Fire Chief or Shelter EPA stoves feedback

[Mrpelletburner]

So yesterday I didn't use the stove, which means I didn't have to deal with any "puffs" or smoke alarms.

Here are 2 videos of my t-snout. Remember the liner was installed maybe a month ago, it's really black already. I do have a SS t-snout slip over extension so the SS pipe extends into the basement, it is just not shown in the video. Not sure if it is because I have the piping all apart, but the t-snout had a 5 degree angle. So the front of the t-snout was higher then the connection of the vertical pipe. Like I said, this could just because the SS liner/t-snout is just hanging in the open flue (you will understand watching the video). However the lowest reading of the manometer is -.04" wc.

Thoughts/suggestions? Trying to keep things fresh here

 

[maple1]

That is pretty dirty looking, for having had a 'clean burner' attached to it. Seems to be more evidence that it is not working as it should be. IMO there should be nothing but fly ash in there.

Stepping back a bit and reassessing/recapping - if I was looking at this for the first time, there are 3 main things I would ask about.

1. Quality/dryness of wood. From prior posts, it seems like you have demonstrated that is not the issue, with MC readings?

2. Adequate/proper draft. From the vids, it is plain to see that isn't the issue, with the manometer readings.

3. Proper operating procedures. I can't remember now but think you have even been running it as they have been directing you to or with their suggestions?

Which all leads back to some kind of design issue with the furnace. Which could be a dangerous type of design issue, also based on prior posts & vids. There could be something in what you are doing that is somehow amplifying the effects of the design shortfall, but with proper design you shouldn't be having issues at all with 1, 2 & 3 being satisfied. I have never heard or read of anyone having these issues with any other furnace, even when trying to use it with damp wood, improper draft, or wonky procedures.

 

[Medic21]

But shouldn't we be able to load the stove and walk away? Or at least not stand there for 15mins until we are burning hot enough?

I have never had a stove that I could load and immediately walk away from. I would be happy with 15 min.

 

[Mrpelletburner]

1. Quality/dryness of wood. From prior posts, it seems like you have demonstrated that is not the issue, with MC readings?

2. Adequate/proper draft. From the vids, it is plain to see that isn't the issue, with the manometer readings.

3. Proper operating procedures. I can't remember now but think you have even been running it as they have been directing you to or with their suggestions?

1. Up to last week, all the wood had been stored in a woodshed for at least 18-20 months. The wood I am currently burning has been stored in a woodshed for at least a year. However, I am not sure how long it was sitting in a woodpile before being delivered. But since the problem has been with both batches, I think we can rule out the wood.

2. Correct

3. Yes... It would be helpful if HY-C would post a video of the proper way to cold start and reload the stove. Or some video of stoves running at their facility. I believe Kuuma has a video out there demonstrating how to cold start and reload.

The folks that I have talked to at HY-C have the outdoor version FC1900 which is configured different then the FC1000. Would be helpful to hear from others with this stove, not already posting on this thread. If HY-C sold 2K stoves, that tells me at least 500-1k have to be out there in use somewhere.

In the end, I know that HY-C has a solid reputation and a ton of success with the prior models wood furnaces.


I already have put so much time and effort into this stove during work off hours and lost a ton of billable time during work hours. At this point, a trade up to the FC1500 would be welcomed or some refund.

 

[Medic21]

@Mrpelletburner shouldnt the liner be insulated? I've never messed with one. I could see a huge creosote issue uninsulated

 

[maple1]

@Mrpelletburner shouldnt the liner be insulated? I've never messed with one. I could see a huge creosote issue uninsulated

I'm thinking that there shouldn't be that much creosote at the connection - which I think is what the above vids are showing? - even if the rest of the chimney isn't insulated. Those earlier vids of smoke rolling past the baro opening seem clear evidence that it's not burning anywhere like it should be.

Is it worse farther up the chimney? I wasn't sure what I was seeing in some of that.

 

[Mrpelletburner]

@Mrpelletburner shouldn't the liner be insulated? I've never messed with one. I could see a huge creosote issue uninsulated

According to HY-C, insulating the liner was not required. The chimney has an outer brick layer, air gap, 8x12 clay lined flue, more air space and finally the SS liner.

