Hearthstone vs Progress, bee in bonnet

[John Lehet]

It makes sense. The saleswoman there wasn't about to tell me that. She explicitly told me they would be about the same at the low end. I've heard so much good about the Woodstock people I can't muster the cynicism to think she lied to sell me a stove. She also showed me a printout of a table with the stoves and their outputs, and it was pretty crazy, all over the place. She said, Yeah, tested at different times, different tests. I can't remember specifics of that table (a lot in it), but she said basically don't put any stock in the tests, because they are not the same test. She said she's never heard of anyone who got cooked out by the Progress being too much stove. I've also never seen anyone in a forum anywhere saying they had that problem with a Progress. (Of course it could be I'm the only one stupid enough to install one in a smaller space.) IDK maybe if I had gotten a different sales person I would have gotten a different view?

I also measured the fireboxes the long way. The Fireview they say it takes 16 inch logs, but it's at least 18 inches long. My Jotul 3 FCB is the exact opposite. They say it will burn 18 inch logs, but they better mostly be shorter than that. You can just barely fit an 18 inch log into it if there's nothing else going on in the stove, no coals or other logs.

The size difference of the fireboxes between the Fireview and the Progress is dramatic if you can see them both in the same room. The Progress has a crazy huge firebox.

Also talked to the stove installer (I think I mentioned that?). He installs for Woodstock around here (they give out his name) and he actually owns two of their stoves himself. I went through all of our situation and the stoves I was wondering about, and he basically came down to, "The Progress is one really good stove."

Hybrid + firebox makes sense though, as you say and bigger stove.

I'm not too worried about our use though. As I've said, basically we only light the stove when the 15k mini split is struggling. In other words, we need probably 12 or 13k of heat if not more to even think of making a fire. And that's in the warmest weather of stove use. Our burn season is shorter than many wood burners because of the mini splits I guess. I suppose we might want to avoid firing the stove on a chilly morning when it's going to warm up a lot during the day. Or we will make a fire with a small load and treat it like a little masonry stove. I will surely be wary of loading the firebox all the way full on a milder day, so we can let it coast down if need be. We'll see! Hope I'm not making a mistake.

Also in spite of the warnings in this thread, I haven't found a forum thread anywhere with anyone cooking themselves out with a Progress.

Also, my wife doesn't like the look of the Fireview. I kind of like it, I think of it as "trippy-funky," and I think it would be appropriate in our old schoolhouse. But we both agree we like the Progress better.

Hope I don't regret it, but I'm more excited than apprehensive.

 

[Todd]

If it doesn’t work out they have a 6 month return policy so might as well give it a try. I’ll be interested to see how it works out.

You’re right about the different testing over the years. The EPA keeps changing the methods to their madness. None of them are real world tests because there are so many variables in wood burning.

 

[garbo]

Hi! I'm in a similar boat, considering the Progress Hybrid but wondering if its overkill for the space. Its not a big house, its a new build with 8 ft ceilings and will be well insulated. I wanted to go with a hybrid stove for the efficiency and the environmental benefit, plus to my understanding it requires less maintenance and cleaning due to the secondary combustion? Since the Fireview is cat only I was leaning toward the PH.

Also a bit frantic trying to decide since I'm hoping to have it installed by December for the tax credit but who knows if thats possible given all the uncertainty already discussed.

I've attached the house plans for anyone curious. Its also not entirely clear to me how many rooms/what portion of a house a wood stove effectively heats...there's an upstairs thats not pictured, its only above the 26x 30 box, and has 2 bedrooms. Would the PH or fireview effectively heat those as a primary heat source? I assume based on common sense that it won't heat the ADU through closed doors and a mudroom, unless there's something basic I dont understand about how heat circulates.

Anyway this forum is a great resource, thanks for sharing all your knowledge!

 

[Todd]

There is little to no difference between the PH and Fireview in efficiency or emissions. The PH probably burns cleaner at higher burn rates in epa tests but you’re not going to burn like that. Both stoves are very close at lower burn rates where you will mostly be burning. I would call Woodstock and ask them which stove would be a better fit.

 

[John Lehet]

Having talked to and visited Woodstock lately, my sense is they are not going to steer you strongly between these two stoves. If you’re wobbling between them, they’ll let you wobble a bit I think and land with your inclination. I suppose there might be a different sales person, but I talked to two different women with the same style. I appreciate this style of salesmanship on the one hand, but if looking for strong guidance of what to do, it’s slightly frustrating. On the other hand, I (we) landed on the Progress, and I feel good about how I got here, might have felt more doubt if I had been “pushed” a bit more by outside influence. Who knows.

