Easy remdy needed for register under wood stove floor.

[Eliza10]

We have a problem to solve today. At least we need a plan to solve it because the tile guy comes tomorrow.

We have a return register for the forced air heating system right under the new wood stove hearth that is set to be tiled tomorrow. It is not in the spot the stove legs will be, but behind it. My husband is cutting the cement board for the space today. He had previously thought it wasn't hooked up to the heating system so we could cover it, but he now sees it is, so we need to keep it.

We though there might be a sort of metal "lid" we could get for this normal-size register - the opening is 6" x 14" - that we could purchase to cover it when the stove is being used instead of the forced air system. Well, no such lid is to be found.

Could we ask someone to fabricate one for us? And what type of business/person do I call for this?

We both think this would be a good solution. But are we missing something?

 

[bholler]

We have a problem to solve today. At least we need a plan to solve it because the tile guy comes tomorrow.

We have a return register for the forced air heating system right under the new wood stove hearth that is set to be tiled tomorrow. It is not in the spot the stove legs will be, but behind it. My husband is cutting the cement board for the space today. He had previously thought it wasn't hooked up to the heating system so we could cover it, but he now sees it is, so we need to keep it.

We though there might be a sort of metal "lid" we could get for this normal-size register - the opening is 6" x 14" - that we could purchase to cover it when the stove is being used instead of the forced air system. Well, no such lid is to be found.

Could we ask someone to fabricate one for us? And what type of business/person do I call for this?

We both think this would be a good solution. But are we missing something?

It needs to be moved. A return register can't be within 10' of the stove.

 

[begreen]

Yes, the return air supply is important. It should not be blocked. Instead it should be relocated at least 10 ft from the stove.

 

[Bad LP]

What they said. Removing it would also upset the balancing of the HVAC system.

 

[Sawset]

And what type of business/person do I call for this?

An HVAC contractor would be a good start. They should be able to tell you your options about where to reroute a new return to, and how to tie it into the existing system, then have the crew to get that done.

 

[Eliza10]

I must have not explained myself well. Let me clarify.

1) We would NEVER be using the wood stove at the same time as our the forced air heat. It will ALWAYS be either/or. That is why we have the lid idea.

2) We have NO intention of covering that return register permanently. We both understand that that cannot be done. I would mess up the approved, expert plan of the HVAC guy who he installed our furnace. I am talking about a removable metal lid.

Since the hearth is allowed to be not only the cement board and ceramic tile we are going to use, but also simple sheet metal, it seems it should be fine to cover the return register with a metal fitted "lid" (I want one with a handle, like on a pot) over the register when the furnace is off and we are going to use the wood stove. This seems logical, unless we are missing something.

The lid can stay stored inside the stove, in front, propped so it's in the way of any wood you want to put tin, shiny metal and noticeable, so that when we go to use the stove we must first remove the lid, which would go directly over the register.

My husband needs to prepare the cement board tomorrow morning so our tile installer can later tomorrow install the tile, and then the chimney guy can, as planned, finish putting all the parts together next week. Actually, the cemented tile will be just on the wall behind. For the hearth, our installer will cut the tile to fit the cement hearth board my husband cuts, the tile will just sit on it without cement (laid closely, edge to edge), and my husband will make wood edging to contain the tile.

So I think tomorrow when my husband cuts teh cement board, he will just cut a hole for the register in the exact size for the exact spot.

Our time for this project, our budget and the space in this area (and the space in the whole house) are all limited. Adding a major reconstruction project of relocating a register would unnecessarily stress all three constraints: time, budget and space. So the fitted metal lid idea seems a great fix, unless we missed something. Seems like probably not? Or someone would have explained what we missed.

I am overwhelmed at how much there is to learn and do in order to get a stove and install it safely. I had NO idea how involved each step of the way could be.

I am SO grateful for the help here choosing our stove. I felt such relief when it was being delivered that I did not have to worry we had chosen the wrong one! I really don't know how else we could have gotten that very helpful feedback, and so quickly, just when we needed it. Thank you so much, Hearth.com!

The guy at Rockford Chimney Supply was very helpful explaining all we needed to know about liners and they sent what we needed very quickly and I am glad we ordered from them.

The guy tiling for us tomorrow is a mason who has done two mason jobs for us before (footing and foundation for my husband's carpentry) and we like and trust him. (My husband can do so many things and we have done a remarkable am amount of DIY things on our house, but he does not like masonry.)

And the chimney guy who will help us put it all together next week gave us a whole very intense entire hour on the phone with us, analyzing exactly what needed to be done for every single aspect of the safe installation, after looking at our email with pictures and measurements.

