England 30-NC

[Lv2trav]

Hi everyone. This is my second season in my new home that came with an England 30-NCP. Last year I had a great deal of back-puffing, which was slightly better with kiln or well seasoned wood, but that didn't rectify the issue. I spent a lot on a cord of kiln dried wood hoping it would be the answer, but alas it is not.

The issue I am having at the moment is with the air inlet control. I see no difference in the fire if it is fully open or closed. I read other posts on the forum about the 30-NCP and people commented that when closed it virtually put their fire out, which is not the case with mine. It sounds like something is sliding open and closed when I pull the handle, but it does nothing. Any ideas why this is? It is very difficult to prevent over firing when you cannot control the fire.

Can the air inlet control and back-puffing be related issues, or are the separate issues?

Thanks in advance for the advice!

 

[EatenByLimestone]

What's your chimney and flue system like?

 

[Lv2trav]

I do not know the internal measurements of the flue, but it is a clay flue with a brick chimney that runs on the exterior of the home. It is a rather tall chimney, with the stove being on the main floor, and two floors above.

 

[begreen]

Is there a 6" stainless liner in the chimney or is the stove vented directly into a clay tile liner? if clay tile liner, what are the inside dimensions? Is there a key damper on the stove pipe? With this height chimney, it will be necessary. Another thing that will help is closing off the small boost air inlets. These are located in the underside, front corners behind the legs. Small magnets or aluminum foil can be used.

Note that the stove will not shut off all flame with the air closed. As the air is closed down a vacuum is created in the firebox that pulls air thru the secondary tubes. That heats up the firebox and reduces waste heat going up the flue.

Do you have thermometers on the stove and/or the stove pipe? If so, what temperature(s) are you seeing?

 

[Lv2trav]

I believe it is directly vented into a clay liner, but I don't have the dimensions. I am getting is cleaned and inspected next month and will ask them that. There is a key damper on the double wall stove pipe that does slow the flames (most of the time, a few times there was no controlling the fire).

If I put one or two medium size kiln dried logs in (after fire is established) it will get up to 500-600 and the wood will last about 45 minutes with the key damper closed 60-70%. If I put more than two logs in, it can easily climb over 700 and the key damper doesn't slow it down.

 

[neverstop]

I believe it is directly vented into a clay liner, but I don't have the dimensions. I am getting is cleaned and inspected next month and will ask them that. There is a key damper on the double wall stove pipe that does slow the flames (most of the time, a few times there was no controlling the fire).

If I put one or two medium size kiln dried logs in (after fire is established) it will get up to 500-600 and the wood will last about 45 minutes with the key damper closed 60-70%. If I put more than two logs in, it can easily climb over 700 and the key damper doesn't slow it down.

Were you able to control the temperature when you weren't using kiln dried wood? I know my stove manual says explicitly to not burn kiln dried wood. I assume because it should burn hotter and quicker due to the lack of water you need to burn off compared to seasoned wood.

During back-puffing events did you have the air controls at their lowest setting?

 

[begreen]

I believe it is directly vented into a clay liner, but I don't have the dimensions. I am getting is cleaned and inspected next month and will ask them that. There is a key damper on the double wall stove pipe that does slow the flames (most of the time, a few times there was no controlling the fire).

If I put one or two medium size kiln dried logs in (after fire is established) it will get up to 500-600 and the wood will last about 45 minutes with the key damper closed 60-70%. If I put more than two logs in, it can easily climb over 700 and the key damper doesn't slow it down.

This sounds like it could be an issue of timing. The air needs to be closed down the air as quickly as possible without smothering the fire. The idea is to slow down the outgassing of combustibles from the wood. If the fire gets too hot then it is hard to do this and the train has already left the station.

Try this. As soon as the wood has just started burning well, close the air 50% or until the flames get lazy, but not out. Wait 5-10 minutes for the flames to regain strength then close down the air to 25% or until the flames get lazy again. If they don't get lazy, close the key damper all the way. Wait 5 or so minutes then close down the air all the way or until the flames are lazier and secondary combustion has become robust.

Note that 650-700º on the stovetop is fairly normal for this stove. Over 800º is more concerning.