One thing though is if you want to get it for sure this fall, when I was there they were actually building Fireviews. She said I could get one in two weeks (a couple of weeks ago when I was there). The Progress is a bit less clear. I guess they expect to start building those in a couple of weeks, but as of a few weeks ago the EPA approval for crib wood was more like penciled in than inked in. She also told me that the way they usually work is one worker builds one stove, but right now they are working in an assembly line style. I shouldn’t speculate on what exactly that means for delivery, but I’m guessing that whatever they are building/shipping right now is a more likely stove to obtain this fall, or earlier in the fall anyway. Who knows, maybe they have switched to building Progress over Fireview already, or are working on the steel stove.

When I talked to an installer, who has experience with them and who is penciled in to install my Progress, about selling my current stove right now and counting on the Progress being delivered on time (late October), he said, “Don’t sell the Jotul yet!”

There is of course a cost difference, and a big IMO aesthetic difference. I thought the Fireview looked different in person than in photos. The official photos of that stove seem to be taken from a lower angle than eye level. From standing (and I’m not tall), it looks a bit more short and squat than I was expecting. The Fireview has a distinctive presence, which can cut either way I guess if you have strong opinions. On first glance (photo) I loved the Fireview’s looks, but as I saw it more, I liked the look rather less. My wife was with me on that. I could easily see it going the other way for someone else.

The Progress on the other hand is much more neutral, but not blandly neutral, the way a nicely designed Mercedes is a bit neutral but not at all blandly so. It doesn’t shout “I am an elegant and nice car!” It just is one. (I do not and have not owned a Mercedes and probably never will, but I appreciate that aspect of their design.)

I also don’t know for sure how having this stove will change our burning habits — if we will in fact keep it going all night and wake up to a warm stove, or if we will continue our habit of letting the stove go out at night, the temperature drops with mini split to hold it at 60 or whatever, and then light the stove in the morning. (No way to keep a fire going in our current Jotul all night, so this is how we roll). So, if we burn with this old habit, my sense is the Progress with throw more heat through the larger glass right away. Also the larger glass and secondary burn will have a different experience of the fire, especially in colder weather when burning a little harder? Just guessing on that.

 

[garbo]

Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts! Woodstock just confirmed the fireview would be ready sooner since they are currently being built.

 

[John Lehet]

Did Woodstock say anything about building the Progress? Like, “For sure in a couple of weeks…”

 

[begreen]

The PH may be getting recertified. If so, the question is whether it will be in time for the Dec 2025 tax credit deadline. The Fireview has a current letter of certification. Note that consumers also need to request the QM number from the dealer. Word is that without the QM number, no credit.

 

[John Lehet]

Yeah, that certification is supposed to be “in progress.” I’m biting my nails a bit about whether it happens soon. Or might be basically done but needing some finalization. But impending government shutdown = EPA shutdown = more delays in this kind of thing. Also wonder if the timing = payment date vs delivery of stove. We did solar panels just before a change for the worse in the net metering in Vermont. In that case, it was by the contract/payment rather than the installation. We met the deadline on the former, but the panels were installed after.

Don’t mind burning this Jotul November through mid December, but by New Years or so, now that I’ve got the bee in my bonnet, I’ll want a better stove, and in particular the Progress.

Also, I’ve just cut and bucked and split and stacked a handful of small to medium ash trees, and I’ve cut them to 21 inches! (It’s for ‘26-‘27) Don’t want to re-cut all this wood!

 

[Todd]

The PH may be getting recertified. If so, the question is whether it will be in time for the Dec 2025 tax credit deadline. The Fireview has a current letter of certification. Note that consumers also need to request the QM number from the dealer. Word is that without the QM number, no credit.

Yes they are still waiting on the certification from EPA before they can ship the PH. The stove was retested with a different crib wood method earlier this year and had to tweak the air control to let in more.

 

[garbo]

Woodstock said they are currently waiting for the EPA certification for the PH but that they are "hoping/expecting it very soon in the next week even" and then they will begin building the stoves. They also said they thought they could have it to me for installation before the deadline in December. I asked them to keep me informed about the certification progress and to let me know once they can be sure it will arrive in December or earlier.

I looked it up and unfortunately the language about biomass stoves from the IRS specifies that to claim the tax credit the stove must be "placed in service" by the deadline (https://www.irs.gov/credits-deductions/energy-efficient-home-improvement-credit) and the law terminating the tax credit specifies that it "shall not apply with respect to any property placed in service after December 31, 2025." https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/25C

Which unfortunately all seems pretty clear.

