Trying to read up and soak in the boiler knowledge. This is a newer consideration for my heating. At first I was going to just add a second stove in my basement and now here I am looking for alternatives . I keep reading people buy indoor boilers and place them in a detached building/shed/wood storage building. I starTed reading about a wood master flex fuel which sounds cool. Are these units able to be placed outside in a building? What direction would you guys go? I do like the sound of pellet and cordwood. I heat a 1700 sq ft a frame home with 20 ft cathedral ceilings and a finished basement. I'm completely new to this boiler stuff so bare with me.
indoor boiler confusion?
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I am in the same state as you (soaking up everything). This forum is greater for research.
According to 5.1 in this PDF, it must be installed indoors: (broken link removed to http://www.woodmaster.com/flex-fuel-owners-manual.pdf?v2)
That would be for these models I believe:
(broken link removed to http://www.woodmaster.com/flexfuel.php)
Read https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/biomass-hydronics-training-pdf.137252/
You're going to see the term "Heat Loss Calculation", quite often. It's essentially giving your house a number which represents the amount of heat being lost over
a period of time. The goal, and I will be corrected if wrong, is to make sure your boiler and heating equipment are able to keep up with that number, plus any expected
growth (for example, you decide to throw a man cave up 30' away from the house).
According to 5.1 in this PDF, it must be installed indoors: (broken link removed to http://www.woodmaster.com/flex-fuel-owners-manual.pdf?v2)
That would be for these models I believe:
(broken link removed to http://www.woodmaster.com/flexfuel.php)
Read https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/biomass-hydronics-training-pdf.137252/
You're going to see the term "Heat Loss Calculation", quite often. It's essentially giving your house a number which represents the amount of heat being lost over
a period of time. The goal, and I will be corrected if wrong, is to make sure your boiler and heating equipment are able to keep up with that number, plus any expected
growth (for example, you decide to throw a man cave up 30' away from the house).
So do these install like owb? I have a detached garage that would be a great home for it, lean to that holds about 6 cord of wood attached to back side as well... it's about 45 ft away. Are lines trenches and ran into house with pex? Is storage in my basement as well?
Someone will comment on your storage. From my reading, it seems the storage goes basically where you can put it. It's hard to throw a 1000 gallon
propane tube in your basement, but smaller tanks you probably could.
If you're running pipe from your boiler to your house, it will need to be insulated (look up Thermopex, Logstor, Rehau, Uponor for the type of pipe that gets used).
Recommendations I've seen, try to get beneath your area's frost line, not because of freezing, but because of the possibility of frost heaving pushing rocks up
through your pipe and severing it. This was something I read, not my experience.
I got off the phone earlier this week with a pipe dealer saying that you will want to size your pipe diameter to allow the least resistance possible, if you're going to
install it away from your house. From what I understand, you can expect $9 to $15 per foot for the pipe.
I don't own one, but according to *this* video, he says it can be installed outdoors.
The problem is, the manual says indoors only and their brochures only show it in buildings. I'd say no.
(broken link removed to http://www.woodmaster.com/WoodMaster_FlexFuel_Brochure.pdf)
My rule of thumb, the prettier it is, the more likely you're putting it inside.
propane tube in your basement, but smaller tanks you probably could.
If you're running pipe from your boiler to your house, it will need to be insulated (look up Thermopex, Logstor, Rehau, Uponor for the type of pipe that gets used).
Recommendations I've seen, try to get beneath your area's frost line, not because of freezing, but because of the possibility of frost heaving pushing rocks up
through your pipe and severing it. This was something I read, not my experience.
I got off the phone earlier this week with a pipe dealer saying that you will want to size your pipe diameter to allow the least resistance possible, if you're going to
install it away from your house. From what I understand, you can expect $9 to $15 per foot for the pipe.
I don't own one, but according to *this* video, he says it can be installed outdoors.
The problem is, the manual says indoors only and their brochures only show it in buildings. I'd say no.
(broken link removed to http://www.woodmaster.com/WoodMaster_FlexFuel_Brochure.pdf)
My rule of thumb, the prettier it is, the more likely you're putting it inside.
Might be a real slick way to heat my house and garage/shop. Especially with my wood storage also. Just confuses me hearing people say they heat their building from the radiant released heat from the unit yet still send hot water to an exchanger located in plenum? Seems loosing radiant heat in the building would effect efficiency going back to the house. Do these things eat about the same amount of wood as say an englander nc30 lol? If so I'm in
Chances are, the people that have forced air and radiant heat are retrofitting their house. I will be in the same boat, I plan on radiant flooring my main level, plus having a heat exchanger in my furnace, but I still need to research deeper.
No clue on it versus the englander. Keep in mind though, these things will likely burn as long as your englander (4->6 hrs I am told), but the point isn't to generate the radiant, it's to heat the storage, which will last as long as your storage's insulation + your heat loss allows. I'm hearing people talk 10 to 12hrs, but really, I have no clue.