My goal when I started was everything in place for heating with wood this winter if needed, and as soon as possible. I had no idea it would involve SO MUCH. It has been a huge initiation into the world of wood stoves. And that's just purchase and installation. I still have to learn about wood and then actually lighting and keeping a fire!

 

[begreen]

I understand the spirit here, but it is a direct violation of mechanical code. This could become an issue in an insurance dispute should one arise.

 

[bholler]

I must have not explained myself well. Let me clarify.

1) We would NEVER be using the wood stove at the same time as our the forced air heat. It will ALWAYS be either/or. That is why we have the lid idea.

2) We have NO intention of covering that return register permanently. We both understand that that cannot be done. I would mess up the approved, expert plan of the HVAC guy who he installed our furnace. I am talking about a removable metal lid.

Since the hearth is allowed to be not only the cement board and ceramic tile we are going to use, but also simple sheet metal, it seems it should be fine to cover the return register with a metal fitted "lid" (I want one with a handle, like on a pot) over the register when the furnace is off and we are going to use the wood stove. This seems logical, unless we are missing something.

The lid can stay stored inside the stove, in front, propped so it's in the way of any wood you want to put tin, shiny metal and noticeable, so that when we go to use the stove we must first remove the lid, which would go directly over the register.

My husband needs to prepare the cement board tomorrow morning so our tile installer can later tomorrow install the tile, and then the chimney guy can, as planned, finish putting all the parts together next week. Actually, the cemented tile will be just on the wall behind. For the hearth, our installer will cut the tile to fit the cement hearth board my husband cuts, the tile will just sit on it without cement (laid closely, edge to edge), and my husband will make wood edging to contain the tile.

So I think tomorrow when my husband cuts teh cement board, he will just cut a hole for the register in the exact size for the exact spot.

Our time for this project, our budget and the space in this area (and the space in the whole house) are all limited. Adding a major reconstruction project of relocating a register would unnecessarily stress all three constraints: time, budget and space. So the fitted metal lid idea seems a great fix, unless we missed something. Seems like probably not? Or someone would have explained what we missed.

I am overwhelmed at how much there is to learn and do in order to get a stove and install it safely. I had NO idea how involved each step of the way could be.

I am SO grateful for the help here choosing our stove. I felt such relief when it was being delivered that I did not have to worry we had chosen the wrong one! I really don't know how else we could have gotten that very helpful feedback, and so quickly, just when we needed it. Thank you so much, Hearth.com!

The guy at Rockford Chimney Supply was very helpful explaining all we needed to know about liners and they sent what we needed very quickly and I am glad we ordered from them.

The guy tiling for us tomorrow is a mason who has done two mason jobs for us before (footing and foundation for my husband's carpentry) and we like and trust him. (My husband can do so many things and we have done a remarkable am amount of DIY things on our house, but he does not like masonry.)

And the chimney guy who will help us put it all together next week gave us a whole very intense entire hour on the phone with us, analyzing exactly what needed to be done for every single aspect of the safe installation, after looking at our email with pictures and measurements.

My goal when I started was everything in place for heating with wood this winter if needed, and as soon as possible. I had no idea it would involve SO MUCH. It has been a huge initiation into the world of wood stoves. And that's just purchase and installation. I still have to learn about wood and then actually lighting and keeping a fire!

Also did rockford have you insulate the liner?

 

[bholler]

The real danger is when the fire is almost out just coals but not producing any heat. When your furnace would normally take over. At that point there is little draft and the wood is creating the highest levels of carbon monoxide. That air return could reverse the draft pulling co into the ducts and distributing it through the house

 

[Eliza10]

I understand the spirit here, but it is a direct violation of mechanical code. This could become an issue in an insurance dispute should one arise.

I see, a code violation for the furnace, I assume you are saying?
Because while using both kinds of heat off and on, we are dependent on our remembering to uncover the register after each period of stove use.

It is probably best to intend to later move the register, as I don't see how we can do it now, and meantime use the bespoke-lid idea, intending to make a permanent change later.

Tomorrow we should save a cement board to exactly cover the register space, and also some tile cut to fit over, and put those things aside. Then we have the option of later moving the register to a new spot, and laying the reserved cement board and tile over the boarded over ex-register space.

 

[Eliza10]

Also did rockford have you insulate the liner?

Good question. I talked to Rockford first, and we didn't talk about the insulated liner in that conversation, and I was just assuming we would insulate the liner because before calling them we had watched their video and seen them putting on insulation on the liner and then the netting like a big stocking.

