Heartbroken over a poor investment.

[ddahlgren]

There are some realities to look at. The average cord of hardwood has about 20 million btu per cord if perfectly seasoned. It is not perfectly seasoned in any way if burned the same year it is cut. It would have to be kiln dried for that to happen. You are probably losing 20% for that alone. Giving the average insert a rating of 80% efficient is very generous but for the sake of argument lets be generous. Now you have 12.8 million btu of heat to heat the house in a cord of wood. The stove is fantasy rated at 60,000 /hr. that is with kiln dried wood and lab conditions and not a 24 hour rating that is a peak output at the highest safe temperature for short term use. This brings up the question how long does it take to burn a cord of wood with a 1.2 cu. ft. firebox. I have a free standing stove that happens to be that size and 3 years heating with it so I have a clue about this. If you got 60,000 btu per hour the 12.8 million btu net rating wood it would last slightly less than 9 days and with the firebox size you would have to reload and never let the stove get below 50% full and never stop to clean ashes or burn down coals. This would be a full time job 24/7. I can burn a cord a month if I really stay on top of things but 5 weeks probably closer. In the case of last month with all those brutal days I went through 3/4 cord of wood and 25 packs of bio bricks and eco bricks combined as well. They are handy in the morning or getting the stove up to temp quickly after a burn down and clean out. As far as heat goes when the stove is on the average burn part of the cycle the room the stove is in will be 75 the rest of the first floor is 60 something the second story bed rooms mid to high 50s on a 10 to 20 degree day.

For the 3800 you spent on the too small stove a professional should have done heat loss calculations to tell you how big a stove you needed in the first place rather than you tell him what you like and going with it under the assumption it will probably be ok. If they don't know how and have the software to do it and the software that makes it quick and easy they are not a professional in the heating business. There is hope as there are free calculators online and plenty of good web pages to help determine the infiltration numbers. All you need to do this is a ruler thermometer and internet connection and about 4 hours. The numbers it will spit out will be in btu per hour assuming for the most part oil or gas heat and will be higher than you really need for wood or coal for that matter. You can cross check these by taking the amount of oil you burned or you neighbors did between fillings and multiply that that by 100,000 and divide by the number of hours between a fill up. EX. 175 gallons over 3 weeks with both fills at 10 am.(175 X 100,000) / 504 hours = 34722 btu per hour. Ask a neighbor if need be if they have a similar house how much they burn and how warm they keep their house. If they say something around the example given I would at least double that number to 70,000 to 90,000 btu to get 'stove ratings'.

Making the house tighter is the easiest way to need less heat. The best bang for the buck is 3M interior wind film along with gaskets for exterior wall electrical outlets and switch plates Tight door sweeps and gaskets as a must as well. For the wood you have on hand now I would split it down to nothing bigger than a 2 X 3 or 2 X 4 and store tomorrows wood next the stove as it will have the driest air in the house..

 

[blades]

Hi Wendy, and welcome.
Insulation - I believe it would not be necessary to remove the present insulation, it is not in a living space and therefore doesn't not represent a hazard ( I could be wrong but remediation now days would unbelievably expensive) You can add insulation over the top, I would recommend blown in cellulose because it does not have/ allow air transport through it when properly installed, something that none of the fiberglass types will tell you ( fiberglass insulation actually loses R value as the temps dip do to air transport through it - something else they do not tell you) additionally as the cellulose settles it does not lose R value ( another do not tell thing with fiberglass) It is also treated with fire retardant as well as bug and rodent stuff. Cost is about the same or a little less.

Windows- unless the framing and /or sills are way out of square or rotted it is not necessary to replace the whole assembly, They make replacement sash kits ( wood) ( I used Champion) with all the good features at considerably less than all the window ads ( stay away from vinyl windows they shrink and crack with age) Note that Vinyl, Alum. window units do not expand and contract at the same rate as your wood framing and generally start leaking after a year or so. Only the fiberglass units are very close to wood in expansion and contraction but are of premium price. Also note the sash units can be a DIY thing if your so inclined there by saving a bunch more. ( Toss out the previous if your window assemblies including the frame are not wooden).