If it is that, then it likely has your Englander beat by the number of fills required, but from what I can tell, this is a large box (on the 60) than the Englander.
maple1
Minister of Fire
I have my boiler, storage and whole winters wood in my basement. That's the way I like it. The whole kit & kaboodle takes up about 12' x 20' of floor space. A new garage is hopefully somewhere in my future - if I decide I want hydronic heat out there, I can run lines from the house to the garage. There are a lot of options with this stuff in how you can do it, it would come down to what is important for you. But if you don't want or can't do like me with everything in the basement, a dedicated boiler shed that is insulated & has everything in it is also a good option. (You could also do that but put your storage in the basement too..). Oversize it a bit & you have a nice heated workshop/man cave. Things get sticky though if you're thinking about putting a boiler in a garage - wood burning + gasoline power stuff is a big no-no for some insurance providers. All kinds of choices. But a gasifying boiler + storage should be way ahead of an Englander in every way thinkable.
If you just want to heat the house though, there are also very nice & capable clean burning add-on furnaces too. Tundra, Kuuma, Caddy....
If you just want to heat the house though, there are also very nice & capable clean burning add-on furnaces too. Tundra, Kuuma, Caddy....
It's a bit overwhelming when you discover this site and start learning from ground zero. Most of us have been there, but take your time. Many love their wood boilers in the house because of the convenience. Equally as many of us who would never have them in the house. In house is more efficient since the energy off the boiler isn't really "lost", out building is more carefree about the smoke, soot, bugs, and general tidiness. I'm of the out building crowd and am very happy. All my mess from splitting, stacking storing, and burning is out at the boiler barn. Maple above is of the in-house and very happy. Best thing you can do is go see a working system near you. Lots of guys here from Ohio. After operating for 5 years without storage, I would never have a wood boiler system without it. Night and day difference in freeing you from a set boiler feeding time. Welcome.
Welcome to the forums!
I just wanted to say, if a woodstove meets your needs to heat that part of the space, it would be my first choice. No pumps, no electricity, and its going to be MUCH less expensive than a proper boiler setup. Rough numbers are maybe $2000 needed for the Englander NC-30 (assuming you need some chimney work done), and figure at least $10k for a boiler system. And thats to start.
Of course you can do things cheaper depending on what you do yourself and can source locally, but its good to have a budget in mind when you go through this process.
As noted above, both inside and outside setups have their perks. But a boxer-short reload before bed can be nice. A smoke back-puff in the basement is not
I just wanted to say, if a woodstove meets your needs to heat that part of the space, it would be my first choice. No pumps, no electricity, and its going to be MUCH less expensive than a proper boiler setup. Rough numbers are maybe $2000 needed for the Englander NC-30 (assuming you need some chimney work done), and figure at least $10k for a boiler system. And thats to start.
Of course you can do things cheaper depending on what you do yourself and can source locally, but its good to have a budget in mind when you go through this process.
As noted above, both inside and outside setups have their perks. But a boxer-short reload before bed can be nice. A smoke back-puff in the basement is not
Good lord! Lot to soak in. Garage is a no go I forgot about gas fumes etc . An awesome saw splitter/workshop + wood storage sounds great tho! But addin to cost were getting up there. I'm also still on a kumma add on furnace kick. We have very large basement windows which one will be turned into a chute or possibly a set of bilco doors which I really like! The nc30 does a pretty good job 95% of time except for cold snaps. Our basement sits at to cold of a temp to enjoy the finished space. We have a 2nd chimney in our basement already and I debated on just lining and installing a 2nd stove. If I go add on furnace I would need to core out the foundation and go up the side of the house because my lp gas furnace is on the other side of the house. I have thought a lot obut heating full time from the basement with a stand alone stove . The heat rise will be much slower which is good compares to our current setup. I really enjoy my time cutting splitting stacking . In 10 years I may sing a different tune who knows. But the flex being able to burn pellets sounds enticing. I watched their video and the rep saus they don't recommend basement installs although it can be done?!? Just when I thought I had it figured out I start reading the boiler forum.
The heat rise will be much slower which is good compares to our current setup. I really enjoy my time cutting splitting stacking . In 10 years I may sing a different tune who knows. But the flex being able to burn pellets sounds enticing. I watched their video and the rep saus they don't recommend basement installs although it can be done?!? Just when I thought I had it figured out I start reading the boiler forum.
I got nervous around pellet stoves when I started to read about hopper fires. Unlike a wood stove, where the wood is in the only place where it is going to burn, a hopper fire happens external to the burn chamber.
On the lower side of the spectrum, if your laws allow it, there's also the Englander 28-3500. I don't have a clue if it is any good, but I know I was considering it. From what I understand though, it's not a reburner....