Then my husband talked to them a couple of times before placing the order with them. When the two liners came - we had decided to go with the two liners because our hot water heater vents out the chimney, and needed it's own vent, and venting it outside sounded complex and expensive) - and there was no insulation and netting I was surprised. My husband said Rockford said we didn't need it. I was confused as to why, but I never got to call and ask,. Then when I later expressed that confusion again to my husband he said, "It probably wouldn't have fit anyway".

Hmm, so why do you ask? Is it less good to not have an insulated liner? I wonder if this decision was made just because it was going to be hard to put the two liners down the chimney as it is?

 

[Eliza10]

The real danger is when the fire is almost out just coals but not producing any heat. When your furnace would normally take over. At that point there is little draft and the wood is creating the highest levels of carbon monoxide. That air return could reverse the draft pulling co into the ducts and distributing it through the house

I see. Okay, we will think this one through. Though we really are thinking of using them at completely separate times.

 

[MTY]

Life happens, the house gets sold, and the next owners have no idea of the danger.

 

[bholler]

Good question. I talked to Rockford first, and we didn't talk about the insulated liner in that conversation, and I was just assuming we would insulate the liner because before calling them we had watched their video and seen them putting on insulation on the liner and then the netting like a big stocking.

Then my husband talked to them a couple of times before placing the order with them. When the two liners came - we had decided to go with the two liners because our hot water heater vents out the chimney, and needed it's own vent, and venting it outside sounded complex and expensive) - and there was no insulation and netting I was surprised. My husband said Rockford said we didn't need it. I was confused as to why, but I never got to call and ask,. Then when I later expressed that confusion again to my husband he said, "It probably wouldn't have fit anyway".

Hmm, so why do you ask? Is it less good to not have an insulated liner? I wonder if this decision was made just because it was going to be hard to put the two liners down the chimney as it is?

Did they even have you check for proper clearances to combustibles from the outside of the chimney?

 

[Sawset]

Then we have the option of later moving the register

It 's interesting sometimes looking at a situation where a homeowner has done work on a home, and realize no contractor would do such a thing.

 

[PaulOinMA]

Where are you located? Do you need to pull a building permit and have it inspected to put in a new stove? If yes, how could an inspector have missed the register?

I'm in MA. I replaced my insert in 2018. I got the permit myself.

My former chimney guy, who lives in he same town, argued with me and said that I absolutely didn't need a permit and inspection. Nice, huh?

Fee Schedule | marlboroughma

Construction CostsConstruction costs for all new buildings and structures will be determined from values as listed in the most current ICC Building Valuation Data Report. ICC Building Valuation Data is updated every six months.

www.marlborough-ma.gov

Chimney and Woodstove Safety

Tips on heating safely with wood and other solid fuels.

www.mass.gov

 

[Sawset]

The specific code covering return air openings is "Section M1602 Return Air", part of the IRC (International Residential Code), and would be applicable regardless of state or local jurisdiction.

 

[begreen]

It is probably best to intend to later move the register, as I don't see how we can do it now, and meantime use the bespoke-lid idea, intending to make a permanent change later.

Such things often get postponed, permanently, until there is a problem.

I see. Okay, we will think this one through. Though we really are thinking of using them at completely separate times.

Intent is one thing, but life situations and reality often contradict the best intentions.

 

[Bad LP]

Where are you located? Do you need to pull a building permit and have it inspected to put in a new stove? If yes, how could an inspector have missed the register?

I'm in MA. I replaced my insert in 2018. I got the permit myself.

My former chimney guy, who lives in he same town, argued with me and said that I absolutely didn't need a permit and inspection. Nice, huh?

Fee Schedule | marlboroughma

Construction CostsConstruction costs for all new buildings and structures will be determined from values as listed in the most current ICC Building Valuation Data Report. ICC Building Valuation Data is updated every six months.

www.marlborough-ma.gov

Chimney and Woodstove Safety

Tips on heating safely with wood and other solid fuels.

www.mass.gov

Your former guy was a dope.

 

[Eliza10]

Life happens, the house gets sold, and the next owners have no idea of the danger.

True. However, if that happens, and we haven't yet moved the register, the hearth is wood-look ceramic, and topwards the back is will be this shiny metal with a handle, and its hard not to look at that and be curious enough to pick it up and see what is under it.

 

[bholler]

True. However, if that happens, and we haven't yet moved the register, the hearth is wood-look ceramic, and topwards the back is will be this shiny metal with a handle, and its hard not to look at that and be curious enough to pick it up and see what is under it.

It is still a very clear and potentially deadly code violation. It is a very bad idea.

 

[Eliza10]

Did they even have you check for proper clearances to combustibles from the outside of the chimney?

