I need immediate advice from members, firefighters, etc...

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localLEE said:
I'm thinking this may not have been like this long.
Any length of time like that wood have accumulated a mess on stovetop and charring on outer pipe.
MayB.
I agree with Lee. There is no sign of smoke residue on the outside of that pipe, with a gap that big smoke would have to leak, especially during startups. It must have just happen.
Is there anything left holding that elbow together now? Or is the top portion just resting on the bottom part now?
 
I would tend to agree with Lee on this one. I would expect to see some smoke residue from start-ups on the outside where it is pulled apart. If your chimney was taller, I would believe that the draft would pull flue gases up. Did you check your chimney cap? I'm wondering if it was not secured and possibly wind shifted the liner and caused that stressed connection to pull apart. I'm also wondering about thermal expansion of the liner.

Has your draft control been different lately? Glad you are safe from this potentially bad situation. Grab a CO detector and put it up on the ceiling in there for added measure.
 
Guys - since the beginning of having this (3 months ago) I mentioned both on here and to the stove-selling company that during a slow, cold start-up I was getting some smoke appearing out the top and sides of my insert. It was just a bit and it was just wafting into the room and as soon as the fire started it would dissapear.

Both on here and the stove selling company said 'yeah, that CAN happen during a really slow start-up and with a poor draft'....

In light of this, does anyone really think that the gap just appeared?

I understand the lack of soot on the outside of it - I can't explain that. But my problems have been from day 1 and I am only now beginning to remember all the things I enjoyedi experiencing...

One thing I'm curious about: From a carbon monoxide danger point, how is this gap any different from having an open fireplace going up an open masonry chimney? I feel like this is more dangerous and I know its not code, but I'm wondering how its more dangerous. I can't explain the physics of that and would like an explanation if posible.

Joe
 
Can you get a picture of the top? Just for kicks, I would like to see how the terminated it. Is it insulated?
 
Joe, that certainly must have been a rude shock to find that. Makes a body go bezerk, I'm sure, thinking about what was possible. I had a similar experience when I tore out my previous-owner installed gas insert to install my current woodstove and hearth. I found (kid you not) a full roll of paper towels standing on top of the metal surround above the firebox. I about crapped my britches. I'm just thankful that I couldn't stand that thing and hardly ever lit it. One advantage of it it was that my wife had some doubts about the "safety" of a woodstove. I was able to clearly demonstrate that our home safety actually went up a notch.

Look, I'm a lawyer with 20+ years of courtroom experience defending personal injury actions for "Your Huge Red Insurance Company." I'm the last one to stir up litigation, but you seriously need to talk to a lawyer and get some accountability from these folks if they won't do it for themselves. What you are able to prove as damages is another matter though. The law of PA, I'm pretty certain, does not provide for a recovery for things that coulda happened, but if you or your wife could make a case for having CO2 poisoning, with elevated blood gas levels, that would be your pressure point for making these folks pay attention. By the whole though, as I don't have to tell you, you dodged a pretty big bullet. One thing my work has shown me over the years is there is an infinite numbers of ways to buy the farm in this life, and if you think the Universe doesn't roll dice with your existence everyday, you are kidding yourself. Burn safe.
 
I don't think it was left that way. I think because the liner was brought in at such an angle it was pinched aganst the sides of the flue/damper and the expansion+contraction of the hot liner caused the elbow to fail, maybe on the very first fire.

Stuff happens. The good thing about wood smoke is you can find it, not true with gas and sometimes oil. More good news is that you found this, and now you've got all of us checking out stuff.
 
Keep us posted Joe. I hope you kept all of your receipts...and used a reputable stove dealer. Good luck to ya,,,,,Joe....from NJ !!
 