GS7
Member
My Flex Fuel unit is located in my boiler room in my basement with four 220 gallon storage tanks. The unit must be placed inside a building. The unit can be located inside an out building separate from the structure it serves. To that extent they call it an indoor outdoor unit.
Found your initial post GS7.
So it looks like it isn't an automatic switch between the two.
Edit note:
I guess what I'd like to know about the flex fuel (GS7), how well or efficient are the pellet burns compared to the wood. Do you find you favour pellets for ease, but wood for cost?
So it looks like it isn't an automatic switch between the two.
Edit note:
I guess what I'd like to know about the flex fuel (GS7), how well or efficient are the pellet burns compared to the wood. Do you find you favour pellets for ease, but wood for cost?
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GS7
Member
Lines would be insulated pex coming from an outside building. Storage can
The Flex Fuel in the USA cannot auto switch from wood to pellets, you'd have to swap out the 4" by 6" grate to change fuels. I'm burning wood right now, so I reload the firebox with a load of wood while my storage is charged, then the igniter starts the next fire when the storage temperature drops below the set point. I have used the pellet mode, and it is great, you fill the pellet hopper and walk away. Igniter keeps things going firing up as needed to charge storage...but I like using wood because it's free!
The way it heats there is no perceivable difference from my oil furnace. With that said since I have forced air, I go to the boiler room often still amazed that gasification units are real, and really heat your whole home. Rather than pinch myself, I place my hand on the steel burner cover of the oil furnace and say YES ice cold, the gasifier is really doing the heating.
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GS7
Member
No it's not (a bit more detail in other post). The only pellets I've used was a quick test with pellets from Lowes and Home Depot. Home Depot pellets called Heat'rs I'd never use again if they were free. (LOTS of ash, very sticky?). The Lowes Green Team I believe? were flawless. Both fuels burn very, very clean. You hit it on the head. Pellets for more convenience, but can't beat free wood.
GS7
Member
Only had this unit since August 2014. Finished self installation at the end of November 2014. I wish it could do auto switch over like it's version in Austria Europe the Therminator 2. Not complaining, I can handle swapping out a steel grate LOL (bit more on this in other post)
Also, you might want to look at a Kumma hot air furnace? Quite a few satisfied customers on here.
I have a Gassifier located in another building. Pipe the water from my "garage" (now classified a s a wood storage facility) into my home. 50ft of insulated pex(undeground) and 50 ft of copper across my basement to storage. Basically 100ft between boiler and storage. For most of winter I start one fire a day. Usually when i get home at night. If i need to refill, the kids are always coming and going after supper. They refill. Now I'm down to one teen in the house. I'm already thinking about a covered walkway between house and garage. Or maybe adopting a partially grown kid? But, for me, i'll always prefer my boiler in another building. Especially one that i can put my wood in with a FEL. All my wood is stacked on 3 sided pallets. Look at my avatar. I grew up in an old farm house. 3 wood stoves/15 to 18 cord of wood......plus I was the youngest, my sibs had flown the coop. I don't mind burning wood, but do not like to rehandle anything 3 times. Thats one thing you need to keep in mind. All wood should be dried at least 1 season. So if you think you'll need 6 cord? Make room for 12 cord. If i wasn't so spoiled I would have built a wood shed that is divided in two, with a nice walkway in between stacks, for the wheel barrow.
I have a Gassifier located in another building. Pipe the water from my "garage" (now classified a s a wood storage facility) into my home. 50ft of insulated pex(undeground) and 50 ft of copper across my basement to storage. Basically 100ft between boiler and storage. For most of winter I start one fire a day. Usually when i get home at night. If i need to refill, the kids are always coming and going after supper. They refill. Now I'm down to one teen in the house. I'm already thinking about a covered walkway between house and garage. Or maybe adopting a partially grown kid?
But, for me, i'll always prefer my boiler in another building. Especially one that i can put my wood in with a FEL. All my wood is stacked on 3 sided pallets. Look at my avatar. I grew up in an old farm house. 3 wood stoves/15 to 18 cord of wood......plus I was the youngest, my sibs had flown the coop. I don't mind burning wood, but do not like to rehandle anything 3 times. Thats one thing you need to keep in mind. All wood should be dried at least 1 season. So if you think you'll need 6 cord? Make room for 12 cord. If i wasn't so spoiled I would have built a wood shed that is divided in two, with a nice walkway in between stacks, for the wheel barrow.
maple1
Minister of Fire
One other option if considering heating water with pellets that doesn't get much mention around here is a pellet head in an oil boiler. I don't know if that's because they don't work that great or just haven't caught on yet - but I think I would be checking it out if I had an oil boiler & pellets was an option.
My boiler has a pellet head option too, but it's not an automatic switch. You'd have to take the head off & on as needed.
My boiler has a pellet head option too, but it's not an automatic switch. You'd have to take the head off & on as needed.
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