Down to 4 Stoves: Quadrafire, Pacific Energy, Drolet, Englander

[webbie]

Sorry, I know I'm uneducated on all of this. I've been reading and researching extensively but I've always though fireplaces and/or inserts were a lot less efficient than a stove. How much heat do get when the power goes out and you don't have the blower?

Fireplaces on exterior walls with the masonry outside are a no-no.....stick with your alcove idea unless you want to install an EPA fireplace (zero clearance) on the interior of the home. (IMHO).

An insert installed into a fireplace with large outdoor masonry mass could lose as much as 1/2 of it's heat to that mass, outside and up the chimney. Efficiency figures on inserts are usually not given based on that kind of an installation.....and, keep in mind, EPA usually doesn't test for efficiency at all.

If the most heat for your money and wood is the goal, consider the alcove and/or 100% interior based installations. At least then the heat soaked up by masonry is released to the house.

 

[Grisu]

Sorry, I know I'm uneducated on all of this. I've been reading and researching extensively but I've always though fireplaces and/or inserts were a lot less efficient than a stove. How much heat do get when the power goes out and you don't have the blower?

Pretty much the same depending on the efficiency of your installation. First, you have to distinguish the efficiency of your heating unit (stove/fireplace/insert) versus the efficiency of your installation. The efficiency given by the manufacturer states how much heat the unit distributes to its surrounding versus the amount that goes up the flue. For a modern wood burning unit that is in the 70% to 85% range under testing lab conditions. However, the efficiency of your installation determines how much of that heat will actually end up in your home. Put an 80% efficient wood stove in an unfinished basement with cement walls and slab floor and you will heat a lot of ground but not your home. Same for putting an insert into an old masonry fireplace made out of brick that sits on an exterior wall. The insert will heat the brick which will radiate it out into your yard. Your efficient wood burning appliance just got a lot less efficient. Hence, the blue circle in your plan would be perfect for any woodburning appliance as they only heat lost is the one going up the flue. The rest will heat your home sooner or later depending on how well you can distribute it.

Now to the difference between stove, fireplace insert, zero clearance fireplace: First, you don't need an insert as you don't have a masonry fireplace and I doubt you want to spend all that money to build one. A zero clearance fireplace is essentially a steelbox that has been designed to be installed into a woodframe. Here is a scheme:

You can buy units that are as inefficient as any masonry fireplace but also many that are as efficient as a modern woodstove. Check the efficiency ratings and whether it says "EPA-approved" or "EPA-certified" or similar (however, NOT EPA-exempt). As you can deduce from the picture, room air flows around the unit, heats up and is released in the top. If the blower would not be working you would need to rely on convection but no heat gets lost other than the one going up the flue. If the wall in the back goes to the outside, its insulation would determine how much heat you would lose there. However, that has nothing to do with your fireplace; the same would apply to a woodstove sitting there.

The FP30 I linked to earlier has the same firebox as the PE Summit but its outer shell is designed to be installed as a ZC fireplace. The efficiency is essentially the same. There are many other manufacturers who make efficient ZC fireplaces (KozyHeat, Lennox, Fireplace Xtraordinaire, Osburn, Napoleon, Valcourt, RSF etc.)

What you could do with that blue circle alcove is building it out of bricks or similar, then install a modern ZC fireplace facing the living room and finish that side, too. The fireplace will heat up the bricks which will radiate it into the entry. You get the effect of a masonry heater. Of course, you can also put up drywall if you like that better. Those modern ZC fireplaces can also be ducted meaning you can run a duct through the attic over the corridor and dump the heat somewhere between the laundry and the bedroom 2 to heat also that part of the house.

 

[smokedragon]

I've always though fireplaces and/or inserts were a lot less efficient than a stove.

Fireplaces yes, since most of the heat goes up the flue (old style). Newer fireplaces that aren't literally a hole in brick with a flue for smoke to exit are a bit better. As Webbie said, in the wrong installation, you can still lose a lot of heat (and they are still less efficient).

Fireplace inserts are a bit of a bummer when there is no power, but they are nearly as efficient as free standing stoves. However a free stander that is installed properly (located centrally and not in an alcove) can heat the entire house with no power usage at all.

I am switching to a free standing stove this off season, and I cannot tell you just how excited I really am.

