EPA taking another look at standards

[cycloxer]

Good points. I think the problem the stove manufacturers are dealing with is two sided. On the one hand they want to extract as much heat as they can out of the wood. On the other hand, they are required to meet EPA regulations. This is a similar problem to what the car manufacturers have to deal with in their engine design balancing power output with emmissions requirements.

I understand your point of using refractory material to line the firebox to reflect the heat. Yes, this helps keep the center of the stove hotter and helps to burn clean. However, you have to be careful here because if you insulate too much all of the heat will exhaust up the flue and nothing will heat up the exterior surfaces of the radiant designed stoves. How much do you need? I don't know, I am not a stove designer, but I imagine the best companies are using a combination of thermal modeling and testing to evaluate new designs. The design needs to able to transfer the heat into the room and not up the chimney.

I am not saying one design is any better than another. They all have their pros and cons. I didn't buy my stove because I thought it was the best or most efficient design. Actually, my reasons for selecting it were (in order) quality, reliability, durability, resale value. (Notice, efficiency of the design was not even a consideration as I don't feel any design currently on the market is significantly superior.) The cons of using only fire brick is that you lose durability and aesthetics. Jotul has chosen to use cast iron panels partially for protection. It makes a more durable stove albeit at a cost.

99% of stove manufacturers are reactionary in their designs. The EPA forced them to change. These space heaters are all still really low technology. I laugh everytime I read an article about a high-tech modern EPA stove. What's high tech? I agree with you that there is plenty of room to grow these designs. 75% efficiency is not impressive. A condensing NG boiler runs at 90-95% and burns so clean you can practically vent into your house. We also have a 250 year supply of NG in our own country, but that is a different issue.

I cringe everytime somebody claims burning wood is clean and carbon neutral. How do they figure? First off you have a living tree acting as a filter for the environment and you cut it down. Great, that makes a lot of sense. Let's cut down all the forests in the world with 2 stroke chainsaws burning oil, move the wood in diesel trucks, and then process the wood with an engine powered splitter. Then let's burn that 'green' fuel in our 'clean' stoves. See what that does to our air quality. Okay, I am exagerating, but you see my point. People burn wood because it is cheaper than burning oil and the fuel is readily available in our country, but it is most definitely not sparkly green, clean, or carbon neutral.

...so to bring this post back on topic, it is for these reasons that the EPA will continue to scrutinize our cough, cough 'clean' wood burners and continue to press manufacturers to develop better solutions. The auto industry didn't add cats and smog pumps to their cars voluntarily either. I like burning wood as much as the next guy, but you have to be honest about its true impact on the environment.

 

[Todd]

With a cat stove you can only engage the cat when it is at the proper operating temperature and it starts wearing out and losing efficiency from day 1.

Not true. Cats don't start to lose their efficiency til the end of their life according to Applied Ceramics.

 

[cycloxer]

If you're burning cordwood, though, how can any testing agency or test protocol ensure consistency from one batch, one stove, one test site, one year, to the next?

Yeah I understand that. My point was that when the stoves are put into actual use they aren't burning as clean nor running as efficient. However, an NG or oil burner will operate at spec all time (provided it is properly cleaned and maintained) as there is no variation in the fuel.

 

[cycloxer]

Not true. Cats don't start to lose their efficiency til the end of their life according to Applied Ceramics.

No, what they do is they over-size the cat so that it has more catalyst than what is required for complete combustion early in its life, but I can assure you that it starts wearing out from day one. The catalyst gets plugged and coated and there is no way to fix this save replacing the whole component. How do you know when the cat is at the end of its life? There is also virtually no way to tell at what efficiency your cat is running unless you run an O2 sensor before and after and take measurements. Oh yeah, the auto industry already does this. The sensors are hooked up to an ECU and you can measure exactly how efficiently your cat is operating. When the efficiency drops below a certain level it starts recording faults. Once it reaches a threshold it trips your CE light and you have to replace the cat in order to meet emmissions requirements. I've measured this myself on my own cars via the OBD2 port. With a wood stove you have no sensors so there is no way to know until your cat is completely crapped out.

 

[raybonz]

I sat here and read these interesting stories about efficient stoves and I don't get how these newer stoves are less polluting than my 20+ yr. old stove with a cat.. In fact this stove is more efficient and cleaner burning than many of these new wonder stoves.. I will take the cast iron plates over firebrick any day of the week! My plates have been banged by many a chunk of oak and they are as good today as the the day I got this stove.. I've brought up the durability issue of these new fragile materials that are being used for the sake of "efficiency" and fail to see the merit of this sort of thinking.. During the heart of wood heating season this stove runs 24/7 so start up pollution is not a factor and when I do start a fire I tend to use the top down method.. When I go outside during an extended run there is no smoke coming from my chimney so how do you improve upon this? I do acknowledge some manufacturers understand durability and I tip my hat to those who take the time to build things that last.. I also agree that cats last a good 6+ years if they are not abused and they also work well when less heat is required and secondary burn stoves fail miserably in this situation.. The idea of adding computer controls etc. just makes us reliant upon the power company which will dump us into the pellet burning crowd.. In these times of complexity I find it comforting knowing that simplicity still gets the job done..

