Enviro 1700 insert install via direct connect

[40plymouth]

Hello, first post here, but been lurking and searching past posts for awhile. Great site.

After years of heating our home (2500 sq. ft.) with my old Federal Airtight 264, I decided to replace it this year, and after many hours of research, decided on an Enviro Kodiak 1700 insert, which I put money down on today and ordered. Asked dealer to do install. I was expecting them to say an insulated liner would be required (my flue is 13x13 IIRC) as other dealers have suggested, but they insisted a direct-connect was all that was required and would be OK. I asked about periodic cleaning, as I thought the stove would have to be reinstalled each time so as to permit debris removal, and they said that was not required.

Please Excuse this newbie question I'm sure, but am I missing something here, or am I getting "wrong advices".

Obviously the direct connect is much cheaper, but I want it done right. The Federal Airtight was installed via direct connect. I've had sweeps and inspectors out on several occasions, and none of them ever ran a brush. I was told each time that there was nothing to brush, just a little fine ash, and just keep burning the stove the same way as I had been. I ran it 24/7. Location No. Virginia.

 

[begreen]

The salesperson is ignorant. Go for a full insulated liner. Draft will be poor and the increase in flue area is above what is allowed for the stove. It must have a liner, 6" all the way to draft properly. The dealer doesn't have to put up with problems that come afterward with gunky direct connect install so it will be up to you to establish requirements for your flue. If this is an exterior wall chimney then I would also ask them to install an insulated block-off plate at the damper. This will nicely improve heat output of the insert.

PS: In an install you can go up to about 2X the flue area and still maintain decent draft. A direct connect to a 13x13 (say 12" x 12" ID) pipe is going up 5x in cross-section. That is a setup for failure.

 

[NoGoodAtScreenNames]

I installed an Enviro Boston 1700 insert last year. The enviro manuals say you can do it if it's allowed by code but they also recommend against it.

http://enviro.com/custom_content/docs/manuals/C-14296 1200 & 1700 Kodiak FS Owners Manual.pdf

I have a tall chimney and I had a lot of downdraft with the open fireplace before I had the insert. With the liner the draft was very good. My sweep was surprised it looked so clean at the bottom and I burned pretty marginal wood. There was some stuff at the top worth cleaning but I'm sure the liner helped a lot.

 

[stovelark]

Enviros are wonderful burning stoves, but need to be installed correctly. They need the full length liner, properly ran and installed. They'll work better, be easier to clean and the owners' will be nice and warm.

 

[ChadD]

Go with full liner and block off plate at damper.

 

[40plymouth]

Thanks all, will try and change the method of installation. Is it enough just to specify a full insulated liner w/block-off plate(s) and the installer will know what is meant, or do I need to somehow be more specific about types/brands of liners?

Thanks again.

 

[begreen]

When selling a stove it's not untypical for the salesperson to lowball the installation costs. If they make the installation too high they may miss out on the sale or the addition of options like enameling. To soften sticker shock they often quote the lowest priced installation. That quote probably will be for a thin, light gauge flex liner without insulation or block off plate. I've found this to be more typical of large volume shops around here. It's up to you to decide and tell the salesperson exactly what you want. If you want a first-class flue system it will cost more, but it will last longer and perform better.

If the goal is to get a heavy-duty, fully insulated liner with an insulated block-off plate then you might want to meet with the installation mgr. first and discuss options. A good shop should be able to offer you this alternative without problem.

 

[40plymouth]

Thanks. Just took some measurements....looks like I'll need about 33 feet of liner.....that can't be cheap!

 

[bholler]

Thanks. Just took some measurements....looks like I'll need about 33 feet of liner.....that can't be cheap!

No it wont be but like others have said direct connect is still allowed by code but it is far from the best performance or safety option. And it only meets code if your existing fireplace meets code completely (which is pretty rare)

 

[begreen]

Thanks. Just took some measurements....looks like I'll need about 33 feet of liner.....that can't be cheap!

Nope. And I'll bet that is why you got a quote for the cheapest option, even if not up to code.

 

[Fastdonzi]

It is Expensive, However it will pay off in Stove performance. 15 yrs ago when I bought my Buck 27000 the Guy I bought from just had it slid in a Fireplace not hooked to anything with a front shroud. I'd never seen anything like it.... He said it (stove) didn't work very well. I got it home and installed 25' of 8" stainless liner and when I open the doors it sounds like the intake of a Jet engine, Sucks like Mad... Totally worth the Cost....

 

[40plymouth]

Well, dealer wants $1600 to install liner, and because its so heavy, wants $1000 a day for a lift. This is about 30' of liner, which puts install price at about $6400, assuming only one day use of lift :-(

 

[Fastdonzi]

Can you stand on the top of the chimney?? I pulled mine up from the bottom, Then two guys slid the stove in and I lowered the pipe back down. that was the hardest part, and it wasn't that hard... some people are out to make a killing, Not a Living...

 

[40plymouth]

Not comfortable that high up. Canceled this install. A crane should no be required for a liner install. Have a "reputable" installer coming next week for an on sight visit, but they don't sell Enviro. Might be installing a Quadrafire 5100i instead.......

 

[begreen]

One option is to buy the stove and then have a certified sweep or installer put it in.
www.csia.org
(broken link removed to http://nficertified.org/pages_consumers/consumers-1.cfm)

 

[mellow]

Post a picture of your roof/chimney, curious to see if there is more to the story.

 

[bholler]

Post a picture of your roof/chimney, curious to see if there is more to the story.

I agree totally it is very rare to need a lift to install a liner and we install 30'+ liners all the time with no lift. We even use heavy wall liners so they weigh allot. But there have been a few that required a lift for one reason or another. So lets see a pic so we can let you know if we see any reason.

 

[40plymouth]

There is nothing unusual. This installer never saw the house, he just didn't want to install a liner. He just kept repeating "its not required".

 

[begreen]

Doesn't look like a lift would be required for that.

 

[bholler]

Yeah no lift for that. It does stick up a bit so i would set up a roof platform but that is no big deal at all. Like others have said you can always just buy the stove and have it installed by a sweep.