I'm new. Good afternoon! I have some questions

[JoshuaDOC]

Good afternoon,

This seems like as likely a place as any to get answers regarding my impending purchase of a wood burnign stove as an accessory heat source in my home. I'll start with the background:

1) Home built in 1919. Typical colonial style. About 1,900 sq. ft. Two story with walk out basement.
2) The existing chimney has two flues. One is occupied by the oil furnace. The other is unoccupied.
3) The house originally had some form of blown heat. There are chases and registers in some of the rooms still. Perhaps it wasn't blown and simply used convection?

What I would like to do is install a simple wood stove in the basement and use the existing unoccupied flue. I'm thinking of finding a simple stove. Nothing fancy as no one will see it. I will open up the first floor registers and reopen the large floor grates (I have the cast iron grates in the attic). I hope to be able to use convection to heat the home and cut my bills a bit. The cost of heating oil is just ludicrous and getting no cheaper.

I am tempted to call a local wood stove company to look over the house and advise me on how to proceed in regard to my chimney. Really that's all the help I need. I can install my stove myself and would rather buy it used than new. My concern is that the wood stove places have incentive to tell me that i need to spend a lot (or any) money to prepare the flue for the stove. I make it a point in life to never ask someone for advise when that advise could result in them earning my money.

So here I am... I know a lot about a lot of things but have never done masonry work and never done any HVAC so I'm kind of in the dark as to what I might need to do for the chimney.

If anyone has any advice I would appreciate it. I'm just trying to avoid spending more money on the basis of my ignorance (I have no problem spending out of need). How would I go about assessing the chimney and it's feasibility for use in this capacity? Is there a person who might be impartial in providing this type of assessment (as in they don't stand to make a ton of money by telling me the chimney needs work)?

Thank you very much for any responses.

Josh

 

[begreen]

Welcome Josh. Sounds like the house may have had an old gravity vent, coal system at one time. If at all possible, consider putting the stove on the first floor. Heating from the basement is inefficient. If the basement is uninsulated figure at least 20000 btus of the stove's output getting sucked into the earth. If you can locate the stove on the first floor and the general floorplan is somewhat open, then you'll use less wood to be more comfortable.

 

[JoshuaDOC]

I would like to avoid the first floor as then I have a safety concern with the dog/kid. I understand what you are saying though and will consider that. The cost will definitely increase if I put it on the first floor though. It will mean I need a hearth of some sort and will need to pierce the masonry for the flue. As it stands there is an existent penetration in the chimney in the basement already. My other concern is the ability to traffic the lumber from the outdoors into the house. If I have the stove in the basement fueling is much more efficient. I can use the walk out door and store wood in the basement foyer. That said the basement is always warm anyhow. I am already paying to heat that with the furnace. In essence having a stove in the basement would ease the load on my furnace directly.

If what you are saying is true (and I'm sure it's valid) the cheapest thing to do might be to insulate the basement and not go to wood heat at all...

Bear in mind I want to use wood as an accessory to oil not a replacement for.

Last winter we kept the house 52 degrees. I want to be able to set the thermostats at 45 this coming winter and use the wood stove for comfort warmth in the evening/night and try to keep the furnace from turning on as often.

All that aside... my primary concern has to do with the chimney. The eventual location of the stove is of import but my questions are more in regard to whether or not I need work done on the chimney and if so what type of work may potentially need to BE done.

 

[myzamboni]

The dog will not be an issue with the stove. For the kid, you can put up a safety gate around the fence.

 

[JoshuaDOC]

Then I guess I should move my oil furnace into my living room as well eh?

 

[begreen]

He speaks the truth, your dog will gravitate to the stove like a magnet and will lie contentedly in front of it most of the winter. Kids instinctively seem to know that a stove is something to give wide berth, particularly if mom and dad reinforce this with a cautious attitude towards the stove.

Tightening up the basement is a good alternative plan. Any thing you can do to reduce heat loss is a long term win. Caulking the sill first is a good idea too.

Let's assume you are going for a basement installation and are frugal. No problem there, but it must be a safe installation. That is one place where it is not a good place to sit on the wallet. Most current stoves take a 6" flue. You'll need to measure the current flue pipe and determine if it is tile lined, its size and condition. Have it inspected by a professional sweep very carefully. If it is not in perfect condition, it may need a stainless steel liner or poured flue lining. Do that part right and safely, the flue system is half of the stove. For an inexpensive stove I'd consider an Englander 30NC. It's a very serious heater at a great price.

For the floor vents, I'd need to know more about where they are located (inside or outside walls) and their sizes. What is in place of the grates now? Caveat, there will be an increased risk of fire hazard if a blaze started in the basement. Nowadays a fire damper with a fusible link is recommended for all floor penetrations. And the house should be equipped with several smoke and CO detectors kept in good order.

 

[JoshuaDOC]

He speaks the truth, your dog will gravitate to the stove like a magnet and will lie contentedly in front of it most of the winter. Kids instinctively seem to know that a stove is something to give wide berth, particularly if mom and dad reinforce this with a cautious attitude towards the stove.