The t-snout is so close to the stove, should be nothing but fly ash between the heat exchanger and the t-snout.

 

[Mrpelletburner]

I'm thinking that there shouldn't be that much creosote at the connection - which I think is what the above vids are showing?

Yes

Is it worse farther up the chimney? I wasn't sure what I was seeing in some of that.

Going to run a camera down the SS liner.

 

[3fordasho]

I have never had a stove that I could load and immediately walk away from. I would be happy with 15 min.

I can do that with both my Tundra's, even on a cold start. Took a couple hundred in extra controls to make it happen though.

 

[maple1]

I can do that with both my Tundra's, even on a cold start. Took a couple hundred in extra controls to make it happen though.

I don't have a stove, or a furnace - rather a boiler. But I can reload it and immediately walk away from it.

Open bypass, open door, load it up (rake coals into a pile first if needed), close door, close bypass. Good until it needs reloading again or until it burns out.

Cold starts need a bit more - I usually give it 5 minutes or so to get going before I close the bypass.

It has no controls at all (aside from an aquastat to turn the boiler pump off & on) and is natural draft - the draft door is wide open all the time. It just burns away until the fuel is all gone. It all comes down to the design & engineering - proper air flow to primary & secondary under a certain draft spec assuming wood of a certain moisture content. Easy.

 

[Mrpelletburner]

Around outside of t-snout


T-snout and up stack ~12'-16'

 

[brenndatomu]

Man you have some nasty stage 3 creosote...and yes, stage 3 is bad...that's like the chimneys you read about in the newspaper, or hear about on the evening news...3 alarm fire.
I really didn't expect anything less...the way that thing was smoking, in at least the one vid...and smoke = creosote.
What is really scary is the creosote that was left on the masonry chimney when you lined it...you light that off (yes it can happen with a liner, especially an uninsulated one) and there will be no putting it out until everything is gone...will the house still be there when its over? Dunno...but I'd quit using it immediately, until that chimney can be cleaned properly (probably gonna need a pro cleaning) both inside the liner and inside the masonry flue.
And yes, walking away from the furnace within 15 minutes is totally reasonable...I do it everyday...sometimes even 5 minutes.
Even if they "upgrade" you to a FC1500, what changes? Isn't it just a larger version of the same crap?
I personally think they have had their 1st, 2cnd, 3rd, and 4th chances (and more) already, I surely wouldn't allow any more of their crap in my house!

 

[brenndatomu]

So yesterday I didn't use the stove, which means I didn't have to deal with any "puffs" or smoke alarms.

Here are 2 videos of my t-snout. Remember the liner was installed maybe a month ago, it's really black already. I do have a SS t-snout slip over extension so the SS pipe extends into the basement, it is just not shown in the video. Not sure if it is because I have the piping all apart, but the t-snout had a 5 degree angle. So the front of the t-snout was higher then the connection of the vertical pipe. Like I said, this could just because the SS liner/t-snout is just hanging in the open flue (you will understand watching the video). However the lowest reading of the manometer is -.04" wc.

Thoughts/suggestions? Trying to keep things fresh here

Around outside of t-snout


T-snout and up stack ~12'-16'

Not even kidding about that ^ ^ ^ chimney, and just for a second opinion, maybe a check in with our resident chimney pro...hey @bholler what do you think of this chimney? Would you "red tag" it?

 

[bholler]

According to HY-C, insulating the liner was not required. The chimney has an outer brick layer, air gap, 8x12 clay lined flue, more air space and finally the SS liner.

The t-snout is so close to the stove, should be nothing but fly ash between the heat exchanger and the t-snout.

Do you have tgevrequired clearance from the outside of the masonry structure to combustible materials? This is 1" for an external chimney and 2" for an internal one. Regardless looking at your liner you need insulation. Also did you clean the chimney completly before installing the liner? It looks really dirty which is extremly dangerous. In addition you need a stainless extention added to tgat tee snout that is riveted fast and extends atleast 1.5" out of the wall.

As far as the puffback problem all of your symptoms sound like the typical wet wood problems. How long has your wood been cut split and top covered? When you test with a moisture meter is the split at room temp? Have you checked your moisture meter.

Another possible issue is the fact that you have no cold air duct hooked up. That means your distribution blower is sucking all of its air from right behind the stove. That can cause the stove to starve for air which can cause your issues.