Insert- block off plate- absolutely top and bottom , otherwise a lot of heat lost right up the chase and that include additional heat from your conventional heating appliance. You can burn a fireplace 24/7 and whatch your heating bill actually increase. naysayers beware
If the unit/s are capable of being set up with an outside air source ( commonly called an OAK) do it, this reduces( won't eliminate) the migration of cold air to the unit from other rooms as well as from out side through every nook and cranny - again naysayers beware. ( nothing more uncomfortable than a small hurricane of cold air at ankle level feeding the fire).

Flue - I gathered that it is sort of in an inside chase - so technically an insulated flue is not needed, additionally there might not have been enough room to install same. At the same time insulated flues generally preform better than non- insulated ones.

Best wishes on your quest. ( dang editor wouldn't let paragraph insets so spaced apart)

 

[hamsey]

Wendy,

We recently had Superior install a Jotul Rockland at the end of January. When shopping I stated I wanted a block off plate and roxul. Paid extra for the Block off plate made it myself in had it in place. Went and bought roxul at Lowes as I needed more for the gas stove.

When they came to do the install they did not install the plate claiming there was note enough room. They did install roxul at the top of the chimney and above the stove. Install went fine but they were in a hurry together to the next install.

Upset that they did not install the plate I went ahead and did the install myself. Quite a bit of choice words but I did get it in place. I asked about an insulated liner and was told that I did not need it. I dealt with the Avon store when purchasing.

I would get the bigger stove, block off plate and insulating. Not sure who did your install but Sweep Away located in Wolcott did ours. I am going to have them come back and pull the liner and insulate it along with some other work I Ned to have done on the chimney.

As others have said dry wood is a must. Being our first year we are short on wood burning most of it in the open fireplace. Trying to get ahead on wood but is difficult with the winter we are having. I was able to score two cords from AJ in Farmington that was CSS for a year and stacked that for next winter. Still too wet to use this year.

As is usually the case bigger is always better. Surprised that Superior would offer you the upgrade, I would jump at it.

 

[Kosmik]

I remember this gray loose stuff under the floor up there and GOOGLED "Insulation used in houses built in the 50's". A picture came up showing exactly what's up there - with the caption: ASBESTOS. So... if my house doesn't burn down first, then I'll die of asbestos poisoning.

Is there any openings to disturb the asbestos? Gable vents? Plumbing heating penetrations? Don't go up there, I'd be more worried about what gaps I can see from living spaces. The AB problem comes from breathing it, and like fine ash it is small and gets everywhere. I've had friends do mitigation themselves, but they were real DIYers, and still used a truckload of ducttape and plastic sheeting.

The biggest problems with asbestos come when you do some remodeling and thus disturb it, bring it into the living space, or worse and probably root of cause home problems you make a direct airway from previously undisturbed asbestos area to living space. AB mitigation is no small task, sometimes the best/cheapest option is to just leave it be.

In summary, I wouldn't even enter my attic, not even to add more insulation (save to take a sample for testing) if I thought it contained asbestos...And I'd caulk shut the hatch.

If you think it's asbestos and you think you'll be insulating before next winter, get a pro to check it or maybe send a sample to a lab first.

Cellulose is cheap and easy to blow (probably less hazardous dust, too). Worked well for me. Plus it's making use of old newspapers.

What I thought from when I did attic insulation and look into it, which may be wrong, is fiberglass doesn't settle as much as cellulose. That when cellulose settles you do lose some R-value, just as when any insulation settles and less airspace is trapped. So cellulose needs reblowing in a few years to re-up the R-value.

While expensive there are DIY foam kits to do X board feet (expensive, like 200 board feet $300), but for an entire attic a professional may come in close. Foam will give you best sealing of air leaks.

Still, blowing cellulose is kinda fun and can usually rent the blower cheap or free with purchase of cellulose. Need two people, one to blow, one to load...A third wouldn't hurt. Helps to caulk/seal everything in attic or from below, as the cellulose dust finds it's way through some pretty small cracks.

Bigger stove will help, but heating of buildings is artful too. If having real troubles try making foam board or blanket insulations to put over windows that aren't taking in good sunlight. Even a fancy double pane window will have an R-Value of under 4. In solar homes many will shutter the windows at night with some form of insulation.

