Having trouble deciding on woodstove

[Woodsman on the Plains]

New here and wanting some help deciding on a woodstove for our basement. We currently have a Valcourt Lafayette 2 on the main level that does good on milder days in the 2300 sq ft main level but struggles when it drops below 10 f. I was thinking of the Pacific energy t5 or a quadra fire for the basement. Total finished area of basement will be around 1700 sq ft. I really like the idea of set it and forget it with the Quad but the t5 is a nice looking unit. Thoughts?

 

[stoveliker]

The T5 is a good stove (or so I've heard). But if it's in the basement, do you need the looks?
If you don't spend much time there, then a set-it-and-forget-it (siafi) stove is nice.

I don't know the quadrafire. But if siafi is the way you go, you should also look at Blaze King stoves. They run unattended for many hours due to the thermostat.

But, again, the PE T5 is a good stove. Many folks happy with it. (And the absence of remarks on the other one is not a vote of no confidence - just ignorance.)

 

[Woodsman on the Plains]

The T5 is a good stove (or so I've heard). But if it's in the basement, do you need the looks?
If you don't spend much time there, then a set-it-and-forget-it (siafi) stove is nice.

I don't know the quadrafire. But if siafi is the way you go, you should also look at Blaze King stoves. They run unattended for many hours due to the thermostat.

But, again, the PE T5 is a good stove. Many folks happy with it. (And the absence of remarks on the other one is not a vote of no confidence - just ignorance.)

Eventually we are planning on finishing the basement and turn that room into a family room of sorts so I guess it would be nice to have a good looking stove. However it's not the end of the world. I do prefer the non-cat stoves as they would be simpler for my wife to run when I'm at work. I do prefer the non-cat systems and I think the BK's are all catalyst now days... but correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[stoveliker]

You are correct. Then indeed go for something that looks the way you or your wife likes it.

But if the basement is not insulated now, you'll loose a lot of heat (30 pct or so). So you'd need a bigger stove now to get it comfortable but when it's finished and insulated, you will need less heat.

On the other hand, if you are on a 12 hr reload schedule, your wife won't need to do anything at all...

 

[Tar12]

Having ran several non cat stoves I can tell you that I will never own another one....I have found running a cat stove to be extremely easy to do...you load it...dial it in and walk away for 12 hours..no worry about over firing..thats the reason I went the cat stove route..I thought my wife would burn the house down with a non cat..she had never ran a stove of any kind and caught on to this cat stove very easily..

 

[begreen]

Eventually we are planning on finishing the basement and turn that room into a family room of sorts so I guess it would be nice to have a good looking stove. However it's not the end of the world. I do prefer the non-cat stoves as they would be simpler for my wife to run when I'm at work. I do prefer the non-cat systems and I think the BK's are all catalyst now days... but correct me if I'm wrong.

The metal cabinet version of the T5 is the PE Super. Same firebox, but without the castiron cladding and fancy trivet top.

 

[stoveliker]

Having ran several non cat stoves I can tell you that I will never own another one....I have found running a cat stove to be extremely easy to do...you load it...dial it in and walk away for 12 hours..no worry about over firing..thats the reason I went the cat stove route..I thought my wife would burn the house down with a non cat..she had never ran a stove of any kind and caught on to this cat stove very easily..

I am not sure that holds for all cat stoves. It holds for mine (and I think yours is the same brand) but that is courtesy of the thermostat.

 

[Tar12]

I am not sure that holds for all cat stoves. It holds for mine (and I think yours is the same brand) but that is courtesy of the thermostat.

True enough....I should not have painted with such a broad brush..I think it is safe to say that they all enjoy longer burn times...I remember discovering the BK brand and it leading me to this forum and it taking a huge leap of faith to drop that much coin on a stove...lol..at the time all I wanted was a stove that would burn for 8-10 hours so I could sleep through the night..lol..BK delivered then some!

 

[bholler]

You guys also have to remember just because a stove can get long burn times doesn't mean it will heat a person's house burning that long. Yes the stove I am burning can burn 12 or even 24 hours but I rarely do that.

 

[stoveliker]

That is of course true. The technology determines how long the heat output can be spread, the size determines the total BTU output for that timeframe, and your home and temperature preference makes you choose how fast you'll burn down the load.

But it doesn't matter much if the preference is for a non cat (despite us noting that operationally there is not much difference in user handling actions).

 

[jalmondale]

I also have a cat stove, although mine doesn't have a thermostat, and I find it exceedingly easy to run even as a wood stove newbie. If the only reason not to go with a cat stove is worries about difficulty of operation, it might be worth giving them another look (especially since they might be more flexible about going from an unfinished high heat load space to a finished lower heat load space).

 

[kennyp2339]

I think as far as 2020 regs PE has had the least amount of issues, aka proven design so far, very few complaints other then wait times at time of ordering.
The basement, is it a walk out type of sub underground? Are you going to insulate it? do you have an existing chimney or are you planning a new class A? How tight is the house currently, do you suspect a negative draft issue developing?