 

[JRHAWK9]

Here's a reference for you. This was a light on a cold firebox. I put some crumpled paper, kindling and a dry 6" dia maple round split into a handful of pieces. We don't need much because of the warmer temps but the other half was getting cold even though it was 70° in here. I will be doing a small night re-load once we go to bed. Anyway, from the light of the paper to when the computer opened up the damper and took control over the burn........90 seconds (date/time stamp is in the top left corner). That's it, no babysitting nothing. As soon as the computer takes control you can shut the ashpan door and walk away.........just as I did.

Blower turned on 22.5 minutes after I walked away when the plenum temps hit ~150°. Plenum temp was 63° when I started the fire.

 

[bholler]

Brenndatomu is absolutly right that liner install and creosote is really scary. It is a accident waiting to happen.

 

[bholler]

Not even kidding about that ^ ^ ^ chimney, and just for a second opinion, maybe a check in with our resident chimney pro...hey @bholler what do you think of this chimney? Would you "red tag" it?

It is bad yes but i dont have the authority nor do i want the authority to red tag anything. But i sure as hell eould not burn it that way with my family in the house.

 

[brenndatomu]

It is bad yes but i dont have the authority nor do i want the authority to red tag anything. But i sure as hell eould not burn it that way with my family in the house.

Yeah, I didn't mean in a literal sense...more just in a "give the guy the facts"...'bout all we can do here anyways.
You don't wanna be a chimney cop. 'eh? Better zip my lip before I give the EPA ideas...

 

[Mrpelletburner]

Do you have the required clearance from the outside of the masonry structure to combustible materials? This is 1" for an external chimney and 2" for an internal one.

According to the town building inspector, I have the required spacing.

Regardless looking at your liner you need insulation.

Not questioning, but asking why you are stating I need insulation. The reason why I am asking is because the town building inspector stated I did not have to insulate the SS liner, HY-C also stated the insulation was not required and my neighbor just had a local stove shop install an EPA rated wood stove at the same time and they did not insulate his SS liner (same 6" setup). So are you suggesting for safety or to keep the stack temps?

I was planning on using vermiculite concrete around the SS liner vs the blanket style. The reason is so I don't have to break apart the clay liner, which about 2" away from my pellet stove clay liner and run the risk of breaking that clay liner.

Also did you clean the chimney completely before installing the liner? It looks really dirty which is extremly dangerous.

I had it cleaned by On Duty Chimney Service on February 14th for $185. The top-outside of the chimney needs to be cleaned this summer as the old wood stove was a creosol machine.

In addition you need a stainless extension added to the tee snout that is riveted fast and extends atleast 1.5" out of the wall.

I did order the extension (I think I read about the 1.5" last week), it arrived the other day. Will install and rivet in place. Thanks for the info!

As far as the puffback problem all of your symptoms sound like the typical wet wood problems. How long has your wood been cut split and top covered? When you test with a moisture meter is the split at room temp? Have you checked your moisture meter.

This year I burned 2 different stacks of wood. I first started using this stove around Feb 18th and up until around the March 16th, I was burning wood that had been covered in a wood shed and was split/stacked 2 years ago. Since around March 16, I have been burning wood that was purchased from a local fire wood supplier. They claimed it was seasoned, however from my past dealings with them, that just means it needs to sit for another year. So those splits were stacked last spring in my other covered wood shed. I try to bring in wood so it can reach room temperature before burning. This very long thread contains a couple photos of the different wood I was burning, including a photo of a fresh split with a moisture content measure at ~22%.

So, since I have had the issue with both stacks of wood, I was ruling out wet wood.

Another possible issue is the fact that you have no cold air duct hooked up. That means your distribution blower is sucking all of its air from right behind the stove. That can cause the stove to starve for air which can cause your issues.

So, yes I don't have a cold air duct return, however I keep the basement door wide opened. I have also had the basement window open and the bulkhead door opened and still had the same outcome. Also the way this stove is constructed, there is a plate attached to the bottom of this stove. In the front center, the plate does not have a screw and when the blower is running, you can feel the air from the blower coming from this air gap. While I highly doubt this is by design, I can assure anyone that there is a ton of fresh air leaking from this small gap, directly feeding the draft blower.