Also, the fewer air gaps between the splits the better. How is the wood being loaded? E/W, N/S, crisscrossed, or lincoln log style?

 

[SpaceBus]

I also suspect your wood isn't as dry as the stove really calls for.

 

[Highbeam]

Just to verify, the air control on front pushed all the way in is fully closed.

My NC30 is extremely controllable and snuffable on a 19 foot all vertical 6" metal chimney. I try to run it hot though, shooting for 700 degree stove top temperatures as much as possible.

The NC30 has easy access to the secondary air inlet on the back as well. It can be blocked off fully or partially with metal tape or a magnet.

 

[Lv2trav]

Thank you all for the responses!

Neverstop - The back-puffing was terrible with the "seasoned" wood I purchased last year, which lead to the kiln dried this year as it isn't as bad with the dry wood. Also, I always open the air inlet and key damper prior to loading wood, open it an inch or two and wait, and then slowly open the door.

Begreen - I agree that there is a point where I lose control, and you may be right on the timing issue. Tonight, I have been able to keep the fire at 550-600 loading one piece of wood and keeping the air inlet 100% closed and the key damper 60-70% closed.

Can you explain your process with more specifics on air inlet vs key damper. When you say "close the air" do you mean the air inlet? If I put one piece in I just toss it N/S. If two, I usually crisscross.

I ran into an issue earlier today when I had the air inlet open, but 100% closed the key damper. Smoke started to seep out of the top of the stove where the double wall pipe connects to the stovetop. This was within one hour of starting the fire. Not sure why this happened?

I cannot reach secondary combustion very often, and never with one or two pieces of wood. Should I load more? More than one/two makes it hard for me to control temp.

What do I do at night when I want to go to sleep, but put more wood in for overnight? The last few nights when I put 4 pieces in (two N/S and two E/W) it got very hot, very quickly and I was up making sure it didn't get too hot (stress).

Spacebus - I don't know if I can get more dry than kiln dried?

Highbeam - Yes, when I read the manual it said it is open when the air inlet is pulled out, and closed when pushed in. I do not know anything about the secondary air inlets, or how to use them.

I appreciate the advice as I hate to throw money at a liner if I don't need one (read they are at least $2k)!

 

[MAD MARK]

You say it directly vents into the clay liner, but from double wall?? Guessing it goes through a thimble then?

If so, its possible you do in fact have a full metal liner and at ~26' that might explain the uncontrollable fire using the air control. As suggested by Highbeam, can put some magnets on the rear rectangle secondary air inlet to slow that down as well.

Still doesn't explain the back puffing, which is usually a lack of draft.

When reloading open the air control the whole way for about a minute then crack the door for about 30 seconds to equalize pressures before opening the door the whole way.

 

[Lv2trav]

Mad Mark - Yes, there is a thimble. When they changed the single wall to double wall I saw metal going into the chimney, but it looked like clay at the end of the horizontal run.

I do follow your protocol for opening the door. That said, I was at my brothers house in VT for Thanksgiving and he has a wood stove. I could open his up, without any protocol, and no smoke came into the room. Also, he could throw one piece in and I could see the secondary combustion and his wood burned much slower than mine. If I need an insulated metal liner (I am pretty sure I don't have one) I will put it in if it will end the back-puffing. I don't see propane prices going down, so I am prepared to get the stove where it needs to be. Appreciate you all helping me diagnose!

 

[SpaceBus]

"Kiln dried" doesn't mean much. You need to have the wood cut, split, and stacked for one to two years before burning as the stove will want firewood with less than 20% moisture content. In most climates most softwoods and some hardwoods will dry to less than 20% water in a year or so, but oak and maple usually take two years, maybe even more depending on climate.

Generally speaking bought firewood is not dry enough for modern clean burning stoves.

 

[MAD MARK]

My back puffing stopped this year after I added another 3 foot of chimney onto my 11 foot chimney. I am still under the recommendation of 15' though but does burn quite different now.

Have you confirmed it has the correct ceramic boards needed for secondary burn?

 

[neverstop]

Thank you all for the responses!

