dealer. In most situations it is required for code. It's not that difficult to remove the clay liner so you can fit an insulated SS liner in

 

[begreen]

The dealer's response is not untypical. They want to get the job done quickly at a competitive price. Code will require an insulated liner unless the entire chimney structure has no contact with wood.

Is this an interior or exterior chimney? Do you know the flue tile size?

 

[yuryk]

Is this an interior or exterior chimney?

This is an exterior chimney, here is its photo:

Do you know the flue tile size?

I don't, but hopefully you can judge by a photo from above...

In most situations it is required for code

Code will require an insulated liner

Thank you guys, this is good to know! I called another 2 dealers and one of them said they will put it (first one also said they don't as I won't need it). And the price is just 50% higher, not 100 like the first dealer. So good progress... Will call few more I'm calling official Lopi dealers and there are about 5 in 30 miles radius, so not a lot of options...

The dealer's response is not untypical. They want to get the job done quickly at a competitive price.

This is valuable info for me, there is no way for me to know that, thanks! I am very glad I registered at this place, you guys rock!

 

[bholler]

This is an exterior chimney, here is its photo:
View attachment 325014


I don't, but hopefully you can judge by a photo from above...



Thank you guys, this is good to know! I called another 2 dealers and one of them said they will put it (first one also said they don't as I won't need it). And the price is just 50% higher, not 100 like the first dealer. So good progress... Will call few more I'm calling official Lopi dealers and there are about 5 in 30 miles radius, so not a lot of options...


This is valuable info for me, there is no way for me to know that, thanks! I am very glad I registered at this place, you guys rock!

You have 12x12 liners so an insulated liner will easily fit. And from the pic I can tell you that your chimney doesn't have the required clearances so the liner needs to be insulated

 

[yuryk]

You have 12x12 liners so an insulated liner will easily fit.

So after sharing this same exact pic to one of the dealers, their quote for an insulated liner came as 1k more than the regular one - that's just the liner price alone (800 for regular, 1,8k for insulated). But that's not all... next day after discussing it internally they came back and said they looked more on that picture and because of my setup they would need "much more work" for the liner and blockoff plate. Here is what they said: "We can do a metal block off and insulated liner, but would probably not fit without full demo of tile and being next to other flue this would need to be demo’ d as well with new liner run to furnace or hot water heater. We do use block off plates and can insulate top section near cap, also silicone top plate so there is no air infiltration". So as a result they have added 4,5k more on top of the whole quote for "demo of both flues, reline of smaller furnace flue".

Since this community is where I first heard about insulated liner and blockoff plate, I guess I would need your help to understand whether these are legit concerns and the price is really justified and usually that high OR it's a total BS? At first glance it looks like the latter, but I'm very far from being a specialist in this domain, therefore looking at you more sophisticated folks here... Please help me understand it.

Also, is it usually possible to order such insulated liner myself and just provide it for a dealer to work with? I have checked with guys that reference hearth.com in their articles when they talk about insulated liners - Chimney Liner Depot, but they said they don't make those. Would you know a place to recommend?

Thank you!

 

[begreen]

Rockford Chimney has a full line of chimney lining products.

 

[stovelark]

Wow, bummer. Looks like a 11x11/12x12 fp flue and a 7x7/8x8 furnace flue chimney. Can't tell chimney height, is it excessive?
Seems like an insulated 6" liner would scoot down like a hot dog down a hallway, looks like the flue is straight down? So, for the fp flue with an insulated liner, I'd think around 3-3.5K to get it installed. Good luck with it.

 

[BillBurns]

You gotta pay to play...as they say. I just dont pay or play. I burn wood to heat my house, thats it.

 

[yuryk]

Wow, bummer. Looks like a 11x11/12x12 fp flue and a 7x7/8x8 furnace flue chimney. Can't tell chimney height, is it excessive?
Seems like an insulated 6" liner would scoot down like a hot dog down a hallway, looks like the flue is straight down? So, for the fp flue with an insulated liner, I'd think around 3-3.5K to get it installed. Good luck with it.

Is "hot dog down a hallway" considered to be easy or hard? Chimney height is about 29ft - just measured it recently. It is a straight one, yes. Why so expensive to install? Or you meant installation with its cost? Installation anyway costs about 15-25 hundred, and insulated liners are about 15 hundred, so if you meant with its price, then it's expected. Non-insulated liner is about $500 cheaper, but I guess it's worth it.

 

[stovelark]

Hey Yury I meant 3500 installed. Oh yeah hot dog down a hallway is an easy install ha. Buddy of mine used to use that term for describing a 6" liner in a 12x12 flue, ha.

 

[yuryk]

Guys, I have a question for you about insulated liner and the best way to install it through my damper assembly. Basically, what an installer says is, we would probably need to remove the middle part of the assembly (cut it), as well as middle upper part of the fire bricks (approximately red square area) on the back wall because it curves:

The exit to the flue is made with a "step" (as seen on my photos in the initial post), so the liner would need to be bent.