 

[Ashful]

You guys also have to remember just because a stove can get long burn times doesn't mean it will heat a person's house burning that long. Yes the stove I am burning can burn 12 or even 24 hours but I rarely do that.

Worth repeating. You put half a million BTU's into a box, and then meter it out over a period of 4 - 24 hours. A cat stove doesn't create more heat (other than a nearly-insignificant difference in efficiency), it only gives you more flexibility in the rate in which you meter out that load of ~500,000 BTU's. For some, this is an advantage, others may care less about that. Only you and your application will dictate whether that's important to you.

But, I also don't understand why you'd expect a cat stove to be more difficult for your wife to operate. My wife is definitely NOT into this whole wood stove thing, but does enjoy the heat they make. She loads them most weekends, if I'm up and out early, and has never had an issue with it. I've never run a modern non-cat, but to me the cat procedure sure sounds simpler:

1. Open bypass damper, and stick wood into stove, light if not a hot reload.
2. Let it get going, 5 - 15 minutes, then close bypass damper.
3. Run on high 15 - 30 minutes.
4. Turn down to final setting.

Someone who's run a non-cat can help you with the procedure on those, but I read too many threads here on this forum about people having trouble operating their non-cat's, to believe they're somehow much easier to operate. The real down-sides of the cat stoves are:

1. You can't burn trash, pressure-treated wood, or anything else that might contaminate the catalyst. Only burn cord wood, un-treated lumber, or approved wood substitutes (eg. NEILS). The non-cats can burn treated wood, questionable pallet wood, and other things that we cannot without potentially reducing our catalyst lifespan or performance.
2. Having to replace the catalyst every few years. The oft-quoted number is 12,000 hours, amounting to about 3 years for most full-time burners, but there has always been debate about this with many running 2x - 3x longer with perhaps some accepted increase in emissions.
It also appears some new catalysts are giving much longer life, but perhaps the yearly cost is no different. Expect your catalyst to amortize around $50 - $65 per year, for most brands and models.
3. Possible clogged combustors. This has been an issue on a few stoves when run all day on high settings for maximum output, especially those with very tall chimneys. The issue is caused by fly ash stirred up when running on high, which can get sucked thru the combustor. If you're one with a very strong draft (tall chimney), the issue is resolved by either installing a key damper to bring your draft to within spec for your stove, not running on high all day, or settling for vacuuming your combustor once or twice mid-season.

If I were to buy a non-cat, the T5 would be at the top of my list. But I also don't think I'd ever buy a non-cat, as long as good cat stoves remain an option. Different strokes for different folks, we all have our own preferences.

 

[MongoMongoson]

I very much like my PE Summit. It has the same firebox as the T6, so a little bigger than what you are looking at. However, with my install, when I fire it up or reload it there is no walking away or leaving it for at least an hour. I have a strong draft and sometimes it wants to try to run hotter than I like. I have a key damper that really settled it down and now I have remote temperature monitoring so I can be somewhere else in the house and still watching the temp.

I guess my point is, operation is simple with no bypass and just one air control but it needs someone to look after it. Maybe with less draft it would not be an issue.

 

[MongoMongoson]

Someone who's run a non-cat can help you with the procedure on those

I think the procedure is different for every install, and it is learned as you get used to your install. I let my pipe probe get to 640, then close the air 1/4. Then observe, adjust... when it starts to climb again I turn it down to 1/2... finally it is fully closed but sometimes needs a little key damper adjustment to keep it under control. Pre-damper installation, letting it get up to 640 before turning it down at all would make it run out of control.

That is just one procedure. Ask any 10 other hearth.com users and you will get 10 more.

I chose non-cat because it was closer to what I was used to, and because I did not want to have to worry about the cat, and because I wanted BTUs over a long slow burn so there was less advantage to me getting a cat stove. I chose non-cat but I don't think running a non-cat stove is any easier or simpler than a cat stove.

 

[begreen]

I chose non-cat because it was closer to what I was used to, and because I did not want to have to worry about the cat, and because I wanted BTUs over a long slow burn so there was less advantage to me getting a cat stove. I chose non-cat but I don't think running a non-cat stove is any easier or simpler than a cat stove.

We are in a similar situation. Mostly we need top end performance, not low and slow. An 8-12 hr burn is sufficient for our needs. With multiple operators the choice was a KISS design. Lower operational and maintenance costs mount up over time, so this was also a factor. In 12 seasons the total cost of maintenance has been under $60, though I will be replacing the door gasket this summer again and the side insulation seals. Firebricks are still original. The stove has proven to be easy to service, sweep, and durable. As I age, these factors become more important. An unexpected plus is that we really like the trivet top for everything from direct cooking to dough rising.