Neverstop - The back-puffing was terrible with the "seasoned" wood I purchased last year, which lead to the kiln dried this year as it isn't as bad with the dry wood. Also, I always open the air inlet and key damper prior to loading wood, open it an inch or two and wait, and then slowly open the door.

Begreen - I agree that there is a point where I lose control, and you may be right on the timing issue. Tonight, I have been able to keep the fire at 550-600 loading one piece of wood and keeping the air inlet 100% closed and the key damper 60-70% closed.

Can you explain your process with more specifics on air inlet vs key damper. When you say "close the air" do you mean the air inlet? If I put one piece in I just toss it N/S. If two, I usually crisscross.

I ran into an issue earlier today when I had the air inlet open, but 100% closed the key damper. Smoke started to seep out of the top of the stove where the double wall pipe connects to the stovetop. This was within one hour of starting the fire. Not sure why this happened?

I cannot reach secondary combustion very often, and never with one or two pieces of wood. Should I load more? More than one/two makes it hard for me to control temp.

What do I do at night when I want to go to sleep, but put more wood in for overnight? The last few nights when I put 4 pieces in (two N/S and two E/W) it got very hot, very quickly and I was up making sure it didn't get too hot (stress).

Spacebus - I don't know if I can get more dry than kiln dried?

Highbeam - Yes, when I read the manual it said it is open when the air inlet is pulled out, and closed when pushed in. I do not know anything about the secondary air inlets, or how to use them.

I appreciate the advice as I hate to throw money at a liner if I don't need one (read they are at least $2k)!

Are there flames when the stove back puffs?

 

[begreen]

I suspect the backpuffing may be from too cautious operation. With that tall chimney the draft must be strong.

Can you explain your process with more specifics on air inlet vs key damper. When you say "close the air" do you mean the air inlet? If I put one piece in I just toss it N/S. If two, I usually crisscross.

Yes, close the air refers to the air control on the stove. Crisscrossed wood is going to burn faster. You want to minimize the air gaps between the splits to slow down the burn. Load the stove with the splits parallel to each other. Next load, try all E/W packed tightly.

 

[NickW]

I have the Summers Heat 50-SNC30, basically the same thing as yours. With about 20' of total vertical between double wall stovepipe and insulated liner it drafts really well when firing up and cruising, but I lose draft in the coaling phase pretty drastically; so I get some smoke roll out on reloads if I wait too long. I believe it's because of the amount of horizontal run I have.

I load all n/s, packed as tightly as possible to the top of the bricks with the tunnel of love in front of the doghouse. I get secondaries starting and shut the door, start shutting down the air as soon as everything is charred from full open, then half open, then a quarter open. From there it depends... if it's packed full I usually have to go down to 1/8 open or fully closed to slow it down. After an hour or two and the temps start coming down I'll open it back up to 1/4 open.

I prefer to keep stt under 700 and to cruise at 550-600. When it creeps down to 500 is when I open it back up a little.

NC30's can kick out a lot of heat and chew through a ton of wood, but if you can get your timing down with good wood you can get 8-10 hour cycles.

There have been a lot of good suggestions thrown out already. My guess is that you are fighting a multiple front battle. Chimney height may be a factor, but check the mc on a fresh split at room temperature. I bought a cheap moisture meter at a big box store for $15. It was an eye opener. Higher mc wood can burn faster than lower mc wood because you have to keep the air open more to keep it burning, but like @begreen said once the train has left the station... I learned my first year that there is a very fine line between overfire and snuffing it out with wet wood. It is interesting that you can't kill it shutting the air all the way. Only when I let mine get really roaring and I am slow to shut it down will it keep going with the air shut all the way...

 

[Highbeam]

Tunnel of love is a real good thing on this stove.

 

[Lv2trav]

Good morning,

Begreen, I will try your method of close together and E/W today. As I said, the air inlet control does nothing so I have kept it 100% closed and have been closing the key damper, which definitely makes a difference. As I mentioned earlier, when I close the key damper 90-100% smoke comes out at the connection between the stove and double wall pipe. Is this normal?

