Ideas for Raised Insert Install in a Pre-Fab Heatilator

[ValleyCottageSplitter]

I've been shopping around for something practical and I've found a few good candidates to fill my Heatilator HB42. The Neo 1.6 would be a clean install but it is a little on the small side. The Enviro Venice or Boston 1200 look like better candidates because they don't need a lot of depth. I can almost fit the 1700 series but I'm short about 1/2".

Does anyone know some clean looking ways to add a surround which doesn't block the louvers? I assume the trimmable surround could be used, but it doesn't look as nice.

Last, when is the best time to buy? Are there better deals at the end of winter or is summer a better time? I'd like to see if the tax credit get's extended to 2017.

See the pictures of the fireplace attached.

Thanks.

 

[Handsonautotech]

I've been shopping around for something practical and I've found a few good candidates to fill my Heatilator HB42. The Neo 1.6 would be a clean install but it is a little on the small side. The Enviro Venice or Boston 1200 look like better candidates because they don't need a lot of depth. I can almost fit the 1700 series but I'm short about 1/2".

The main problem is these inserts stick out about 8" from the face. Does anyone know some clean looking tricks to fill the gap underneath? One guy thought it would need additional support for the weight. The second problem is that I have 4" louvers below and above that can't be blocked. One distributor said I could just pull the insert out 1/4" and that would be good enough. Does that sound safe?

Last, when is the best time to buy? Are there better deals at the end of winter or is summer a better time? I'd like to see if the tax credit get's extended to 2017.

Thanks.

I am not sure by your description what you have going on there.

Are you going to need a zero clearence unit?

 

[bholler]

The main problem is these inserts stick out about 8" from the face. Does anyone know some clean looking tricks to fill the gap underneath? One guy thought it would need additional support for the weight. The second problem is that I have 4" louvers below and above that can't be blocked. One distributor said I could just pull the insert out 1/4" and that would be good enough. Does that sound safe?

Read the warning on page 3 of your manual
http://downloads.hearthnhome.com/installManuals/11827.pdf

It says you cant use any parts or accessories that are not listed in their manual with the fireplace. That means that you cannot install an insert in that fireplace.

 

[ValleyCottageSplitter]

Read the warning on page 3 of your manual
http://downloads.hearthnhome.com/installManuals/11827.pdf

It says you cant use any parts or accessories that are not listed in their manual with the fireplace. That means that you cannot install an insert in that fireplace.

Hey bholler,

Thanks for your concern. That warning appears in all Heatilator zero-clearance fireplaces, and 3 other brands that I was able to find. Do zero-clearance approved inserts void UL listing in all zero clearance fireplaces? I can't imagine any manuals would state their fireplace is "approved for stove insert installation". Code aside, wouldn't an insert improve insulation and be safer for the original firebox? I thought part of the point is that the heat doesn't all radiate back into the chimney brick.

I've had several major installers in my area review my installation and recommended the inserts listed in my original post. One installer recommended building some type of custom vented surround for the insert. I wasn't sure if that would become cost-prohibitive where the pay off period is already going to be very long for me.

 

[ValleyCottageSplitter]

I am not sure by your description what you have going on there.

Are you going to need a zero clearance unit?

Yes. I need an insert that is approved for a zero-clearance fireplace. I attached an image of my current fireplace to the original post. The Neo 1.6 and Enviro Venice/Boston are both approved for zero-clearance fireplace use with an insulated 6" liner. Here's the snip from the Enviro manual:

"Both the 1200-C & 1700-C Fireplace Inserts are approved for installed into a zero-clearance fireplaces in the U.S. In Canada refer to local building or fire officials for restrictions and installation inspection".
"This unit was tested and listed UL-1482-2010, ULC-S628-93 by Omni-Test Laboratories".

==>I'm wondering if anyone has experience installing a zero-clearance insert, and what to do about the surround and any supports if necessary. Take a look at the pic attached. Maybe that describes what I'm trying to figure out.

Thanks,
Ian

 

[bholler]

Thanks for your concern. That warning appears in all Heatilator zero-clearance fireplaces, and 3 other brands that I was able to find. Do zero-clearance approved inserts void UL listing in all zero clearance fireplaces?

Yes most have that in the instructions and yes putting an insert in any of those voids the listing. You will also notice that all inserts say they must be installed in a listed fireplace. So basically unless the fireplace is one of the few that says inserts are allowed it is against code to do it.

Code aside, wouldn't an insert improve insulation and be safer for the original firebox? I thought part of the point is that the heat doesn't all radiate back into the chimney brick.

Maybe maybe not. Can the floor of the fireplace support the weight of the insert? What condition is the fireplace in? How long will you be running the insert? Is the liner going to be insulated? The whole thing is that it was not tested or approved so if anything goes wrong your insurance company will have an easy out.

I've had several major installers in my area review my installation and recommended the inserts listed in my original post. One installer recommended building some type of custom vented surround for the insert. I wasn't sure if that would become cost-prohibitive where the pay off period is already going to be very long for me.

There are installers that will do it but that does not mean it is code compliant. The only benefit is if a insured installer does it all of the liability falls on them.