 

[smokedragon]

however, NOT EPA-exempt)

+1 to that......avoid EPA exempt. These will be inefficient and not give a wide range of burn temps (and eat through your wood pile like a hungry monster).

It still bugs me to no end that they make all these regulations to clean up our air, but then exempt certain categories of wood burning appliances

 

[eric-holmes]

Still pumping out the great information guys!

I am beginning to open my mind more to the catalytic stoves. Let me see if I understand this principal correctly... The catalyst can be bypassed and the stove will be operated as a normal non-catalytic stove. Is that a correct statement? That only when you engage the catalyst and redirect the air current is when that catalytic is used. Wouldn't that be essentially the best of both worlds?

What I can't seem to find is the difference between and hybrid and a catalytic stove.

I am also looking more into the ZC fireplaces although I am still like the freestanding stove looks best.

 

[Grisu]

Still pumping out the great information guys!

I am beginning to open my mind more to the catalytic stoves. Let me see if I understand this principal correctly... The catalyst can be bypassed and the stove will be operated as a normal non-catalytic stove. Is that a correct statement? That only when you engage the catalyst and redirect the air current is when that catalytic is used. Wouldn't that be essentially the best of both worlds?

When you leave the bypass open you operate the stove as an old-style "smoke dragon" with a ~30% efficiency. A modern non-catalytic stove has secondary burn tubes in the top that increase the efficiency to 70% to 80%. The wood is heated up in the bottom of the firebox, outgases its burnable components, which rise to the secondary burn zone in the top. There, those woodgases mix with hot air and ignite to give you the typical secondary burn. Instead of sending most of those unburnt gases up the flue as in an old-style stove, they actually heat your home. In a cat stove, the catalyst will promote the oxidation ("burning") of those woodgases without a secondary burn tube system. Secondary burn stoves need to be run hot to really burn all the smoke particles. A catalytic stove is already efficient at relatively low temperatures.

What I can't seem to find is the difference between and hybrid and a catalytic stove.

A "hybrid" (as loosely as the term may be defined) has both: secondary burn tubes and then the gases go through a catalyst to really burn everything that's left. That's how they get those slightly higher efficiencies and low particle emissions. While a cat stove is better at low and medium temps, a non-cat shines at high temps. A hybrid is supposed to cover the entire spectrum well.

I am also looking more into the ZC fireplaces although I am still like the freestanding stove looks best.

If you like the look of a woodstove best then by all means go for it. I like to mention ZC fireplaces because most people don't seem to know that there are very efficient ones out there and they would rather install one then and not a stove.

 

[begreen]

Still pumping out the great information guys!

I am beginning to open my mind more to the catalytic stoves. Let me see if I understand this principal correctly... The catalyst can be bypassed and the stove will be operated as a normal non-catalytic stove. Is that a correct statement? That only when you engage the catalyst and redirect the air current is when that catalytic is used. Wouldn't that be essentially the best of both worlds?

What I can't seem to find is the difference between and hybrid and a catalytic stove.

I am also looking more into the ZC fireplaces although I am still like the freestanding stove looks best.

Depends on the stove. Many when bypassed are operating like a stove from the 1970's. You definitely don't want to burn any longer than necessary in this mode with these stoves.

 

[smokedragon]

When you leave the bypass open you operate the stove as an old-style "smoke dragon" with a ~30% efficiency. A modern non-catalytic stove has secondary burn tubes in the top that increase the efficiency to 70% to 80%

To add to Grisu's comment on hybrids: If a stove has both secondary burn and catalytic converter (what is industry termed as hybrid), then when the bypass is open, you are operating just like a modern secondary burn stove. You are less efficient in this mode than with the bypass closed, but more efficient than an old stove.

If you have a catalytic only stove then when in bypass mode begreen's comment is spot on. Additionally, really efficient catalytic stoves (like blaze kings) derive a great deal of their heat output from the very high temperature their catalyst operates at. Watch a video or two of blaze king stoves, you will see catalyst temps 1200 - 1600 degrees. That is the primary source of their high heat/high efficiency output. When you open that bypass, you are sending all the heat that catalyst traps right up the flue (just like begreen said)

 

[eric-holmes]

I've been looking really hard at this Regency F5100. Nice large box but since it's a cat stove, I should be able to choke down that box and utilize a smaller temp if I don't need it rip roaring, correct? Price seemed really good compared to others I've checked on. They said it retailed $3,199 and they said that was before any discounts or deals that we may work out. Can't find many reviews on it yet though.