Madmark - Yes, I bought new ones with the correct model number. Strange that you mentioned the height as one of the chimney sweeps I got a quote from for a cap said the top of the chimney is not high enough above the roof line. The second quote said it was fine and not causing the issue. I hate to add a few feet and it doesn't help, but your comment makes me think it may?

Neverstop - Backpuffing does occur with flames, but it is far less, even zero at times, if fire is really going. I find I have to keep the fire at 500+ to keep it from backpuffing, which means I can't go more than 30-40 minutes without adding wood.

 

[SpaceBus]

Good morning,

Begreen, I will try your method of close together and E/W today. As I said, the air inlet control does nothing so I have kept it 100% closed and have been closing the key damper, which definitely makes a difference. As I mentioned earlier, when I close the key damper 90-100% smoke comes out at the connection between the stove and double wall pipe. Is this normal?

Madmark - Yes, I bought new ones with the correct model number. Strange that you mentioned the height as one of the chimney sweeps I got a quote from for a cap said the top of the chimney is not high enough above the roof like. The second quote said it was fine and not causing the issue. I hate to add a few feet and it doesn't help, but your comment makes me think it may?

Neverstop - Backpuffing does occur with flames, but it is far less, even zero at times, if fire is really going. I find I have to keep the fire at 500+ to keep it from backpuffing, which means I can't go more than 30-40 minutes without adding wood.

If you are struggling to keep the fire at 500+ at the hottest point on the cook top and your fires are short, I think your wood is not dry enough. Those are all classic wet wood symptoms.

 

[armanidog]

"As I mentioned earlier, when I close the key damper 90-100% smoke comes out at the connection between the stove and double wall pipe. Is this normal?"
That is not right. Even if you completely block a flue you should never have smoke coming out of a connection. I bet the flue is sucking in air through that connection.

 

[SpaceBus]

"As I mentioned earlier, when I close the key damper 90-100% smoke comes out at the connection between the stove and double wall pipe. Is this normal?"
That is not right. Even if you completely block a flue you should never have smoke coming out of a connection. I bet the flue is sucking in air through that connection.

Those joints would be drawing air in, until the draft slows down enough to reverse into the house. This has happened to me when trying to get my cookstove burning with wood I thought was dry enough.

 

[Lv2trav]

If you are struggling to keep the fire at 500+ at the hottest point on the cook top and your fires are short, I think your wood is not dry enough. Those are all classic wet wood symptoms.

Hi Spacebus. Not struggling to keep the fire going at all. It is just, when under 450-500 degrees, smoke will billow out the top when I open the door, slowly and wait. I just metered the new kiln dry wood I bought on multiple pieces, plus a freshly split piece. Read between 10-15%.

Armanidog - Why would that happen, and how do I fix it? As I mentioned earlier, I have someone coming to clean the flue (was cleaned less than a year ago) and the stove needs to be cold so they can clean. I can explain the issues to them, but they won't be able to see them.

 

[armanidog]

Hi Spacebus. Not struggling to keep the fire going at all. It is just, when under 450-500 degrees, smoke will billow out the top when I open the door, slowly and wait. I just metered the new kiln dry wood I bought on multiple pieces, plus a freshly split piece. Read between 10-15%.

Armanidog - Why would that happen, and how do I fix it? As I mentioned earlier, I have someone coming to clean the flue (was cleaned less than a year ago) and the stove needs to be cold so they can clean. I can explain the issues to them, but they won't be able to see them.

The stove flue connections are not tight enough. Does the joint where the stove connects to the double wall pipe have three screws holding it together or does it lock together in some way? Would you be able to post a photo of the connection?

 

[moresnow]

Hi Spacebus. Not struggling to keep the fire going at all. It is just, when under 450-500 degrees, smoke will billow out the top when I open the door, slowly and wait. I just metered the new kiln dry wood I bought on multiple pieces, plus a freshly split piece. Read between 10-15%.

Armanidog - Why would that happen, and how do I fix it? As I mentioned earlier, I have someone coming to clean the flue (was cleaned less than a year ago) and the stove needs to be cold so they can clean. I can explain the issues to them, but they won't be able to see them.

Where are the pics of the install? Can you add a few? It may help out for everyone to see what your stove/connector pipe/chimney configuration actually is. Good luck.