Easy remdy needed for register under wood stove floor.

[Eliza10]

Where are you located? Do you need to pull a building permit and have it inspected to put in a new stove? If yes, how could an inspector have missed the register?

I'm in MA. I replaced my insert in 2018. I got the permit myself.

My former chimney guy, who lives in he same town, argued with me and said that I absolutely didn't need a permit and inspection. Nice, huh?

Fee Schedule | marlboroughma

Construction CostsConstruction costs for all new buildings and structures will be determined from values as listed in the most current ICC Building Valuation Data Report. ICC Building Valuation Data is updated every six months.

www.marlborough-ma.gov

Chimney and Woodstove Safety

Tips on heating safely with wood and other solid fuels.

www.mass.gov

We are in western CT. We have not ruled not ruled out having it inspected by the town, and for now are focusing just on making sure we meet all the regulations. In that case we would be all set if we felt we needed a town inspection or were told we had to have one. My husband and I both seem to recall that when we mentioned this in our intensive hour-long conversation this week with the chimney guy about next week's installation that CT towns don't require inspections. We ahve to clarify that though.

 

[Eliza10]

The price of $150 for a full inspection tells me they are not doing a full inspection. A full inspection typically takes a minimum of an hour on site then a fair amount of time writing the report. It sounds like no one has checked for clearances which could be a safety issue without an insulated liner. How is the thimble done? What type of wall does it pass through to get to the chimney? Was the chimney ever scanned for in used old thimbles that are covered up?

Re: 1st level inspection: Well we can't remember who explained this to us but apparently if the first inspection fails then you have to go onto the other inspections. Our first inspection showed no trouble. So we didn't have to go through the next levels of inspection.

Clearances: I have no idea if the young guy silently checked for clearances. But the guy coming next week is thorough, and has been given many photos and measurements for his work next week. We will ask him about clearances, though. In fact I will ask him by email before he comes.

Thimbles: We have an old thimble open now that we were going to use for this stove, but after our conversation about every single specification for installation, we decided to have him install a new, lower thimble for the chimney and cover the old, higher thimble hole. Chimney guy will do all the brick/cement work, making it properly fire proof, and my husband will plaster over the mess and repaint. We apparently needed it lower since we have low (8") ceilings, I think both for clearance and to avoid soot on ceiling.

This simple 1909 colonial house was rough when my husband bought it. The floors upstairs were one layer of pine boards and the walls were plaster and lathe which my husband replaced with plasterboard most of upstairs and downstairs. There was the open thimble that we have now, but also a covered old thimble behind it in the kitchen (where our refrigerator is now) and a third thimble upstairs in the (small) master bedroom. My husband recalls that it was hard to get the plasterboard over those old thimbles because they rather bumped out, making it hard to put the plasterboard over it flatly. So when that first chimney guy was here, my husband explained about the two other thimbles but the guy did not seem to think it was a problem. So we did not think it one.

 

[bholler]

Re: 1st level inspection: Well we can't remember who explained this to us but apparently if the first inspection fails then you have to go onto the other inspections. Our first inspection showed no trouble. So we didn't have to go through the next levels of inspection.

Clearances: I have no idea if the young guy silently checked for clearances. But the guy coming next week is thorough, and has been given many photos and measurements for his work next week. We will ask him about clearances, though. In fact I will ask him by email before he comes.

Thimbles: We have an old thimble open now that we were going to use for this stove, but after our conversation about every single specification for installation, we decided to have him install a new, lower thimble for the chimney and cover the old, higher thimble hole. Chimney guy will do all the brick/cement work, making it properly fire proof, and my husband will plaster over the mess and repaint. We apparently needed it lower since we have low (8") ceilings, I think both for clearance and to avoid soot on ceiling.

This simple 1909 colonial house was rough when my husband bought it. The floors upstairs were one layer of pine boards and the walls were plaster and lathe which my husband replaced with plasterboard most of upstairs and downstairs. There was the open thimble that we have now, but also a covered old thimble behind it in the kitchen (where our refrigerator is now) and a third thimble upstairs in the (small) master bedroom. My husband recalls that it was hard to get the plasterboard over those old thimbles because they rather bumped out, making it hard to put the plasterboard over it flatly. So when that first chimney guy was here, my husband explained about the two other thimbles but the guy did not seem to think it was a problem. So we did not think it one.