It's all a bit discouraging and I'm sure the shutdown will have an impact too, I read that some of the EPA will still be operational in the event of a shutdown but given the staffing cuts already causing delays I'm sure a shutdown will mean even more. The article here specifically discusses EPA staffing and the effects of a shutdown: https://www.eenews.net/articles/federal-workforce-girds-for-mass-firings-amid-shutdown-threat/

Good luck with getting yours before the deadline as well, fingers crossed.

 

[begreen]

There already have been mass layoffs at the EPA. That isn't helping certification processing.

 

[John Lehet]

Reading a blog post on the Woodstock site — I think it was one of the ones where the owner is pretty mad about the crib wood thing —it does seem they have basically real time phone contact with EPA. That’s a lot better than an awful lot of our toss-it-into-black-box experience with bureaucracy. And it gives me hope (except for the government shutdown) that their assessment is reasonable. The shutdown, well, how much of the EPA will even exist in a few weeks? Anybody’s guess.

 

[DuaeGuttae]

@garbo, does the current tax credit even apply to a new build rather than to a previously existing home? Whether you can get a stove installed prior to the deadline may be an unnecessary concern if it doesn't apply to new construction.

I think you can expect a good amount of heat to move upstairs if the stove is located in the great room. I'm having a little trouble understanding the plans with my aging eyes. Is there a stove on the outside wall of the great room across from the stairwell? A fireplace next to the stairwell?

We have a stove located next to our stairwell at the corner of our open kitchen/living/dining room. It heats the main areas downstairs nicely, and heat does move upstairs. We do use our HVAC fan to circulate air from time to time since all our ducting is in conditioned space, but the warm air definitely does rise up our staircase to the upper floor. We do encourage kids to keep their doors open as they can to allow better air circulation.

 

[garbo]

@ DuaeGuttae The stove will be along the wall next to the stairs, right before the nook pictured on the plan, thanks for taking a look! There will be an HVAC to circulate air so thats a good point too, that will move air more than I was initially thinking.

I wasn't aware the credit was only for improvements to existing homes, which is embarrassing, but thank you for pointing that out. For other people waiting for the EPA approvals I'm still crossing my fingers for you and for the EPA to continue to exist in general

 

[John Lehet]

Stopped by Woodstock stoves while running errands. Not surprisingly, they did not get the approval before the EPA got shut down. She said not to worry, no sweat. I went out back and saw a line of Progress stoves she said they are starting ro put together. This was the same sales woman I ordered it from the other week, working on a sale to a couple today ( I tagged along to go into the back.)

Weirdly, in explaining cats to this couple who didn’t seem very stove savvy, she said something like, “It’s just something we have to add for the EPA.” Which makes me question her assurance that the min output would be about the same between the progress and fireview.

 

[John Lehet]

At Woodstock, I found myself slowly coming around to the look of the Absolute Steel. Moved from total aversion to “oh, that’s interesting” on those stoves. Those stoves are probably a better fit for our house except aesthetically, and cheaper. A bigger range, a lower end, and probably a quicker warm-up.

After a couple more errands it was only a couple miles out of the way to go to another stove store. That one was full of black rectangles. Lopi, Pacific Energy, Regency. The saleswoman in that store was even less up on how cats work. I was trying to get to the concept of range with her, but she would only talk bigger or smaller stove. I said it is possible to have a stove with a pretty high heat output that could also cruise along shut down, eating smoke, with the cat engaged. She said, no, you’ll get creosote in your chimney. I suggested they should burn clean. She said “Nope, you can’t burn a big stove except really hot or you’ll get creosote.”

Some of the stoves in there in fact had a cat right at the stovepipe exit. In that case, yes, just tacked on for the EPA and of little virtue, heat-wise. Either Pacific Energy or Regency — those all looked about the same to me. I guess of all the stoves in there I’d pick the little Lopi, but I would go with a Woodstock Absolute Steel, no matter how designed-on-acid, over any of those black boxes in that store.

After yet another errand, there is another stove store, right along my route home, not out of the way at all. I stopped there too. Pretty stoves were VC in there. I told the guy, “Vermont Castings have a reputation…” and he cut me off, “I know their reputation. I used to work for them!” I think we were on the same page? I then told him I had an Intrepid around the turn of the century, hands down the worst stove I ever had. No VC. They had Morso stoves, appealing but not EPA/tax credit approved. Jotuls where two out of the line were approved. They also had Hearthstone iron stoves, no stone, not that I would get a stone Hearthstone, even though the prospect of one of those set me off on this whole journey. Of the stoves in that store I’d pick their Jotul Oslo, but it’s over $6k. Tariffs. But -30%. Still I’d take any Woodstock stove over the Oslo. I’ve read somewhere that the Oslo can be hard to control. The cat can’t be bypassed.