Seems logical. Thanks.

Tightening up the basement is a good alternative plan. Any thing you can do to reduce heat loss is a long term win. Caulking the sill first is a good idea too.

I seal the basement as tightly as possible every winter. I really do need new windows though. This point does stick for me though. You are saying essentially that I am losing THAT much heat with my current furnace... My basement is warm in the winter. As warm as the rest of the house. The boiler is in the basement. The furnace runs to heat the boiler. That means my furnace is running THAT much more just to heat the boiler. I should just build a closet around the furnace...

Let's assume you are going for a basement installation and are frugal. No problem there, but it must be a safe installation. That is one place where it is not a good place to sit on the wallet.

Understood and I agree.

Most current stoves take a 6" flue. You'll need to measure the current flue pipe and determine if it is tile lined, its size and condition.

The existing flue is square and not much larger than 6"x6" (probably 8"x8" inside) and is brick and mortar inside. The basement penetration is a 6" pipe which currently has a cap on it.

Have it inspected by a professional sweep very carefully. If it is not in perfect condition, it may need a stainless steel liner or poured flue lining. Do that part right and safely, the flue system is half of the stove.

THAT'S the info I was looking for. I want to avoid calling the wood stove dealer to asses whether or not I need expensive chimney work. I would rather speak to someone impartial. Just as with my cars... I ALWAYS diagnose them prior to bringing them to the shop (if I even bring them to the shop). I don't trust people who stand to make money off me to be honest. No offense to anyone in the business but it's human nature to err to your bias... and the wood stove people have a bias toward me spending more.

For an inexpensive stove I'd consider an Englander 30NC. It's a very serious heater at a great price.

I will look into it. If the stove is on the first floor look matters. Tremendously. If it isn't... it's not so much a big deal if it's pretty.

Thanks for the post. Will be contacting a professional sweep shortly.

 

[WOODBUTCHER]

All that aside... my primary concern has to do with the chimney. The eventual location of the stove is of import but my questions are more in regard to whether or not I need work done on the chimney and if so what type of work may potentially need to BE done.

Most recomendations here will suggest a SS flue liner for better draft performance and efficiency reguardless of a basement/1st floor setup. Where in the house (what room) would you have to bust through into your chimney and how big is the room. As BaGreen has said an open floor plan is better.


One more thing........if you are really serious about getting a wood stove you'll need to start drying your wood as you read this.

WoodButcher

 

[begreen]

The good news is it sounds like you have a moderately protected basement. The heat losses in the boiler system may be due to uninsulated piping runs. Having a bit of extra heat there is helping keep your first floor floors warm, so that can be considered a benefit by some. The bad news is that you can't connect the woodstove to the old brick and mortar chimney flue as is. It must be up to current firecode standards which means lined.

 

[Adios Pantalones]

"If what you are saying is true (and I’m sure it’s valid) the cheapest thing to do might be to insulate the basement and not go to wood heat at all… "

The concern is that when you put the heat output into the basement, then the cement sucks it up. The rate of heat loss is related to the difference in temp between the air and the object- so heat the space you're in directly whenever possible. An oil or gas burner puts heat into air or water that is then delivered to the room of interest, rather than heating the basement and expecting to heat by convection.

 

[JoshuaDOC]

All that aside... my primary concern has to do with the chimney. The eventual location of the stove is of import but my questions are more in regard to whether or not I need work done on the chimney and if so what type of work may potentially need to BE done.

Most recomendations here will suggest a SS flue liner for better draft performance and efficiency reguardless of a basement/1st floor setup. Where in the house (what room) would you have to bust through into your chimney and how big is the room. As BaGreen has said an open floor plan is better.

The chimney was laid up originally with a bend in the attic... I suspect that means I'd need a new chimney to have a SS liner?

The first floor is pretty open. All arches and wide doors. The chimney goes up right through the middle of the house. The stove would be in the dining room dead center of the first floor.

One more thing........if you are really serious about getting a wood stove you'll need to start drying your wood as you read this.

WoodButcher

I have access to wood THIS year that was cut last. This year I'll be cutting/splitting for next.

 

[jpl1nh]

"If what you are saying is true (and I’m sure it’s valid) the cheapest thing to do might be to insulate the basement and not go to wood heat at all… "

The concern is that when you put the heat output into the basement, then the cement sucks it up. The rate of heat loss is related to the difference in temp between the air and the object- so heat the space you're in directly whenever possible. An oil or gas burner puts heat into air or water that is then delivered to the room of interest, rather than heating the basement and expecting to heat by convection.

Might be cheaper now, but the stove is gonna pay for itself in the near future. I'd insulate the basement and put in the stove and you'll cut your oil bill by 1/2, 3/4's, maybe more. They make flexible liners for chimneys like yours.

 

[Carl]

I
Last winter we kept the house 52 degrees. I want to be able to set the thermostats at 45 this coming winter and use the wood stove for comfort warmth in the evening/night and try to keep the furnace from turning on as often.