Who ever told you that about a level one inspection didn't know what they were talking about. The 3 levels of inspection are done for completely different things. A level 1 is nowhere near sufficient for a new install.


I can guarantee that a 1909 chimney does not have proper clearances. It just doesn't happen. Which means you need insulation.

At this point you have the liner installed correct?

And what type of wall is the thimble passing through or does it go directly into the chimney?

 

[Hoytman]

Any chance of moving the return to air duct to a safer location and use that one as a fresh air supply for the stove?

 

[PaulOinMA]

... We have not ruled not ruled out having it inspected by the town ... now are focusing just on making sure we meet all the regulations ... if we felt we needed a town inspection or were told we had to have one ... the chimney guy about next week's installation that CT towns don't require inspections. We have to clarify that though ...

Just call town hall and ask Inspectional Services. Quick and easy to do.

 

[Eliza10]

Thank you for more replies. I will answer them soon. We decided to take your advice (my husband did) and remove the resister. He will move it (soon, before we start using the furnace) to another room, 10 feet away. We moved tiling forward another day for this. He is taking the register out now, and he cut the cement board to cover the whole area, for a solid hearth.

 

[begreen]

Good plan. Might as well get the mess done and over with. The hearth will look better too. If you can take some pictures as things progress and post them.

 

[Eliza10]

Who ever told you that about a level one inspection didn't know what they were talking about. The 3 levels of inspection are done for completely different things. A level 1 is nowhere near sufficient for a new install.


I can guarantee that a 1909 chimney does not have proper clearances. It just doesn't happen. Which means you need insulation.

At this point you have the liner installed correct?

And what type of wall is the thimble passing through or does it go directly into the chimney?

Well I am confused about this clearances thing because we paid $150 for inspection to see if we could get a stove, and that guy said yes it is okay for a stove, but we need a liner. Rockford certainly has chimney experience but they said the two liners are fine as is, without insulation (I haven't called back to ask them to explain more). Perhaps just because our chimney was too small for it with two in there? Pretty hard to reverse this decision now. Our chimney guy comes next week. He is very knowledgeable with long experience in this. We talked to him for a solid hour (not chit chat but all technical stuff) after sending pictures, info and measurements, and we took more measurements. So why would he not warn us about not having the pipe insulated? He would know.

My husband is now saying that with the insulation and netting on just the chimney liner for the stove (even if we didn't also have the hot water one), he thinks it could not get down the chimney.

As to combustibles clearance from top, here are some things my husband explained to me. It might not meet current code but these are usually grandfathered in. Everything done 100 years ago looks half-right compared to how things are done today, but they usually built chimneys very well, and they work. With an expert involved in the installation, and the liner, it will be a much safer chimney than it has been in 111 years. The chimney had three stoves going in it for likely decades with no problems! He says codes change every year or so. They don't normally expect you to bring old buildings to modern standards. [For example our steep stairs would now not be allowed to be built].

So this is not seeming like an issue to us (unlike the register issue).

We, like most folk, can't afford to rebuild our entire house and chimney in order to use a wood stove (especially a house that successfully heated by stove for decades).

Re: liner & thimble: The liners get installed next week when the chimney guy spends a day (or two) getting everything installed and connected properly. The stovepipe will go directly into the chimney it sits next to. A new hole will be opened and a new thimble installed, which is lower than the existing original thimble that we had first planned to use, which will get covered over expertly by the chimney guy.

 

[Sawset]

Some information from Rockford on insulated liners:

Benefits of Chimney Liner Insulation - Do I Need to Insulate my Liner?

Chimney liner insulation offers many benefits: improved system safety, increased efficiency & reduced maintenance cost. In a short time the insulation will pay for itself.

www.rockfordchimneysupply.com

And their clay tile breaker for rent used to break out the existing tiles to provide clearance for the insulation.

Chimney Clay Tile Breaker and Rods Kit Rental - Remove Clay Flue Tile - Rockford Chimney

A Rotary Tile Breaking Tool speeds up the process of removing clay flue tiles. Our clay tile breaker rental kits come complete with rods & tile breaker.

www.rockfordchimneysupply.com

 

[Eliza10]

Just call town hall and ask Inspectional Services. Quick and easy to do.

Okay we will probably end up doing that now. Did you remove a post or two? Because I was going to answer but then they were gone.

 

[Eliza10]

Some information from Rockford on insulated liners:

Benefits of Chimney Liner Insulation - Do I Need to Insulate my Liner?