And as funny as it may sound, cracking a window in the same room as the unit (nearer the better) can make a drafty house warmer...As the stove pulls air from the near window and not the front door or upstairs window or other far off gap in cold part of house.

And when you'll really feel the heat off a stove is when its air control is throttled all the way back and you have a steady secondary going. Having to give it more oxygen (air control open) to keep secondary going is a sign of not dry wood. Plus then it's not just heat going up the chimney, but cold air being brought into the house to feed the fire working against you.

 

[webby3650]

Just keep in mind that insulating the liner will do nothing to improve the heat that is coming from the unit. So paying to have it removed and insulated will have a very poor rate of return.
That being said, I am a firm believer in insulating a liner. We always insulate, it's so easy and does not add much cost if its done before its installed.

 

[dave_376]

As everyone else has said you need to insulate. Superior isn't a bad store, they are just like every other dealer in CT I have talked to. None want to insulate the liner or install a block off plate. They are not required by building code so they done need to install them, but they will gladly come back out and charge you extra to add them later.

Burn all the ash you can get. Oak needs to be cut and split longer but It also burns great.

I would look at the Pacific Energy Aldera T5 insert as an alternative to a Jotul. Jotul's are fantastic stoves and I would have no reservations about burning a properly sized Jotul in my house. The PE might put off heat faster after a cold start than a Jotul because of the amount of cast iron. Cast iron takes a long time to heat up but it also radiates that heat off long after the fire has died.

Don't get discouraged with burning wood!! Keep at it and learn how to burn effectively and stick it to the oil man.

 

[dyerkutn]

Cast iron takes a long time to heat up but it also radiates that heat off long after the fire has died.

So true. That is the stove I have---once the heat has absorbed into everything in the room it holds for a really long time and if you don't let it die down too soon it is really easy to relight if you have dry wood.

 

[webbie]

Thank God I knocked on Hearth's door. I sooooo appreciate all this feedback. I will get answers to all questions pending and post back.
Thanks to all.

Most of these posts are right on!

Bottom line - the combo of about the coldest winter I remember, an undersized stove, etc. is probably the culprit.

We have been educating people here since 1995 not to put faith in brochures and claims from any manufacturer. There is hardly a stove out there which can put out 40K BTU on a constant level. It's a matter of simple math - which is why we developed some calculators to do the work for you.

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/burn_time_calculator

If I worked backwards through that calculator, I would see that it would take a 3 CF firebox stuffed with harder wood to have a 6 hour burn at 40K BTU...

On the other hand, if this was a winter where we had weeks of 45-50 degree days in Jan/Feb, you'd probably think the stove was really doing a good (or better) job.

So you want to maximize everything - the wood, the installation, the firebox size, etc. to match the job you are trying to accomplish.

 

[fire_man]

I almost gave up on woodstoves but thanks to this Forum I stuck with it and learned the right way to heat my house with wood.

Stick with it and you'll be doing the same.

 

[TradEddie]

While I agree with others that the combination of an incredibly cold winter, small stove and poorly insulated house are part of the problem, I don't think anyone has addressed your air control. It's not intuitive how a stove air control works, it's not like a thermostat or gas pedal, more air does not give more heat, there is a sweet spot depending on your stove and the dryness of your wood where you will get the most heat, open it too much and the fire burns hotter, it looks great, but the heat goes up the chimney, close it too far and you starve the fire. At just the right spot you send enough air to gently scorch the wood on the bottom, driving off flammable gases and smoke that burn at the secondary tubes. Do you have a stovetop thermometer? For $20 they are about the best investment you can make, second only to investing in time for well seasoned wood.

TE

 

[becasunshine]

Stoveguy - The blower does get used - it's set to go on "auto". However - NO block off plate or insulation! Since it would be tough to put the plate in, I could at least insulate, right? And... I have an attic floor about this room the I JUST learned about 15 minutes ago - is actually asbestos... After reading everyone's suggestions the last 24 hours, I thought to myself it's time to add additional insulation to the attics. I remember this gray loose stuff under the floor up there and GOOGLED "Insulation used in houses built in the 50's". A picture came up showing exactly what's up there - with the caption: ASBESTOS. So... if my house doesn't burn down first, then I'll die of asbestos poisoning.