We have two different chimney people involved. The first was two young guys that a chimney agency sent by. Both were very young, and one seemed more like he was coming along to observe to learn. Neither struck me as being particularly knowledgeable or experienced, but, they were supposed to be capable of doing the inspection we asked for. Their company was not one of my top picks, but all the appointments I could make in mid-August were into Sept.&Oct., and after a few inquiries I began to ask the next ones if they would call me if they had a cancellation. So they were the first to call me, and charged the highest ($150). We all went up there - there are stairs to a roof deck - and basically he held the chimney briefly for a moment seeing if he could shake it (reminding me of when you check a car by kicking the tires) and looked down it with his flashlight, and then up it from the LR chimney thimble with his cell phone. He said the chimney is fine and that we need a liner. So we started shopping for that. Since he is able to chimney inspect I assume he must be trained in what to look for.

The other chimney guy who comes next week to connect the stove and liners and install all I liked from when i first heard him speak on voice message. Polite and thorough. Then he talked to us for an hour and he is clearly quite knowledgeable and experienced and a good person. Also his reviews are good and well written by people who trust his work and have him come regularly. So if the first guys missed anything and there are any problems with clearances to combustibles, I am quite sure he will notice. We already sent him a bunch of pictures and measurements so he could plan his work without making a special extra trip.

 

[PaulOinMA]

Do you need a building permit in your municipality?

 

[bholler]

We have two different chimney people involved. The first was two young guys that a chimney agency sent by. Both were very young, and one seemed more like he was coming along to observe to learn. Neither struck me as being particularly knowledgeable or experienced, but, they were supposed to be capable of doing the inspection we asked for. Their company was not one of my top picks, but all the appointments I could make in mid-August were into Sept.&Oct., and after a few inquiries I began to ask the next ones if they would call me if they had a cancellation. So they were the first to call me, and charged the highest ($150). We all went up there - there are stairs to a roof deck - and basically he held the chimney briefly for a moment seeing if he could shake it (reminding me of when you check a car by kicking the tires) and looked down it with his flashlight, and then up it from the LR chimney thimble with his cell phone. He said the chimney is fine and that we need a liner. So we started shopping for that. Since he is able to chimney inspect I assume he must be trained in what to look for.

The other chimney guy who comes next week to connect the stove and liners and install all I liked from when i first heard him speak on voice message. Polite and thorough. Then he talked to us for an hour and he is clearly quite knowledgeable and experienced and a good person. Also his reviews are good and well written by people who trust his work and have him come regularly. So if the first guys missed anything and there are any problems with clearances to combustibles, I am quite sure he will notice. We already sent him a bunch of pictures and measurements so he could plan his work without making a special extra trip.

The price of $150 for a full inspection tells me they are not doing a full inspection. A full inspection typically takes a minimum of an hour on site then a fair ammout of time writing the report. It sounds like no one has checked for clearances which could be a safety issue without an insulated liner. How is the thimble done? What type of wall does it pass through to get to the chimney? Was the chimney ever scanned for in used old thimbles that are covered up?

 

[Eliza10]

It is still a very clear and potentially deadly code violation. It is a very bad idea.

So, you are saying it is a code violation for the gas furnace system? Because it is to be covered with a metal lid, and the code for the wood stove calls for the hearth to be of either cement board and ceramic tile, or metal. So as far as the stove hearth code is concerned, that is covered, right?

My husband says that he can solve this problem right now by closing it off and in it's place, opening a return register in the basement. Well we are clearing out the basement now giving away, throwing away almost everything. It's got mold, which we are working on eradicating starting with getting rid of tons so it is more space than stuff down there (1909 cellar). We will make a table for the dehumidifier so it can run emptying into the wash sink so we don't need to babysit it and keep emptying the water bin.

I don't want to get health problems from breathing mold so I said absolutely no to opening the return register in the basement instead. When we bought and had this furnace installed a few years ago in I asked for NO return register in the basement, so they set it up that way.

But we think we need to make firm plans to move the register, after what everyone is saying here, rather than keep our (now to-be-temporary) invented system of covering/uncovering with a lid. My husband will create a (temporary) lid from sheet metal that fits in the opening for the stove. At the same time we will determine what we need to buy, and buy that, in order to move the return register elsewhere in the room, ten feet or more away from the wood stove, and do that project this winter.. So the register lid will be just our temporary fix. We have cement board pre-cut to fit the spot. and the tiler will pre-cut tile to fit that spot so we will be all ready to cover tile gap when we remove the register and put wood over the opening.

We really are trying to do everything according to code specifications and take all expert advice.