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I would be inclined to say that the break was there from the first time you used the stove, based on the smoke emitted at startup. I would also be inclined to believe that the liner was drawing air through the seam, not exhausting it, once it heated up. This would explain why there is no smoke damage at the seam, and why you are having a tough time with burns. Your liner is likely at room temperature most of the time, when not in use, and assists in drafting at startups. The air movement out of the liner would be drawing from any source more than exhausing through a seam like yours. All in all, a very dangerous situation avoided by not having a complete dislocation of the elbow, which certainly would have caused major damage to your home and possibly yourselves. Likely cause of the seam is the wieght of the liner, thus posing the question: How stable is the liner being held in the chimney?
 
Joe, this for sure explains your problems. Like others have stated, document this with lots of pictures and start taking notes of anything you have experienced from day 1. Lots of that documentation is right here on hearth.com but still make other notes. You might need them in the future.


Immediate response for most would be anger so you are normal in that respect. Giving thanks to the Lord in this one for sure is necessary and I'm glad you and the wife have done that. Further prayers for the fix won't harm a thing and thanks again when this is all over.


For sure I'd start where you bought the stove and try to use that company as the go-between with your dealings with the install company. When talking to the business, although I'd try not to get too angry, I for sure would let them know that I indeed am angry and also that you may consider further action should this not be fixed immediately. I also would hint on the possibility of receiving extra to pay for the added cost of heating your home while you cannot use the insert. That should get their attention. If anyone balked, I would immediately head to an attorney's office.
 
btuser said:
I don't think it was left that way. I think because the liner was brought in at such an angle it was pinched aganst the sides of the flue/damper and the expansion+contraction of the hot liner caused the elbow to fail, maybe on the very first fire.

That's what it looks like to me. But I'm with Lee and the others who think there should be a tons of crud around that broken joint if a lot of wood was put through it the way it is now.
 
joefrompa said:
Guys - since the beginning of having this (3 months ago) I mentioned both on here and to the stove-selling company that during a slow, cold start-up I was getting some smoke appearing out the top and sides of my insert. It was just a bit and it was just wafting into the room and as soon as the fire started it would dissapear.

Both on here and the stove selling company said 'yeah, that CAN happen during a really slow start-up and with a poor draft'....

In light of this, does anyone really think that the gap just appeared?

I understand the lack of soot on the outside of it - I can't explain that. But my problems have been from day 1 and I am only now beginning to remember all the things I enjoyedi experiencing...

One thing I'm curious about: From a carbon monoxide danger point, how is this gap any different from having an open fireplace going up an open masonry chimney? I feel like this is more dangerous and I know its not code, but I'm wondering how its more dangerous. I can't explain the physics of that and would like an explanation if posible.

Joe
Well, in light of that I would have to agree it happen from the start, and your chimney flue must actually have a very good draft (not a poor draft) if it was able to keep drafting and suck all the smoke up the chimney and not allow any to leak out while the fire was burning.

BTW I don't think smoke leaking around your insert is normal or acceptable at any time. Maybe out the door a bit, but not out the sides and top. Good thing you mentioned this to your "stove selling company", the fact that you did and that they ignored it makes them more liable.
 
I have a insulated liner. On here, 2 times recently I posted about how my house FILLED with smoke during a full cold start and without having seriously preheated the flue first. I'm talking dense-fog filled the first floor of the house with smoke.


After thinking through all my experiences, I think that there was always a gap or poor seal here allowing cold air to get sucked into the flue at the bottom and create questionable drafts. Here's some examples:

1. I've had poor draft since day one.
2. Lopi has a damper bypass lever on top to allow for gases to shoot straight up the flue during loading and to prevent puffs from going back into the room. Despite that and slow opening of the door, I've almost always had small puffs of smoke come into the room during routine openings.
3. My stove seems to have severe problems with giving a good, long slow burn when the air is choked.
4. I've had my house fill with smoke twice during full cold starts....but both of those happened after 2 months of burning and never experiencing that before.

Thinking through all this, and the amount of soot on the outside, and the amount of regular noise my stove emits heating up and cooling down (alot of 'tinging'), I think it was poorly installed since day one and alot of cold external-chimney masonry air was pounding the top of the stove and also entering the flue. I think the main seperation occurred sometime after the new year, leading to the worst cold starting situations and draft problems.