Ray

 

[Todd]

Not true. Cats don't start to lose their efficiency til the end of their life according to Applied Ceramics.

No, what they do is they over-size the cat so that it has more catalyst than what is required for complete combustion early in its life, but I can assure you that it starts wearing out from day one. The catalyst gets plugged and coated and there is no way to fix this save replacing the whole component. How do you know when the cat is at the end of its life? There is also virtually no way to tell at what efficiency your cat is running unless you run an O2 sensor before and after and take measurements. Oh yeah, the auto industry already does this. The sensors are hooked up to an ECU and you can measure exactly how efficiently your cat is operating. When the efficiency drops below a certain level it starts recording faults. Once it reaches a threshold it trips your CE light and you have to replace the cat in order to meet emmissions requirements. I've measured this myself on my own cars via the OBD2 port. With a wood stove you have no sensors so there is no way to know until your cat is completely crapped out.

I don't need any fancy schmancy sensors to tell me when my cat is failing, I just look at my stove temps and check for smoke. What do you mean there's no way to fix a plugged or coated catalyst? You simply brush or vacuum the cat about every cord of wood or so, you don't need to replace it. If the cat was abused with wet wood and seriously clogged it can still be saved by a 50/50 vinegar water soak. You make it sound like after day one a cat stove is no better than an old smoke dragon.

 

[Todd]

cycloxer,

"Burn a full load of cord wood in a modern stove and then measure the real world efficiency and grams of particulates over the entire burn cycle and publish those #‘s. "

Measuring efficiency and grams of particulates is relatively easy. If you're burning cordwood, though, how can any testing agency or test protocol ensure consistency from one batch, one stove, one test site, one year, to the next? Surely that's the reason they use dimensional lumber: there's some consistency. And to measure efficiency and particulates, how do you do that except in a lab? Does every make and model of stove have to be shipped to my house for testing?

Seems to me, the tests don't need to be perfect, just consistent and repeatable.

They have measured GPH in real world tests.

http://www.woodheat.org/technology/EPAstovereport.htm

 

[raybonz]

Not true. Cats don't start to lose their efficiency til the end of their life according to Applied Ceramics.

No, what they do is they over-size the cat so that it has more catalyst than what is required for complete combustion early in its life, but I can assure you that it starts wearing out from day one. The catalyst gets plugged and coated and there is no way to fix this save replacing the whole component. How do you know when the cat is at the end of its life? There is also virtually no way to tell at what efficiency your cat is running unless you run an O2 sensor before and after and take measurements. Oh yeah, the auto industry already does this. The sensors are hooked up to an ECU and you can measure exactly how efficiently your cat is operating. When the efficiency drops below a certain level it starts recording faults. Once it reaches a threshold it trips your CE light and you have to replace the cat in order to meet emmissions requirements. I've measured this myself on my own cars via the OBD2 port. With a wood stove you have no sensors so there is no way to know until your cat is completely crapped out.

I don't need any fancy schmancy sensors to tell me when my cat is failing, I just look at my stove temps and check for smoke. What do you mean there's no way to fix a plugged or coated catalyst? You simply brush or vacuum the cat about every cord of wood or so, you don't need to replace it. If the cat was abused with wet wood and seriously clogged it can still be saved by a 50/50 vinegar water soak. You make it sound like after day one a cat stove is no better than an old smoke dragon.

Todd I agree with you as I have experienced this myself.. In fact I noticed smoke and slow cat reaction and replaced the cat right away.. Bought a Condar at the local stove dealer for $130.00 and will be good for another 6 yrs. or so.. I have only ever had one hole clog on a cat and I cleaned it out.. Vacuuming the cat takes about 5 mins. and requires a vacuum with the brush attachment..

Ray

 

[cycloxer]

My point was that unless you perfectly maintain your cat and burn only dry wood in your stove (which most users do not) they do not operate at peak efficiency, particularly as they age. Cat stoves were a complete disaster for most stove manufacturers because the average user did a good job of plugging, poisoning, and damaging the cat. Why do you think most stove manufacturers dumped the design in favor of reburn manifolds? The average user will make a mess of even the simplest machine.

As for computer controls, they have their place. It depends on whether you want a simple design or whether you are trying to eek out the last few % of efficiency. If you are going for maximum burn efficiency, it's where you have to go. They are on car engines. They are on modern furnaces. They are on virtually every modern appliance. They simply afford you a much higher level of refinement and control. That being said, there is also nothing wrong with a simple stove built like a battleship. Maybe the EPA will start a Cash for Smokers campaign.