WendyO, we have a 1950s brick and block bungalow with no wall insulation- brick, block, plaster and mud, and we have the gray fluffy stuff under the original floor boards in the attic, as well as in between the attic floor joists, underneath the more modern R19 batting insulation that a previous owner put in between the floor joists. There was an original certificate nailed to a roof joist cross beam/member in the attic certifying that the original rock wool insulation was installed in 1958.

So, there's a possibility that the gray fluffy stuff in your attic is not asbestos- but if you are going to disturb it, you will want to make sure. Not sure how you would go about making sure but you'll want someone with certifiable knowledge on the subject matter to advise you.

Insulation *is* key. We have a freestanding Napoleon NPS40 pellet stove in this 1950s brick and block bungalow that is rated to heat 2000 sq. ft. (and we all know what they say about wood burning appliance ratings.) This bungalow is 1410-1420 sq. ft. and that pellet stove could not carry this house by itself in the coldest weather until this year. Yeah, I know what I just said.

We'd added batting R30 insulation over the original rock wool and the R19 insulation in the attic, and we'd had a company install a radiant barrier on the underside of the roof and the inside of the gable walls. Prior to adding attic insulation and the radiant barrier, we'd added cell shades to the windows, and thermal curtain panels over the cell shades on some windows, regular curtains over the cell shades on other windows. (The house had double pane replacement windows installed throughout when we bought it.) All of those improvements helped a lot but the pellet stove still couldn't carry the house.

Early this fall, we added UL approved outlet and switch plate insulated inserts to ALL of the outlets and switches, on both exterior/perimeter walls and on interior walls. The effect was the equivalent of closing a door or a window. The lack of insulation in the walls made the electrical outlet and switch penetrations in the walls act like little chimneys, funneling the conditioned air from inside the living space in the house, up through the non-insulated walls and into the attic. Sealing up the wall penetrations reduced that air leakage. Then my husband caulked, spray foamed, or otherwise sealed the penetrations from the ceiling into the attic. When we peeled back the newer, white R30 insulation that we'd recently added, we could see dust markings on the underside of the batting that corresponded directly to the electrical/lighting fixture penetrations in the ceiling right below. Those markings clearly showed that conditioned air was escaping through our light fixtures and up into the attic. Google "sealing air leaks in your attic," the FedGov has several good web sites on this topic, complete with photographs and instructions. We also beefed up the weather stripping on a couple of casement windows. All of these changes were the equivalent of closing another door or window. Finally, because the hardwoods in this house have been sanded/refinished a couple of times, leaving a gap along the quarter round trim on the baseboards, we used caulk that dried clear and caulked that gap around all of the baseboards in the house. BOOM! Another door/window closed.

We also fabricated an insulated insert to put inside the grill of an old school (but still working very well) through the exterior wall NuTone exhaust fan over the range in the kitchen. I have to remove it if I want to use the fan, and put it back when I'm done using the fan, but the reduction in the draft is noticeable. It took a while to figure this out, but even after we put the insert behind the fan grill there was still a noticeable draft behind the range in the kitchen. We pulled the range out and saw that after we'd pulled up all of the layers of old flooring in the kitchen and replaced it with ceramic tile during that kitchen renovation (and we did the tile floor ourselves) we'd totally blown past THAT HUGE GAP IN BETWEEN THE TILE FLOOR AND THE ADJACENT PLASTER WALL. Since it was a gap in a non-insulated exterior wall, that by itself was the equivalent of leaving a window open. Husband filled that gap with expanding foam (yes it was that big) and the draft was stopped immediately.

I'm betting you have some sizeable gaps around the plumbing coming in for your sinks and toilets- we did. Spray foam. You can trim it and paint it to match.

All of these things made a HUGE difference in our 1950's era house. The pellet stove has carried this house comfortably with very little assistance from the gas furnace, except occasionally on the very coldest nights, in the wee hours right before dawn.

(I'm in this part of the forum because even though we heat this house with a pellet stove, we are in the process of having a wood stove installed into the home in which we hope to retire in a few years.)