 

[Grisu]

I've been looking really hard at this Regency F5100. Nice large box but since it's a cat stove, I should be able to choke down that box and utilize a smaller temp if I don't need it rip roaring, correct? Price seemed really good compared to others I've checked on. They said it retailed $3,199 and they said that was before any discounts or deals that we may work out. Can't find many reviews on it yet though.

What kind/level of insulation do you plan on putting in the attic and walls? Do you have a heating load analysis for your new house? That is a huge stove and I would be surprised if you need such a "monster". You'll find few reviews because few people need such a big stove and it is a relatively new model. For cat stoves I would look at the BlazeKing princess or its "30" line. The Woodstock Progress or the Ideal Steel would be suitable candidates. The Buck 80 is maybe a tad small but a possibility. If you want to go big, the Kuma Sequoia has been around a long time and puts out some serious heat. Again, not sure if you really need that much stove.

 

[begreen]

It's a new model and Regency's first cat stove. It could be called a "hybrid" as it has a secondary air tube below the cat assembly. They are claiming 30+ hr burn times on a full load of wood, implying it will burn low and slow. We'll be looking forward to reports if you chose to get one.

 

[Dairyman]

To add to Grisu's comment on hybrids: If a stove has both secondary burn and catalytic converter (what is industry termed as hybrid), then when the bypass is open, you are operating just like a modern secondary burn stove. You are less efficient in this mode than with the bypass closed, but more efficient than an old stove.

This is incorrect. You close the bypass once the stove is up to the proper temp. To achieve a secondary burn you'll leave the air open more or get the stove hotter before you close the air.

 

[eric-holmes]

What kind/level of insulation do you plan on putting in the attic and walls? Do you have a heating load analysis for your new house?

Tight packed cellulose in the walls and blown cellulose in the ceiling. No, I don't have a heat load analysis.

I know that the firebox is huge on that stove. But isn't that one of the great things about a cat stove, you can run a smaller fire at a lower temp? It's just hard to pass up a nice big stove when you never know when you may need it, especially when it's the same price as others.

 

[Grisu]

Tight packed cellulose in the walls and blown cellulose in the ceiling. No, I don't have a heat load analysis.

Did you ask your builder about the r-value he wants to put in? The better the insulation the lower your heating and cooling needs. Compare your builder's response with the recommended levels for your area: http://web.ornl.gov/sci/roofs+walls/insulation/ins_16.html

I know that the firebox is huge on that stove. But isn't that one of the great things about a cat stove, you can run a smaller fire at a lower temp? It's just hard to pass up a nice big stove when you never know when you may need it, especially when it's the same price as others.

You may ask a bit too much from a cat stove; plus the Regency is actually more of a "hybrid". Even on low that stove should put out some serious heat. If you want the convenience of a furnace, I suggest looking at pellet stoves. Maybe ask a BlazeKing King owner what house they heat at what outside temps on a low setting. In general, that kind of stove is used by people who live in really cold climates in homes with moderate insulation. If money is a concern, look at the Woodstock Ideal Steel currently offered at $2200 (including "the works") and can be customized further. Its 3.2 cu ft firebox will easily be enough once temps get in the single digits.

 

[begreen]

The F5100 has an EPA tested output from 11,738 - 41,982 btus. The suggested FP30 has a tested output of 11,829-38,556 btus.

 

[Grisu]

The F5100 has an EPA tested output from 11,738 - 41,982 btus. The suggested FP30 has a tested output of 11,829-38,556 btus.

Yes, I looked over the EPA data, too, and somehow they don't make sense to me. Regardless which size stove they pretty much all start ~10,000 BTU/hr and go up into the 40,000 to 50,000 BTU/hr range. So larger stove does not really mean you can heat a larger space; you simply extend the burn time? I would also like to know whether the efficiency is close to be the same across the whole spectrum.

 

[begreen]

EPA testing is done with a fixed load of doug fir dimensional lumber so not surprisingly, different stoves give similar results. They do not test with a full load of hardwood for the maximum output of the stove. It would be rare for a homeowner to reach that max and probably not sustainable. The point being is that we don't have a working idea of how the Regency F5100 will burn in this situation. It's too new on the market. My guess is that it will burn somewhat similarly to the Ideal Steel, but that is just a guess. With that in mind the EPA testing result is a start. Based on that testing I suspect the 5100 will do ok, especially if they are heating the place to tropical temps. They can run the stove burning smaller fires of pine, cottonwood or poplar during milder weather if lower heat output is desired. I also think the suggestion of a T6 is a good one due to it's wide heating range. But any of the first 4 choices will get the job done.