 

[begreen]

Sorry it has been such a challenge. Some stove shops have well informed personnel and others are not much better than going to a Best Buy.

 

[John Lehet]

More like a journey than a challenge! I'm very grateful for this forum. I've been reading lots of threads and learning a lot about stoves. Wood burning for me has been a really long journey, going back to 1979 when I got a gig house-sitting for free rent in a cabin with no running water and no heat but a leaky huge antique stove, in which I burned green wood I stacked right when I got the gig, in November. (The occupant of the cabin told me to go down to the local general store and fill up the glass jug by the stove with kerosene, and use that to start fires. I did that at that point, but never again. It's a wonder I survived.)
Then in various leaky rentals and farmhouses in VT and NH with various iron stoves and then building a soapstone masonry stove I used for over a decade. And onward through a few more stoves after that. Been pretty complacent in recent years and I guess in a rut with the Jotul F 3CB here and not paying much attention to stove designs pushing forward past this much -- and not much reason to push my own knowledge forward. But looking back, there is room for improvement over this old jotul. So I'm excited more than frustrated.

I guess the biggest challenge is the lack of EPA certification on the Progress, which I will blame on Elon Musk's Doge boys etc. EPA is gutted, limping at best, and now closed for the time being with the shutdown. I guess if I could have just got in line for a Progress and that's that, done deal, it's shipping, I would have stopped looking and thinking about stoves. I am not fully confident that that certification will go through this fall, and therefore am still looking around a bit.

But worst comes to worst, the Jotul is OK and I've got a shed with enough dry wood for a winter.

 

[Todd]

Stopped by Woodstock stoves while running errands. Not surprisingly, they did not get the approval before the EPA got shut down. She said not to worry, no sweat. I went out back and saw a line of Progress stoves she said they are starting ro put together. This was the same sales woman I ordered it from the other week, working on a sale to a couple today ( I tagged along to go into the back.)

Weirdly, in explaining cats to this couple who didn’t seem very stove savvy, she said something like, “It’s just something we have to add for the EPA.” Which makes me question her assurance that the min output would be about the same between the progress and fireview.

According to the EPA cordwood tests the Fireview low end output is about 8,000 BTU and I think the PH is around 13,000 BTU but that’s with a full load so overall the PH holds more BTU. Then again you don’t have to fill the firebox full and that would reduce BTU’s.

 

[John Lehet]

Yes, that was around the discussion when I asked about whether the progress might be too big. She said (after we had been talking a bunch), “It sounds like you know how to burn wood.” — so yeah, smaller fire on a not-as-cold day.

Was talking about stoves with a friend today and talking about my Jotul, and really only in that conversation remembering the difficulty of very-cold-weather small Jotul burning. Hard to control, fills with coals, hard to even fit wood in if the coals are piled up after a day of it, or running away and hard to control if I do manage to fit more than a bit of wood into it. Can’t wait to have something better!

 

[John Lehet]

Wow, the Progress is a lot bigger than the Jotul I have. I looked at the dimensions in the manual, took a tape measure to the hearth.

My hearth now is three big, thick soapstone slabs (1.5" ish thick) floating on mineral wool and boxed around with some hardwood trim. Right under the center area, under the mineral wool, is the old hearth, slate mortared directly to plywood subfloor. Behind is a big slab of granite, which is not in front of any combustible. Empty space, brick chimney, thimble goes through. There is one wooden beam across that space, behind the stove pipe, between the two slabs of granite backing. I've had various chimney people and sweeps here over the 17 years we've been here. Regarding that wooden beam behind the pipe, they've all said variations of, "Technically, not supposed to be OK, but it's fine. I'm not worried." Proximity to stove pipe. Stove pipe with the Progress will probably be a lot cooler than what I've had, since I'm sure the Jotul since a lot more heat up the stack.

Currently I also have a big slab of soapstone behind the 3FCB leaning against the granite slab, like 3 feet tall. I run the stove without a heat shield. The slab is there behind cause I worried the stove threw a laser beam of hot-spot into the granite slab, and I worried about it cracking. That one spot really heats up faster than it diffuses through the granite. The soapstone, however, doesn't seem to get the same kind of hot spot, or at least I don't worry about it. The hearth also gets warm, mostly in front of the stove, after prolonged burning and in the winter gets polished smooth by the cats. It's not that hot, just nice and warm.