 

[raybonz]

My point was that unless you perfectly maintain your cat and burn only dry wood in your stove (which most users do not) they do not operate at peak efficiency, particularly as they age. Cat stoves were a complete disaster for most stove manufacturers because the average user did a good job of plugging, poisoning, and damaging the cat. Why do you think most stove manufacturers dumped the design in favor of reburn manifolds? The average user will make a mess of even the simplest machine.

As for computer controls, they have their place. It depends on whether you want a simple design or whether you are trying to eek out the last few % of efficiency. If you are going for maximum burn efficiency, it's where you have to go. They are on car engines. They are on modern furnaces. They are on virtually every modern appliance. They simply afford you a much higher level of refinement and control. That being said, there is also nothing wrong with a simple stove built like a battleship. Maybe the EPA will start a Cash for Smokers campaign.

There really is no maintenance to a cat at least not in my stove.. I vacuum it occasionally but only because the stove happens to be in a cold iron state.. The little fly ash (dust) does not effect the cat at all.. On those cold iron days I like to shine the brass and vacuum the outside of the stove and use a little never seize on the damper threads and hinges.. Sounds like you haven't had a cat stove to me.. I have no problem with the secondary burn stoves I like the temperature control a cat stove provides.. I have nothing against high tech as it is what I do for a living I just like some things in life simple... I find it odd that there are little to no pollution controls on fossil fuel home heat yet we get dictated on wood a renewable carbon neutral resource... There are many soapstone cat stove owners here and I hear nothing but praise for them and that speaks volumes to me..From some of the specs I have seen cat stoves tend to be more efficient as well.. One more thing many stove makers make secondary burn stoves because it is cheaper to produce than a cat stove so they sell a bit cheaper and makes them more competitive in the stove market and they do not profit from cat sales, this is a fact that many overlook...

Ray

 

[cycloxer]

No, I don't own a cat stove, but I have lots of experience working with cats in automotive applications. A good friend of mine heats his house with a VC Defiant cat stove burning 5 cords per year. He replaces his cat every 2 years because it wears out. The guy also runs a firewood business and he knows what he is doing. I don't want to get into a cat vs. non-cat debate because both technologies have their merits. In fact, I tip my hat to cat stoves as a marginally more efficient option if the cat is kept in good working condition. For the average user, it is much easier to muck up a cat and this is the problem. You can flame impinge the cat where you literally start to burn it up. They are fragile and can be physically damaged. You can chemically saturate them prematurely (btw, this is exactly how the cat starts aging from day 1). They can be poisoned by burning crap in your stove. You can thermally shock the cat and cause crumbling. You can plug them by burning a variety of particulate generating materials. The average user does all sorts of stupid things that can result in the death of a cat.

 

[Todd]

For the average user, it is much easier to muck up a cat and this is the problem. You can flame impinge the cat where you literally start to burn it up. They are fragile and can be physically damaged. You can chemically saturate them prematurely (btw, this is exactly how the cat starts aging from day 1). They can be poisoned by burning crap in your stove. You can thermally shock the cat and cause crumbling. You can plug them by burning a variety of particulate generating materials. The average user does all sorts of stupid things that can result in the death of a cat.

Exactly why the EPA should put their time and money into educating wood burners before they lower the standards. If the average Joe burns wet wood it won't matter what kind of stove he burns and the EPA will use that in the future to just come out and ban them all.

 

[madrone]

Exactly why the EPA should put their time and money into educating wood burners before they lower the standards. If the average Joe burns wet wood it won't matter what kind of stove he burns and the EPA will use that in the future to just come out and ban them all.

True. We have a law here in Oregon that says that old stoves can't be sold or installed. Only EPA. Now it seems they'll be requiring old stoves be removed whenever a house is sold. Great. Next step is education. I'm not sure we need a license or anything, but maybe your new stove comes with a woodburning basics DVD and a nice bright sticker on top that screams about dry wood and proper stove temps. Maybe a BTU chart showing how much energy you waste burning green wood. All stoves probably ought to come with a thermometer as well. A little education would be cheaper and more effective in the long run than making unreasonable demands on manufacturers. Banning stoves outright seems pretty unlikely.

 

[SWNH]

Maybe the EPA will start a Cash for Smokers campaign.

Keene, NH, already did that.

http://www.ci.keene.nh.us/sustainability/woodstove-changeout

 

[woodjack]

Exactly why the EPA should put their time and money into educating wood burners before they lower the standards. If the average Joe burns wet wood it won't matter what kind of stove he burns and the EPA will use that in the future to just come out and ban them all.

True. We have a law here in Oregon that says that old stoves can't be sold or installed. Only EPA. Now it seems they'll be requiring old stoves be removed whenever a house is sold. Great. Next step is education. I'm not sure we need a license or anything, but maybe your new stove comes with a woodburning basics DVD and a nice bright sticker on top that screams about dry wood and proper stove temps. Maybe a BTU chart showing how much energy you waste burning green wood. All stoves probably ought to come with a thermometer as well. A little education would be cheaper and more effective in the long run than making unreasonable demands on manufacturers. Banning stoves outright seems pretty unlikely.

That's too easy and makes too much sense.