 

[ValleyCottageSplitter]

Thanks for the clarification bholler. I will have to have further discussions with these installers and continue the research. I believe everyone I talked to is insured. I would absolutely have that verified if someone installed one of the units. Again, they are all major fireplace installers/inspectors businesses for NYC and suburbs.

I'm not sure about the weight issue, but the fireplace is in good condition (20yrs old). It was cleaned and inspected this year. There was a brand new refractory panel installed this year. There is an 8" air cooled liner that would definitely be double lined with a 6" insulated liner for this insert. That is clearly spelled out in any of the insert manuals.

That is a bummer. I can look at a free standing install but people are quoting $5k+. The payoff would be more than 10 years.

 

[bholler]

(20yrs old)

For the record the expected lifespan of units like yours is only 20 to 25 years. Less if you are near the coast and have any salt exposure.

Thanks for the clarification bholler. I will have to have further discussions with these installers and continue the research. I believe everyone I talked to is insured. I would absolutely have that verified if someone installed one of the units. Again, they are all major fireplace installers/inspectors businesses for NYC and suburbs.

Like I said If they are insured and they install it the liability falls on them. But to be clear if they are doing this type of install they are either not certified or they are ignoring the recommendations of what ever professional organization certifies them. Because all of the professional organizations clearly say not to do it. Because of that fact I would have to question where else they think it is ok to ignore recommendations and codes.

 

[begreen]

Contact Heatilator support with the specifics and ask if they will give it their blessing. Note that you may have better success getting permission for installing another HHT product like a Quadrafire insert so ask about that as an alternative too.

 

[bholler]

Contact Heatilator support with the specifics and ask if they will give it their blessing. Note that you may have better success getting permission for installing another HHT product like a Quadrafire insert so ask about that as an alternative too.

I have yet to have them say it was ok from the stand point of the fireplace. They will tell you the insert is fine but not the fireplace which is what the instructions say also.

 

[begreen]

Do you recall the reply I posted a few weeks ago from them?

 

[ValleyCottageSplitter]

Another note: the fireplace is 20 years old, barely used until last year. The original owner used it a few times every 5 years. I doubt if he'd burned a 1/2 chord.

"Less if you are near the coast and have any salt exposure." Wait, you talking about a fireplace or a used F150?
Interesting...

So what do you do after the "lifespan"? Do you need a full rebuild of the fireplace? Could be a good excuse to replace it with a nice efficient fireplace. So if all of the clearances/capacities, etc. work out could it be replaced with something like a PE FP30? That wouldn't be so bad... I just don't know how much the cost would be. I'm sure it would throw any possible heat payback out the window.

I remember the post begreen. I'm assuming HHT will only discuss their Quadrafire inserts. Unfortunately none of their inserts fit. The 2700 is too deep, the 3100/4100 are too tall.

==>So if I do figure out some safe/compliant way to install one of these inserts, does anyone have any ideas for the surround and what to do for this gap underneath the insert? Could slots just be cut in the surround? I'm not sure how nice that would look.

 

[bholler]

Do you recall the reply I posted a few weeks ago from them?

Yes And I got the same response. They said that their insert was approved for use in zc fireplaces. They did not tell you it was ok to put an insert into their fireplace. Those things are very very different. And they did not in any way give any authorization to ignore the manual for their fireplace.

 

[bholler]

So what do you do after the "lifespan"?

Well no that is how long it is expected to last. Once you get close to that age you really need to be watching for any problems. And yes the chase cover needs to be pulled off to inspect condition and to ensure it was installed correctly. Your may be and in fact probably is in good condition but being 20 years old it should be checked out very thoroughly. And you should consider the fact that you are going to be putting a system inside a unit that is already past its life expectancy.

==>So if I do figure out some safe/compliant way to install one of these inserts, does anyone have any ideas for the surround and what to do for this gap underneath the insert? Could slots just be cut in the surround? I'm not sure how nice that would look.

Short of a written and signed letter from hht saying you have permission to disregard their manual for the fireplace there is nocompliant way to do it.

 

[begreen]

Yes And I got the same response. They said that their insert was approved for use in zc fireplaces. They did not tell you it was ok to put an insert into their fireplace. Those things are very very different. And they did not in any way give any authorization to ignore the manual for their fireplace.

The language was pretty clear. She said that the insert was acceptable to install in ZC fireplaces and that the EC42 was an acceptable fireplace.

Thank you for your inquiry.

It is approved to put the Quadrafire 2700i into the EC42. The insert is made to be placed in an existing fireplace and the EC42 is acceptable. Please continue to work with your dealer to ensure you are installing everything correctly.

Thank you,

Morgan W

Hearth & Home Technologies Consumer Support

 

[bholler]

The language was pretty clear.

Not really it says nothing about negating the instructions for the EC42. I got exactly the same response when I asked but when I followed up asking if that meant I could disregard the instructions for the EC42 they responded with you need to follow any and all instructions.

 

[Handsonautotech]

==>So if I do figure out some safe/compliant way to install one of these inserts, does anyone have any ideas for the surround and what to do for this gap underneath the insert? Could slots just be cut in the surround? I'm not sure how nice that would look.