Chimney liner insulation offers many benefits: improved system safety, increased efficiency & reduced maintenance cost. In a short time the insulation will pay for itself.

www.rockfordchimneysupply.com

And their clay tile breaker for rent used to break out the existing tiles to provide clearance for the insulation.

Chimney Clay Tile Breaker and Rods Kit Rental - Remove Clay Flue Tile - Rockford Chimney

A Rotary Tile Breaking Tool speeds up the process of removing clay flue tiles. Our clay tile breaker rental kits come complete with rods & tile breaker.

www.rockfordchimneysupply.com

Thanks, I am going to read that now. As to the tile breaker, there is no tile liner. I understand the tile liners were usually after 1940.

Yikes. I thought this whole thing couldn't possibly get any more complicated.

___________

Okay I read it. We have a center chimney. I wonder why it was not recommended that we get insulation just for the top of the chimney liner, where the chimney emerges from the roof?

I wonder if we should seek to get insulation for the top of that pipe today??

 

[begreen]

Most chimneys, not just old ones, have fudged or ignored clearances. An interior chimney is supposed to have 2" of clearance from any combustible and an exterior chimney, 1". The code requirement is for safety reasons. What is unknown is how many chimney fires have happened in an old chimney. If the chimney is touching wood as it goes up to the roof, those contact points may have gotten quite hot. Wood over time can pyrolyze with each high temp exposure. That doesn't mean it ignited. Instead, it's combustion temperature point gets lowered. When it finally gets low enough for an ordinary fire or the next chimney fire to get that area hot enough, it can ignite.

The code is put in place to protect against the unknowns (history, usage, wood contact) by placing a zero clearance barrier inside the chimney between the new liner and the wood. Is it totally necessary? In some cases no, there are many non-insulated liners out there. But it is a gamble in an older house. What is being discussed is strictly because we want to hear that now and in the future you are safe and enjoying wood heat without problems. The HW heater flue will not get nearly as hot as a woodstove flue will, so as long as it is in good condition it should be fine.

FWIW, when I removed our old 1924 fireplace I found two extra "thimbles" cobbled in and totally non-code compliant. One had charred wood up against it!. Old houses are full of history. Most of it is good, but sometimes the previous owners have left time bombs. Don't even get me started on a rewiring job done in the 1980s. HTH

 

[PaulOinMA]

Okay we will probably end up doing that now. Did you remove a post or two? Because I was going to answer but then they were gone.

Yes. I felt they really didn't add much to the discussion.

I first commented that pictures may help, as folks on here like pictures. Also, my search showed that a permit and inspection was required for the towns I saw. I was at a loss why doing something that may void homeowners' insurance was being considered. It wasn't my intent, but I was concerned that the way I worded it could be taken as a bit snarky. So, I deleted it.

The second was that I grew up in SW CT. [Begreen is from around Mohawk Mtn., if I recall correctly.]

It was also late at night, and I had a few beers. Don't post on forums after drinking.

 

[Eliza10]

Yes. I felt they really didn't add much to the discussion.

I first commented that pictures may help, as folks on here like pictures. Also, my search showed that a permit and inspection was required for the towns I saw. I was at a loss why doing something that may void homeowners' insurance was being considered.

The second was that I grew up in SW CT.

It looks like town inspection will come next. First I want to be sure we have done everything right, and I trust our long-experienced chimney guy to do all of that.

Yes, I will add pictures. We have pics of the chimney I can add here later. I already posted here, 3rd post a picture of the space the stove is going. The bump to the right out in the wall is the chimney. The chimney is plaster render over brick. It looks quite different from that picture now as the decorations are gone and cement board is on the wall to the ceiling behind that desk and also on the hearth in prep for the tiling that starts tomorrow.

I am central western CT. Last year I had a one year teaching position south of me. A colleague commuted in from Candlewood Lake. He moved his family there from the Bronx where he'd lived all his life! Candlewood must be a sort of Little Bronx. I grew up outside Rochester, NY and am getting to know CT since I moved here when I married my husband 6 years ago. I din't get out much most of those years as we were caring for my mom. I do enjoy learning about my adopted state. Yes, Fairfield County is lovely; I pick up a farm order from there most months. Huntington - - Shelton - that factory arson story! I looked it up, rather fascinating. (broken link removed) was behind it! Who'd have thunk it? And this guy, "Rev. Bubar", was his psychic advisor! Truly, the truth is stranger than fiction. But, yeah, I do need to focus on the chimney and stove.