Is it common to remove those fire bricks to install an insulated liner? Is it a serious "operation" and is it "bad" for the chimney, or just a problem to solve if ever decide to get back to the regular fireplace?

Also, looks like there is another way of doing it by using an oval stove adapter + oval to round flex chimney pipe + insulated round liner all the way to the top in the chimney:

What do you guys think? Is there anything you would recommend/add to this? Maybe something that would make our life easier or something not to forget, etc.?

Thank you very much in advance.

 

[EbS-P]

Both my installs have the damper frame assembly completely removed. And the top row of fire bricks while still present were removed and replaced in a new position that allowed for enough clearance. I would avoid and oval section if possible. Remember there are 15 and 30 degree appliance adapters.

After running an insert no one in their right mind would ever go back to an open fireplace. Make it work for your purposes now. Anything can be repaired (sometimes it just costs more than practical)

 

[yuryk]

Thank you for your reply. I have also forgot to mention that behind that firebricks seems to be poured concrete, rather than sand. Hope it won't be an issue...

Both my installs have the damper frame assembly completely removed.

Is it a preference just towards cutting the middle section of it? Or in both cases it won't be reusable anyway?

I would avoid and oval section if possible.

Is there a specific reason for that? By design it looks to be very convenient to fit in tight places... Does it cause issues?

After running an insert no one in their right mind would ever go back to an open fireplace.

Yeah, but I was more thinking about a hypothetical case of selling a house in the future - then I would probably take that unit with me, because I would not find it anymore (they're discontinued)

 

[EbS-P]

Thank you for your reply. I have also forgot to mention that behind that firebricks seems to be poured concrete, rather than sand. Hope it won't be an issue...


Is it a preference just towards cutting the middle section of it? Or in both cases it won't be reusable anyway?


Is there a specific reason for that? By design it looks to be very convenient to fit in tight places... Does it cause issues?


Yeah, but I was more thinking about a hypothetical case of selling a house in the future - then I would probably take that unit with me, because I would not find it anymore (they're discontinued)

I think the preferred solution is the easiest. I didn’t have to cut anything. Just a hammer and a chisel. Either way the damper must replace (if you cut the frame).

It’s simple to use the oval but it will inhibit draft some and then you have to transition back to round. It probably costs $300 more. (Just a guess).

I plan on taking my nice stove with me and just installing a top operating damper if I leave. Or just buying the cheapest stove insert on the market at the time. Or just give the buyer a credit for what ever solution they prefer.

 

[yuryk]

It’s simple to use the oval but it will inhibit draft some and then you have to transition back to round. It probably costs $300 more. (Just a guess).

I see, interesting... Then maybe it's better to go with the first option to cut a bigger opening instead of that oval transition... Although, I have seen people recommended oval when I searched, especially @begreen, like here, here and here Just not sure about the adapter itself and if it's much worse then round all the way...

I plan on taking my nice stove with me and just installing a top operating damper if I leave. Or just buying the cheapest stove insert on the market at the time. Or just give the buyer a credit for what ever solution they prefer.

That makes sense, thank you!

 

[MARK KERWOOD]

Dear Community!

I have moved into a house where the fireplace had a wood stove insert from the very beginning and for 23 years. Although, they put it directly into the fireplace flue, without any additional liner, so the existing flue liner was filthy as the chimney sweep guy said. Previous owners claim they cleaned it, but I'm not sure if it happened every year as they say. So the chimney sweep guy used plastic brushes on a drill to clean it. This is how it looks after cleaning:
View attachment 324861

I regret I did not make similar photos prior to cleaning, so I'm not sure how much of creosote there was before, but I have just few, where flue is just slightly visible:

View attachment 324867 View attachment 324866
Anyway, my question is: is the current condition of the fireplace liner (very first photo) appropriate for installing a wood stove insert with an insulated liner and a blockoff plate? As I see, there is some creosote left in a corner, as well as closer to the upper portion of the flue. I have discussed it with the chimney sweep company, they basically said that they couldn't use chains to not damage the liner, but now as they noticed 2 cracks in the liner (visible on the first photo) they could do it as a separate chains cleaning (for another fee), but saying it could destroy the liner, so I opted out for now. Although, as they mentioned, it should be fine for installing a wood stove as is. So I just wanted to ask you guys, what do you think?

Thank you in advance!

i would recommend a full level 2 inspection, even though an insert with an insulated liner may negate existing flue tile/joint or smoke chamber deficiencies there are other areas of concern that should be inspected prior to installing. how is the chimney exterior? crown/wash, chimney walls, flashing etc?....how about where chimney passes thru an attic? how about wood under the hearth and hearth extension? best thing is to hire an experienced certified chimney sweep to perform a NFPA level 2 inspection before you move forward. ( cleaning a chimney doesnt means it safe!)