I truly appreciate all the suggestions/feedback and safety red flags as I have learned a ton from this forum. So please keep keep commenting. I will keep posting to this thread so I have a time line of what happened when.


I know I am not the only one with this stove that is having this issue, however it seems I am the only one with the cresol build up.

 

[bholler]

According to the town building inspector, I have the required spacing.



Not questioning, but asking why you are stating I need insulation. The reason why I am asking is because the town building inspector stated I did not have to insulate the SS liner, HY-C also stated the insulation was not required and my neighbor just had a local stove shop install an EPA rated wood stove at the same time and they did not insulate his SS liner (same 6" setup). So are you suggesting for safety or to keep the stack temps?

I was planning on using vermiculite concrete around the SS liner vs the blanket style. The reason is so I don't have to break apart the clay liner, which about 2" away from my pellet stove clay liner and run the risk of breaking that clay liner.



I had it cleaned by On Duty Chimney Service on February 14th for $185. The top-outside of the chimney needs to be cleaned this summer as the old wood stove was a creosol machine.



I did order the extension (I think I read about the 1.5" last week), it arrived the other day. Will install and rivet in place. Thanks for the info!




This year I burned 2 different stacks of wood. I first started using this stove around Feb 18th and up until around the March 16th, I was burning wood that had been covered in a wood shed and was split/stacked 2 years ago. Since around March 16, I have been burning wood that was purchased from a local fire wood supplier. They claimed it was seasoned, however from my past dealings with them, that just means it needs to sit for another year. So those splits were stacked last spring in my other covered wood shed. I try to bring in wood so it can reach room temperature before burning. This very long thread contains a couple photos of the different wood I was burning, including a photo of a fresh split with a moisture content measure at ~22%.

So, since I have had the issue with both stacks of wood, I was ruling out wet wood.




So, yes I don't have a cold air duct return, however I keep the basement door wide opened. I have also had the basement window open and the bulkhead door opened and still had the same outcome. Also the way this stove is constructed, there is a plate attached to the bottom of this stove. In the front center, the plate does not have a screw and when the blower is running, you can feel the air from the blower coming from this air gap. While I highly doubt this is by design, I can assure anyone that there is a ton of fresh air leaking from this small gap, directly feeding the draft blower.


I truly appreciate all the suggestions/feedback and safety red flags as I have learned a ton from this forum. So please keep keep commenting. I will keep posting to this thread so I have a time line of what happened when.


I know I am not the only one with this stove that is having this issue, however it seems I am the only one with the cresol build up.

Well for starters did the inspecter pull any trim between the chimney and house to see if you have the required 1" gap between the house and the chimney? If not he has no clue if you have the required clearances. Honestly most inspectors we deal with had no clue clearance was needed.

I said you need it regardless to keep up the temps. If you do have the clearances needed pour in would work ok just to help keep temps up. But if you dont have or cant confirm them the pour in isnt enough because you cant get the required 1" of insulation needed. You dont have enough room.

You may have had it cleaned but it wasnt cleaned anywhere near well enough. There are plenty of times we remove the tiles because it is the fastest and cheapest way to remove the creosote if it is bad.

As far as the wood i have no idea if that is the issue or not. When you test your wood is it at room temp? That makes a big difference unless your mm can adjust for temp. If it was me i would buy some bundles of the compressed wood bricks and see if that adresses the issue. Because most of your symptoms sound like wet wood. It can also be lack of air but i would eliminate the wood possibility first.

Yes i saw that you said you leave the door open. But that blower sucking air out right by the furnace can absolutly still cause a negative pressure problem there.

And it is creosote not creosol. Sorry i just had to correct you there

 

[maple1]

Well for starters did the inspecter pull any trim between the chimney and house to see if you have the required 1" gap between the house and the chimney? If not he has no clue if you have the required clearances. Honestly most inspectors we deal with had no clue clearance was needed.

I said you need it regardless to keep up the temps. If you do have the clearances needed pour in would work ok just to help keep temps up. But if you dont have or cant confirm them the pour in isnt enough because you cant get the required 1" of insulation needed. You dont have enough room.

You may have had it cleaned but it wasnt cleaned anywhere near well enough. There are plenty of times we remove the tiles because it is the fastest and cheapest way to remove the creosote if it is bad.