 

[Woodsman on the Plains]

Ok. Well there is definitely something to joining this platform. I am astounded by all the helpful responses. The more I hear from everyone the more I am second guessing the non-cat thing and seriously leaning towards a cat-stove. I think it would be better for my wife to not have to run into the basement to load a woodstove there and the fireplace upstairs during the day while I'm at work. The long burn times are definitely something to consider. And as of ease of operation it's sounding like they are easy to operate and not as much maintenance as I thought they would.
So I believe to have narrowed it down to the following;
Hearthstone Manchester
Hearthstone Green Mountain 80
Hearthstone Shelburne (this one is smaller than the other Hearthstones but I'm wondering if it will still do the job)
Vermont Castings Dauntless Flexburn(I like the option of burning with or without the cat)
Blaze King Ashford 30
Blaze king Princess

The only issue with the BK's is that I have limited dealers in my area and am wondering how big of a pain it will be to get services done on it if needed. And with the Hearthstones I'm wondering if the soapstone will heat fast enough when I really need it to pump out the heat?

Anyone have experience with Hearthstone? How do they compare with the BK's? Or VC's?

Also in response to Ashful... I will have about 25-28' of chimney.

 

[stoveliker]

The "pump heat when needed" is not a characteristic I would apply to the BK either. I mean, a properly sized stove will crank enough heat (that is what it means to have a properly sized stove). But BKs are not known for high peak production. Instead the philosophy is to heat constantly.

So,.if you arrive in a cold home, a BK might take a little longer to get the temps where you want them. (As compared to a non soapstone stove.)The difference between a BK and a soap stone stove may thus not be all that much in this respect.

Personally, I am fine with that, a bit longer in the ramp up, but less stuff to do during the burn. After all the latter is the majority of the time (if you burn 24/7).

Cats can be bought online. Service I have no experience with.

 

[stoveliker]

The other thing is (regarding cranking out peak performance) do you want a stove to carry all heat, even in the three worst days of winter? Or do you want a stove that can do well almost all the time, and you add a few gallons of oil (or whatever) to top up the stove output in those three worst days? (And then being able to heat nicely when it's 40-50 outside because of the turn down capability of the stove.)

 

[Ashful]

Ok. Well there is definitely something to joining this platform. I am astounded by all the helpful responses. The more I hear from everyone the more I am second guessing the non-cat thing and seriously leaning towards a cat-stove..

Either could work, and I already outlined the pros and cons above. More important perhaps is brand and model, there are a lot of turds out there, and many good stoves remaining.

If buying a cat stove, I’d stick to BK or Woodstock. Yes, there are many others out there and this forum hates any brand pushing, but the reality is that these two brands are above all other at stove manufacturers in performance and customer service. Moreover, unless your basement is going to be super well insulated, you’ll want a very convective stove, which may eliminate Woodstock, I believe their entire marketing is based on the radiant properties of soapstone.

I’d be shopping a very convective stove for a basement, which means usually means anything with a cast-clad or steel-clad box. In cat stoves, a good choice would be the BK 30-series, or in non-cats the T5 and T6.

Begreen is a walking encyclopedia of stoves, he can name many more, but a convective cast-clad steel box is what I’d be shopping for a basement. A cat stove is a great option, especially if long low burns is a goal. But I wasn’t suggesting is the only option, I was only taking issue with any implication they’re somehow not challenging to operate.

 

[bholler]

Either could work, and I already outlined the pros and cons above. More important perhaps is brand and model, there are a lot of turds out there, and many good stoves remaining.

If buying a cat stove, I’d stick to BK or Woodstock. Yes, there are many others out there and this forum hates any brand pushing, but the reality is that these two brands are above all other at stove manufacturers in performance and customer service. Moreover, unless your basement is going to be super well insulated, you’ll want a very convective stove, which may eliminate Woodstock, I believe their entire marketing is based on the radiant properties of soapstone.

I’d be shopping a very convective stove for a basement, which means usually means anything with a cast-clad or steel-clad box. In cat stoves, a good choice would be the BK 30-series, or in non-cats the T5 and T6.

Begreen is a walking encyclopedia of stoves, he can name many more, but a convective cast-clad steel box is what I’d be shopping for a basement. A cat stove is a great option, especially if long low burns is a goal. But I wasn’t suggesting is the only option, I was only taking issue with any implication they’re somehow not challenging to operate.

I will say those two certainly are very good. But there are plenty of others that are without question just as good when it comes to performance. They may be the best at customer service but if you have a good dealer there are many others that are very good as well.

 

[marty319]

You guys also have to remember just because a stove can get long burn times doesn't mean it will heat a person's house burning that long. Yes the stove I am burning can burn 12 or even 24 hours but I rarely do that.

I would freeze in my drafty old place going for a long burn time on a cat stove.

 

[jalmondale]

which may eliminate Woodstock, I believe their entire marketing is based on the radiant properties of soapstone.

They actually have a second line of steel stoves that are a bit cheaper, in addition to the soapstone ones.

 

[stoveliker]

I would freeze in my drafty old place going for a long burn time on a cat stove.

But you wouldn't if you didn't run it low, if it was sized properly for a drafty home.

 

[marty319]

But you wouldn't if you didn't run it low, if it was sized properly for a drafty home.

I know,