Footprint of the Progress fits on it with clearances according to the tape measure, but man, the stove is going to take up a lot of it, and I don't think I can center it relative to the slab of stone behind it to keep the fire door clearance.

I scored I think four big slabs of this thick soapstone for $75 per slab. They were salvaged from a chemistry lab from a NH prep school that was renovating. Took some sanding to get some of the beaker rings off of some of the surfaces. Soapstone supposed to be impervious to chemicals, but I guess strong acid under a beaker can do something.

I'll ask at Woodstock next time I go there or talk to them -- wondering whether the leg-ends of this heavy stove might actually break or crack the slabs of soapstone under it. Soapstone slabs are quite strong to stand on or bang around, but each leg might be about 190 pounds worth of pressure in a small area. Maybe put the legs on some other stone as sort of a buffer? Might have to find some granite tiles or something.

 

[stovelark]

Wow- I've sold a lot of Jotul wood stoves, never have heard someone so seemingly unhappy with a 3CB. That stove's design was pretty solid, the usual only knock of it was the shorter (15-16" ideally) wood pieces that were needed. It does have a RHS standard too, that's why with DW pipe, its rear clearances were 10" to combustibles. Good luck with your new stove, the Woodstock soapstone stoves are beauties, I'd think those will be very pleasing. Should be pretty easy to sell the 3CB too. Stay warm.

 

[begreen]

The F3CB is a little beauty. But many people start out buying too small of a stove, based on price or fear of overheating the space. I'm guilty of that back in 2005 and it's why I came to Craig's BBS that was Hearth.com. That said, there notable quality differences between the F3CB and next size up F400. I was never fond of the air controls on the F3CB.

 

[John Lehet]

It's funny, I've more or less loved this Jotul stove for 14 or 15 years and considered it pretty ultimate. Except for the masonry stove in the superinsulated house I had, this is the best stove I've ever had, so far, out of many. It came over us gradually, then all of a sudden, that it could be better. It's just kind of funny, I wasn't even thinking of getting a new stove except in a very back burner way, until that old Hearthstone came up on the town listserve for pretty cheap. Glad I didn't go for that! But it got me thinking of improvement.

Maybe we won't like the new stove as much as we are thinking we might! I've been reading so much about woodstoves lately, I guess as an alternative to news, and I see that nothing is perfect. I do see that these Woodstock stoves have something of a mystique along those lines -- people love them. The Progress, everyone loves a lot. The Jotul 3 CB, I find a lot online. Of course some people love it, but I also see some of the complaints we have: hard to control, mostly. Small firebox. I don't mean to sound like I'm complaining so much. Just excited for possible improvement. If Woodstock never gets the certification and we keep the F3CB, it won't be the end of the world, except that I have cut a bunch of next year's firewood (standing ash, mostly but not all still living) quite long already, for the new theoretical Progress.

Cutting wood short enough is sometimes tricky in general, though I've gotten better at being more precise in my cutting, marking with chalk along the log before I buck. I always end up with some logs that won't fit into the firebox or that will only fit in when it's perfectly empty and cold. I do in fact have the rear heat shield. It's out in my garage. For some reason I like the idea of heating the stone behind it to radiate rather than sending hot air up to the ceiling.

I think I am seduced by the idea of waking up to a still-warm stove and using perhaps somewhat less wood to be a little warmer with steady temperatures. In our place, in spite of extensive retrofitting, on a really cold morning it's not even a tough call whether to get the stove going or make coffee first. Crouch by the cold stove to make a fire, hope it catches quickly. It's much better now that there is a mini split, but at -10F the mini split is using a lot of electricity to make 15kw of heat, and that's not enough. Before the mini split, brr.

The Jotul has been getting harder to control in cold weather, and that gets a bit scary. I don't think there is any issue with the stove, but rather that I am better at having very dry firewood. In a real cold snap and a weekend day when we are both home feeding it I get a firebox full of really hot coals and can hardly fit more wood in, and then it's a tricky balance keeping it from taking off. Maybe a key damper would help. Small firebox, so it's one log after another all day. I don't know if I'll miss fiddling with the stove so much through the day or evening.

I rebuilt it some years back, so I know that there is no way to shut the air anything like all the way down. Tall chimney, dry wood, well below zero F, and I worry that it will take off and get damaged.

On the plus side, it's very responsive when not out of control. Mostly responsive to how much wood is in it. I think we take for granted that we can control the temperature very much by, "Should we put another log on?"