All that aside... my primary concern has to do with the chimney. The eventual location of the stove is of import but my questions are more in regard to whether or not I need work done on the chimney and if so what type of work may potentially need to BE done.

At 52 degrees for your house temps during the winter you must be wearing jackets.

My wife nor I would or could survive at those temps.

 

[JoshuaDOC]

I
Last winter we kept the house 52 degrees. I want to be able to set the thermostats at 45 this coming winter and use the wood stove for comfort warmth in the evening/night and try to keep the furnace from turning on as often.

All that aside... my primary concern has to do with the chimney. The eventual location of the stove is of import but my questions are more in regard to whether or not I need work done on the chimney and if so what type of work may potentially need to BE done.

At 52 degrees for your house temps during the winter you must be wearing jackets.

My wife nor I would or could survive at those temps.

It's not warm... The dog wears a jacket. I just do more work. We got used to it. Our friends and family think we are insane though :D

 

[begreen]

My basement is warm in the winter. As warm as the rest of the house.

Sounds like the reverse is true. The basement is as cold as the rest of the house. A woodstove anywhere will greatly increase your comfort, but with the nice floorplan, I'd think a lot about how to fit it into the dining room. You will be so much warmer. Is the house 1900 sq ft including or excluding the basement?

You have real space constraints so you will have to guide us as to what area is possible in the dining room. If that's what you decide, post a shot of the proposed location and we can guide from there. If you decide on the basement, I'd get a big Englander, Drolet, Kodiak or Napoleon stove.

 

[JoshuaDOC]

Well my point is that the basement stays warm... It has a radiator and it has the heating pipes exposed. I guess I need to insulate those.

Yes it's 1,900 without the basement.

I'm very seriously considering your advice. The only thing really standing in the way of the stove being upstairs is the cost (I need to buy a pretty one) and the fact that my wife doesn't like wood heat very much. It's too dry for her tastes. I'll need to boil a ton of water on the stove.

Another question... How do you provide oxygen for your stoves? I would expect that burning fuel and air in the house and blowing the exhaust gas out the chimney will create negative pressure and cause drafts. Is there a technique people use to supply air to the combustion chamber to equalize pressure? Can I pipe that air in from outside? Are there stoves fitted with inlets to allow this? I really know little about home heating... ugh. I despise my ignorance. I'm not a dumb guy but man... I despise my ignorance.

 

[Jags]

Many stoves have the ability to be fed air through an OAK (outside air kit), that attaches to the air intake of the stove. Using an OAK does present an issue, and that is the stove must be located on or near an outside wall.

 

[Wet1]

With a space that size, multiple floors, and having an open floor plan, I'd most definitely stick the stove on the 1st floor if possible. You'll need a bigger stove and go through more wood if the stove is located in the basement, and still not get as much heat in the actual living area(s)... not to mention you'll get very little of that heat up to the 2nd story, where I'd presume the bedrooms are. From an efficiency and overall comfort standpoint, I'd place it in that central location on the first floor.

 

[begreen]

All good questions Josh. We all had to start learning somewhere. Keep them coming. Outside air kits are available for many EPA stoves.

Your concern about the humidity is valid, especially if you have had the house at 52 degrees. That is much closer to the dew point than 72 degrees. A separate humidifier or a large open pot of water on the stove will probably be a good thing to have. Interior humidity will drop dramatically in the winter regardless of heat source unless you are heating with a hot tub or a leaky steam system. People often run their houses hotter than they normally might when heating with a wood stove. That's what make them feel dry, not the source of the heat. This is because of the difference between the dew point and interior temp. It's a misconception that hot water heat is drier than a woodstove. Hot water heat is a sealed system and does nothing to increase humidity.

 

[fossil]

A woodstove is a space heater (radiation & convection). Put it in the basement, the basement will be toasty warm. Some warmth will inevitably migrate up into the house where you're living, but the basement will be the most comfortably warm space in the structure. Put the woodstove on the first floor, and that will be the most comfortable, and the floors above better than they would be with the stove in the basement. Outside air's certainly a credible way to go, but not essential. The stove's not going to produce a noticeable negative pressure in your home unless you live in the space shuttle. Stove blower kits, ceiling fans and other air movers can greatly enhance the heating effectiveness of a woodstove, through forced convection /mixing. Wood heat's not any "dryer" than any other kind of heat. In winter, when the outside air temp is very low, the relative humidity of the air in a warm home is low, regardless of what kind of heating you have. A humidifier (or a pot of gently simmering water on top of a nice wood stove) will help. Just some thoughts to pour into the mix. Rick

 

[savageactor7]

Hello Josh I have a house similar to yours even with the bent chimney in the attic....but I replaced it 20 years ago.

My recommendation is to forget heating the cellar, get a free standing stove in the central part of the house and don't worry about the children. Just tell 'em it hot and they'll be quick to understand. We raised 4 children around stoves they had to navigate around and it's no different than teaching your children how to cross a street safely...surprisingly even toddlers are quick to catch on, with stoves anyway.

You'll never be happy or warm with a stove in the cellar...btw i suspect and am willing to bet your chimney is in the center of the house....that's perfect for a wood stove.