 

[Grisu]

EPA testing is done with a fixed load of doug fir dimensional lumber so not surprisingly, different stoves give similar results. They do not test with a full load of hardwood for the maximum output of the stove. It would be rare for a homeowner to reach that max and probably not sustainable. The point being is that we don't have a working idea of how the Regency F5100 will burn in this situation. It's too new on the market. My guess is that it will burn somewhat similarly to the Ideal Steel, but that is just a guess.

Fair point. Since we don't really know how the Regency will heat, I suggested asking a BK King owner or someone having a Buck 91 as it would be another relatively comparable stove. That would be based on "real-world" experiences. Given that and looking at what other stoves people use here to be comfortable, I doubt that a 4+ cu ft firebox is needed to heat a new construction in a southern climate. When you need to choke it down even at outside temps below 30 F, what do you do when the temps are in the 40ies?

They can run the stove burning smaller fires of pine, cottonwood or poplar during milder weather if lower heat output is desired.

That's a bit different from my experience. Yes, smaller fires will give less heat (for more work overall). But softwoods will actually give up as much or more heat per hour as they burn up hot and quickly. And if burning smaller fires becomes the norm, then I don't see the justification for an extra-large stove.

 

[Woody Stover]

I doubt that a 4+ cu ft firebox is needed to heat a new construction in a southern climate. When you need to choke it down even at outside temps below 30 F, what do you do when the temps are in the 40ies?

Yep, AR is way down south. Average lows in Jan. are 31, ten degrees warmer than here. I would size for the normal temp range, then use the furnace for the occasional cold night. In that climate you want a cat stove that will burn low and long most of the time, giving you the heat you need without having to mess with a series of small loads. Yes, they like it warm but if they are mostly hanging in the stove room, even a medium-sized stove, convective or radiant, would keep it warm in the LR. If the kids hang out in their rooms they may need electric heaters back there, even with a convective-type stove that is heating and moving air. Then there is the fan-noise issue.... With a big stove, I guess you could use a couple of small fans on the floor in strategic locations, to return cool air to the stove room and distribute the heat better.

 

[eric-holmes]

For cat stoves I would look at the BlazeKing princess or its "30" line.

I am really looking into this Sirocco 30 too. I love the lines. Reviews seem good.

http://www.blazeking.com/EN/wood-sirocco30.html

 

[Grisu]

BK stoves have a loyal fanbase here. I am sure if you try the forum search you'll find quite a few threads about the Sirocco. FYI, the equivalent Ashford 30 has a cast-iron body and therefore a somewhat better thermal mass to even out temp swings. Not sure if it will really make a noticeable difference, just thought you may want to know.

 

[Bigg_Redd]

I think the red circle is a good spot.....not perfectly central, but it is hard to do that sometimes.

I like the blue spot better. It's more central. The chimney could have a chase installed.

I like whichever spot is closer to the wood ingress/egress

 

[Bigg_Redd]

I've been reading and researching extensively but I've always though fireplaces and/or inserts were a lot less efficient than a stove.

Seems you have conflated insets and fireplaces. Fireplaces are basically for campfires inside your house. Inserts are stoves and are no more or less efficient than their freestanding counterparts.

 

[eric-holmes]

I've also been looking at the BK Princess and it appears there are 2 models, the Ultra and the Parlour. It seems they are shaped different but I can't find a lot of information about this. The brochure talks about the two but the website has no distinguishing statement.

 

[Grisu]

I've also been looking at the BK Princess and it appears there are 2 models, the Ultra and the Parlour. It seems they are shaped different but I can't find a lot of information about this. The brochure talks about the two but the website has no distinguishing statement.

I think they are only different in their options like the Ultra has a pedestal with ash pan while the Parlor has cast iron legs. See the brochure page 4 on the right (options). If you are that interested in BK stoves how about talking to a dealer near you http://blazeking.com/storefinder/embed.php ? Or give them a call; people here have described their customer service as extremely helpful.