I think I need to talk to the Rockford guy now. i don't' understand why we weren't told to insulate the top of the chimney liner.

 

[begreen]

I think I need to talk to the Rockford guy now. i don't' understand why we weren't told to insulate the top of the chimney liner.

I would guess cost. Usually, it is because someone wants to be competitive and gives a low-ball price to get the job. And there are many that just don't know code or know their job very well. It's easy to buy a brush set, vacuum and some tools and call oneself a sweep. That is not the same as someone who has a long time of study and a business reputation that they want to keep. We see this all the time and I have noted is often in our area too. It's the difference between a craftsman and a crapsman.

(PS: I used to live up in Cornwall and have even swum in Candlewood Lake a couple of times.)

 

[Eliza10]

You wrote:

...in place to protect against the unknowns (history, usage, wood contact) by placing a zero clearance barrier inside the chimney between the new liner and the wood. ...

Between the liner and the wood? Is this a typo? Do you mean, the liner is insulated to protect the chimney in case the chimney brick is close to the wood in the house - wood we can't see because it is behind plaster walls? (I am sure confused how a chimney inspector could determine this anyway, without bringing an ax to hack at all our walls to see what is underneath.)

 

[PaulOinMA]

I also posted last night that I grew up in Huntington. We moved there in 1965 from LI.

I also posted that my mom, 1923 - 2016, was from the Bronx. Just about all the rest of the folks she grew up with moved to Candlewood / Squantz Pond in the 1960s.

Mom had all the Yankees autographs: Ruth, Gehrig, Dickey, Lazzeri, all of them. I asked what happened to them when I was a kid collecting baseball cards in the late 1960s. She said that she threw them out when she was 14 or so. You saw them all the time. What's the big deal with having all their autographs?

 

[Eliza10]

Cornwall is gorgeous. I have been through it. Not far from Sharon where my husband learned building by helping a guy (an electrician he worked for) build his house, many years ago as a young man. Its where he learned all his electric stuff, too, and the building he did on our house. (Also his dad built their house when he was growing up so he always had an interest). We are in Thomaston.

 

[Eliza10]

I also posted last night that I grew up in Huntington. We moved there in 1965 from LI.

I also posted that my mom, 1923 - 2016, was from the Bronx. Just about all the rest of the folks she grew up with moved to Candlewood / Squantz Pond in the 1960s.

Mom had all the Yankees autographs: Ruth, Gehrig, Dickey, Lazzari, all of them. I asked what happened to them when I was a kid collecting baseball cards in the late 1960s. She said that she threw them out when she was 14 or so. You saw them all the time. What's the big deal with having all their autographs?

You could have been a very rich man! I also have an interesting "could have been rich" story, but I better keep focusing on this stove business as I want it in fast and right. Yes, Huntington I see is near/adjoined to Shelton? You would have been there during that fire so much remember that.

 

[PaulOinMA]

Huntington is part of Shelton. I was a junior in high school (Fairfield Prep) in 1975.

For the non-CT folks ... it was a huge domestic arson fire in a sponge rubber factory, formerly a B. F. Goodrich plant in Shelton, CT.

 

[brenndatomu]

You wrote:



Between the liner and the wood? Is this a typo? Do you mean, the liner is insulated to protect the chimney in case the chimney brick is close to the wood in the house - wood we can't see because it is behind plaster walls? (I am sure confused how a chimney inspector could determine this anyway, without bringing an ax to hack at all our walls to see what is underneath.)

Exactly...often times the black charred wood from improper clearances (and an "almost" fire) are only found when the walls are torn apart for major remodel.
Just FYI, if the chimney has no clay liner (just brick?) and is truly too small to get a 6" liner with insulation it, you may be able to downsize the liner to 5" or 5.5" depending on your stove and how tall the chimney is (probably tall since its central)...two other possible options, preinsulated liner is sometimes a bit smaller OD, and much tougher if it needs to be "roughhoused" in a bit...last idea, 1/4" insulation blanket instead of the normal 1/2"? Better than none...probably still not "to code" though?
Oh, and insulate the whole liner, not just the top....its needed to assure insulation from non code compliant issues the whole way up.