One question I have is: this liner is still good, right? It's insulated from top to bottom. It just needs a new elbow at the bottom and a really thorough cleaning of creosote build-up, right?

Joe
 
joefrompa said:
One question I have is: this liner is still good, right? It's insulated from top to bottom. It just needs a new elbow at the bottom and a really thorough cleaning of creosote build-up, right?

Joe

Yep, I can't see any reason why that liner would have been damaged. And I agree that it should be cleaned as well.

But if it were me there would be no way in hell I'd let them put another elbow like that one on. Either more of the damper needs to be cut away or some other solution discovered
 
My 2 cents....


Liner should be fine after cleaning.....UNLESS the installers did something ELSE just as poorly as they attached it to the stove. Perhaps spliced it somewhere?

I would have the entire system inspected by an independent professional if you know one you can trust, if not then someone from out of the area....for peace of mind at least.


For the first 20+ yrs. I burned wood I did not have a CO detector but I have one now. It has not gone off yet (2 yrs.). Get one if you don't have one.

The symptoms you and your wife had are consistent with CO poisoning. Get your blood checked. The excess CO may be gone but there are other factors your doctor can tell if your blood work is abnormal. (Elevated hematocrit might indicate your body compensating for less oxygen making it to your tissues because of chronic low level CO poisoning.) I'm not a doc though but I think you should check with yours....sooner the better.

Praise God you didn't have a fire or your family get deathly sick....there is always something for which to be thankful.

VCResoluteManWifeWarmer (1979)
27 ton wood splitter
Getting[?] GOT! too old for that Monster Maul....yep I got one all the way from back in the day....lol.
 
And if you do prove to have elevated CO blood levels , you've got a whole 'nother issue at hand. Better call the company that made your CO detector! >:-(
 
Joe, I would call an attorney. Never hurts to make a couple of phone calls. Also, I would find out if there is a way to check for CO/2 poisoning (a blood test, or have a professional come to the house and light up a fire while nobody is home).
 
I agree with VCResoluteManWifeWarmer. Carbon Monoxide is "sticky" to your blood and may still be present in you. Depending on how long ago your last burn was and if there are any smokers in the household, are two other factors that will affect the level. Your symptoms sound like CO toxicity to me. If you are still symptomatic get a blood test done.
I would follow all the advice given previously. Document everything. Advise them of your concerns and spell out consequences if the situation is not rectified to your liking. Dont use foul or aggressive language. If you are faced with the same I have found saying "Could you please speak a little slower as I'm having trouble writing this all down" helpful.
 
Thank god no one was seriously injured or killed !!!

Keep us informed !!!! Inquiring minds want to know.

Shawn
 
That is what we, in the wood kiln business, call a "passive damper". You didn't mean to make a passive damper, but there it is. The fact that it's offset a bit could make it worse than a passive damper, but there's a good chance that once a little heat gets into the liner it'd be drawing all the fumes out.

That really is a dangerous situation.
 
Adios or anyone else,

Can anyone explain to me in layman's fashion why this setup would be substantially more dangerous than a traditional open fireplace with a screen left to burn down at night?

That's the one thing I don't fully understand yet (though I know there is more danger) and if someone says "Its not a danger to you or your family; it's like having a normal open fireplace", I want to be able to answer appropriately.

Thanks. Calling up the stove shop within an hour or two.
 
Wow . . . speechless . . . although this certainly explains the previous problems with the stove.
 
newbie here, but isn't it quite possible that it separated when the insert was pulled out? No smoke residue on the separated portion and if you look at the angle of the pipe and where it has been pulled out to, I find it quite feasible that it separated when it was pulled out. if pushed back in, wouldn't the pipe have to go somewhere? I'm assuming it won't move the flex liner UP the chimney, but rather would change the angle of the elbow and push back into the pipe coming from the stove?

Just looks like that could be a possibility. Maybe it was 'broken', but it was 'inside' the other pipe.
 
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