As far as the wood i have no idea if that is the issue or not. When you test your wood is it at room temp? That makes a big difference unless your mm can adjust for temp. If it was me i would buy some bundles of the compressed wood bricks and see if that adresses the issue. Because most of your symptoms sound like wet wood. It can also be lack of air but i would eliminate the wood possibility first.

Yes i saw that you said you leave the door open. But that blower sucking air out right by the furnace can absolutly still cause a negative pressure problem there.

And it is creosote not creosol. Sorry i just had to correct you there

But - I have never seen anyone with the explosion problems and degree of them that have been seen here, no matter the draft or MC situation

Also - the semi-permanently mounted manometer would seem to verify that draft is not an issue at all?

We are sort of crossing issues here, creosote accumulation vs. all the other problems. But I think the croesote in this case is a symptom of the bigger problem - faulty furnace design.

 

[bholler]

But - I have never seen anyone with the explosion problems and degree of them that have been seen here, no matter the draft or MC situation

Also - the semi-permanently mounted manometer would seem to verify that draft is not an issue at all?

We are sort of crossing issues here, creosote accumulation vs. all the other problems. But I think the croesote in this case is a symptom of the bigger problem - faulty furnace design.

I have seen tons of puffback issues due to wet wood. And as far as the manometer reading that doesnt tell you where that negative pressure is coming from just that there is negative pressure at the end of that line. Usually it means your chimney is pulling a draft but it can also mean the house is pulling on the chimney.

It may very well be an issue with poor furnace design i dont know. But i can see quite a few issues that could be contributing factors

 

[Medic21]

But - I have never seen anyone with the explosion problems and degree of them that have been seen here, no matter the draft or MC situation

I don't think any of us with the furnace have seen these issues like he has. Just saying...

Maybe it is time for a pro installer to inspect it for him and get away from the DIY realm. I would have had this done already, more ammo to fight with. He may very well have a faulty furnace and that is why he is having more problems, and worse problems, than the rest of us. I would find the closest dealer that sells them and get their installer there to give a professional opinion. If they say it's all good and are willing to go to bat for him that would make things happen.

Also, I was under the impression that all liners needed to be insulated regardless of building code. Regardless of install instructions of a stove. My shop furnace uses a 3/8" steel pipe out the side with a through the wall thimble kit. Safe? Yes. Creosote producing monster? Yes. I'll video how I remove the creosote someday .

 

[maple1]

I have seen tons of puffback issues due to wet wood. And as far as the manometer reading that doesnt tell you where that negative pressure is coming from just that there is negative pressure at the end of that line. Usually it means your chimney is pulling a draft but it can also mean the house is pulling on the chimney.

It may very well be an issue with poor furnace design i dont know. But i can see quite a few issues that could be contributing factors

Yes that is true about the house could be pulling on the chimney, but in that case the house would be full of smoke pretty quick. And also there are the vids of the smoke rolling pretty vigorously past the baro opening.

Agree on possible other issues - and wet wood would be my first thing I would question. But it seems that has been addressed. And I wouldn't expect any wet wood like issues, an hour or 2 into the burn like here.

Quite a saga - no matter the outcome, I am really curious what it is or will be, no matter how it turns out.

 

[maple1]

I don't think any of us with the furnace have seen these issues like he has. Just saying...

Maybe it is time for a pro installer to inspect it for him and get away from the DIY realm. I would have had this done already, more ammo to fight with. He may very well have a faulty furnace and that is why he is having more problems, and worse problems, than the rest of us. I would find the closest dealer that sells them and get their installer there to give a professional opinion. If they say it's all good and are willing to go to bat for him that would make things happen.

Also, I was under the impression that all liners needed to be insulated regardless of building code. Regardless of install instructions of a stove. My shop furnace uses a 3/8" steel pipe out the side with a through the wall thimble kit. Safe? Yes. Creosote producing monster? Yes. I'll video how I remove the creosote someday .

Yes true, this seems to be the extreme example of the issues. but I guess with any issues, there has to be an extreme end somewhere.

Getting a pro in would also be good, not sure what the local situation is for that there. Any independent WETT inspectors around? An independent assessment about the furnace design would also be interesting - but even harder to find or get, and likely not small $$.