As far as your husbands comment that the chimney has worked for the last 111 years...yeah, but go back and read up on pyrolysis...the temp that it will catch on fire at just keeps getting lower, and lower, and lower, until POOF, FIRE...but it was fine all those years...until it wasn't.
Its kinda like loading up a huge load of firewood on the truck...when its new it will probably take an overload fine...do that when its 30 years old and super rusty...uh oh.

 

[bholler]

Well I am confused about this clearances thing because we paid $150 for inspection to see if we could get a stove, and that guy said yes it is okay for a stove, but we need a liner. Rockford certainly has chimney experience but they said the two liners are fine as is, without insulation (I haven't called back to ask them to explain more). Perhaps just because our chimney was too small for it with two in there? Pretty hard to reverse this decision now. Our chimney guy comes next week. He is very knowledgeable with long experience in this. We talked to him for a solid hour (not chit chat but all technical stuff) after sending pictures, info and measurements, and we took more measurements. So why would he not warn us about not having the pipe insulated? He would know.

My husband is now saying that with the insulation and netting on just the chimney liner for the stove (even if we didn't also have the hot water one), he thinks it could not get down the chimney.

As to combustibles clearance from top, here are some things my husband explained to me. It might not meet current code but these are usually grandfathered in. Everything done 100 years ago looks half-right compared to how things are done today, but they usually built chimneys very well, and they work. With an expert involved in the installation, and the liner, it will be a much safer chimney than it has been in 111 years. The chimney had three stoves going in it for likely decades with no problems! He says codes change every year or so. They don't normally expect you to bring old buildings to modern standards. [For example our steep stairs would now not be allowed to be built].

So this is not seeming like an issue to us (unlike the register issue).

We, like most folk, can't afford to rebuild our entire house and chimney in order to use a wood stove (especially a house that successfully heated by stove for decades).

Re: liner & thimble: The liners get installed next week when the chimney guy spends a day (or two) getting everything installed and connected properly. The stovepipe will go directly into the chimney it sits next to. A new hole will be opened and a new thimble installed, which is lower than the existing original thimble that we had first planned to use, which will get covered over expertly by the chimney guy.

The inspection you described was at best a level one inspection. They really should have run a camera through the chimney to check for old covered thimbles. If they said it needs a liner they may very well have been assuming that liner would be insulated. And in that case the clearances don't matter. Or they may just not know or care about it. I don't know.

As far as rockford goes they are in the business of selling liners. And they can sell more if they don't worry about insulation. I have had this discussion directly with them and they said we are simply a retailer. It is not our responsibility to teach our customers about codes.

With regards to being grandfathered in that is true if you are dealing with an existing install. With a new install you are responsible to bring it up to code. Yes it will be safer with a liner in it than without. But not as safe as it should be. And we just don't know how safe or unsafe it is. Even with a thorough inspection there are areas you just can't see. I have seen floor joists set into chimneys for support that go all the way into the chimney. That is why we insulate absolutely every liner we install.


Is the chimney exposed brick outside where the pipe is going in? Plaster directly on the brick? Or covered in something else?

 

[bholler]

You wrote:



Between the liner and the wood? Is this a typo? Do you mean, the liner is insulated to protect the chimney in case the chimney brick is close to the wood in the house - wood we can't see because it is behind plaster walls? (I am sure confused how a chimney inspector could determine this anyway, without bringing an ax to hack at all our walls to see what is underneath.)

The fact is in most cases you can't determine that for the whole chimney. Which is why we insulate every liner and I recommend the same here.

 

[begreen]

You wrote:



Between the liner and the wood? Is this a typo? Do you mean, the liner is insulated to protect the chimney in case the chimney brick is close to the wood in the house - wood we can't see because it is behind plaster walls? (I am sure confused how a chimney inspector could determine this anyway, without bringing an ax to hack at all our walls to see what is underneath.)

Between the liner and the chimney brick which is in direct contact with the wood. The point of the insulation is to reduce this risk going forward to zero.

 

[PaulOinMA]

... You could have been a very rich man! I also have an interesting "could have been rich" story ...

Ugh. My sister and dad (1919 - 2010) were talking in the late 2000s. I had no idea what they were talking about.

Dad bought two "very nice pieces of property", his description, in the village of Amagansett, Long Island in the 1950s when we lived in Bethpage (Plainedge). Sold them after we moved to Huntington in 1965. Double ugh.