Not sure why your asking this, will not the installers figure all of this out? Are you not buying the unit from the installer or hiring the installer from the dealer? I would not be giving the installer any advice on how to do the job, they could then blame you if it catches fire and refuse to cover any claims.

 

[ValleyCottageSplitter]

Not sure why your asking this, will not the installers figure all of this out? Are you not buying the unit from the installer or hiring the installer from the dealer? I would not be giving the installer any advice on how to do the job, they could then blame you if it catches fire and refuse to cover any claims.

Not sure why you're asking this, will not the installers figure all of this out?
No, not necessarily. One installer said he might be able to create a custom surround but was asking about $2k for installation. Some said they would just put some bricks underneath for any needed weight support and I could try to find a way to finish it later (this one charging about $500 for install). I'm trying to see if anyone has a clean install to see what it looks like before talking with some of these installers/dealers.

 

[bholler]

Not sure why your asking this, will not the installers figure all of this out? Are you not buying the unit from the installer or hiring the installer from the dealer? I would not be giving the installer any advice on how to do the job, they could then blame you if it catches fire and refuse to cover any claims.

If they are willing to disregard code and manufacturers instructions as they seem to be you should be questioning them.

 

[Handsonautotech]

If they are willing to disregard code and manufacturers instructions as they seem to be you should be questioning them.

Or not, someone has to keep us firefighters in business.

 

[begreen]

Or not, someone has to keep us firefighters in business.

Has there been a case with this type of insert installation where you got a call (chimney fires excluded)?

 

[bholler]

Has there been a case with this type of insert installation where you got a call (chimney fires excluded)?

So it is ok to disregard code as long as a random sampling of firefighters haven't been on a call caused by that violation? I bet most firefighters have not been on calls concerning slammers either other than chimney fires does that make them ok to?

 

[ValleyCottageSplitter]

If they are willing to disregard code and manufacturers instructions as they seem to be you should be questioning them.

So it is ok to disregard code as long as a random sampling of firefighters haven't been on a call caused by that violation? I bet most firefighters have not been on calls concerning slammers either other than chimney fires does that make them ok to?

Are you basing this "code" on any legal or engineering background or are you just interpreting Heatilator's vague warning statement about not modifying their fireplace? How about not disregarding anything I've asked in this post to get information about stove insert installation whether or not I actually install one? Seems like you've bogged down this thread enough to prevent anyone from actually contributing. Bravo. Luckily I've received some PM's that have been useful.

I've also contacted my insurance company, local building coding office and Heatilator about the safety and compliance of installing a stove insert designed for zero clearance fireplaces. Heatilator has already replied to me with a similar response as begreen posted.

Or not, someone has to keep us firefighters in business.

If that's the case, NYC's firefighers must be all millionaires by now! Maybe you should move to NY.

 

[bholler]

Are you basing this "code" on any legal or engineering background or are you just interpreting Heatilator's vague warning statement about not modifying their fireplace?

Yes I am a professional chimney sweep who has been to many training courses concerning this that were taught by a variety of professionals from lawyers to guys that write ul standards and do the testing. And I have yet to hear any industry leader say it was ok to ignore one set of instructions for a listed appliance in favor of another. Code also backs this up it says very clearly that you need to follow any and all manufacturers instructions. And by the way their warning is not vague at all it is very clear saying do not do it.

Now in your response from hht did they give you authorization to disregard the instructions for the fireplace? I doubt it and if not they have not taken on the responsibility of that install or anything that happens because of it.

If you choose to disregard the code that is on you but be very clear it is against code without question unless you get a written modification to the fireplace instructions from HHT. If you can do that you are golden.

 

[ValleyCottageSplitter]

Yes I am a professional chimney sweep who has been to many training courses concerning this that were taught by a variety of professionals from lawyers to guys that write ul standards and do the testing. And I have yet to hear any industry leader say it was ok to ignore one set of instructions for a listed appliance in favor of another. Code also backs this up it says very clearly that you need to follow any and all manufacturers instructions. And by the way their warning is not vague at all it is very clear saying do not do it.

Now in your response from hht did they give you authorization to disregard the instructions for the fireplace? I doubt it and if not they have not taken on the responsibility of that install or anything that happens because of it.

If you choose to disregard the code that is on you but be very clear it is against code without question unless you get a written modification to the fireplace instructions from HHT. If you can do that you are golden.

I've specifically asked HHT about the wording in the fireplace manual whether or not "altering the fireplace" includes installing a fireplace insert and whether that means installing an insert would "disregard instructions for the fireplace". No one is questioning whether disregarding a safety warning in the manual or manufacturer's instruction is against code. The only disagreement is whether this blanket statement applies to installing a UL listed fireplace insert designed for a zero clearance fireplace.

By the way, I forgot to mention, my fireplace has a UL plate on the inside which has a line that reads: "Do not use a stove insert or other products unless specified for use with this product". Seems like a strange message if no stove inserts are to be used in the fireplace. I take that as meaning this fireplace yields to instruction and proper installation of a UL listed insert. I'll let HHT and my local building code office make that determination.