Insert Questions: Easy Lighting Methods, Smoke Control, Improving Efficiency, Ash Clean up

[jdlev]

Hi Guys,

So, glad I did my research before trying to connect a log lighter to a fireplace insert after reading all the 'KABOOM!' threads. With as forgetful and easily distracted as I am, we probably would have blown the insert to the moon, lol!

We've been using the insert for a little more than a year now, and have been very pleased with the results. It sure did help with our propane costs for our house (not cheap keeping a 4k sqft home warm w/ LP)! Had a few questions about lighting, smoke, and improving efficiency.

Wood Burning Fireplace Insert Easy Start, Log Lighter Methods
What I really need is something that I can use on a repetitive basis with the door shut so no smoke gets back into the room. What products are available on the market to help easily start the fire in the fire box? I've considered modifying an electric bbq starter and somehow plugging that into the unit but have no idea how well that would work, plus you're probably talking 15 minutes to get the thing to ignite.

Smoke Control

We've been using a propane torch for about the first 3 minutes or so, but we have to leave the front door to the unit cracked so smoke get's back into the room - especially if the flue is cold and/or it's windy outside! I've tried mitigating the issues of negative house pressurization or the cold flue by starting the fires as fast as possible, cracking a window, heating the flue with a small space heater and met with varying results.

Ash Control / Cleaning
We burn a lot of wood, and have a fire going probably 60-70% of the time throughout the winter. I'd say after 3-4 fires, we have to clean out the insert of all the ash. I've tried the ash vacuums, and unless you wait at least a day (and usually 2), there are always hot coals left over. You shovel the ash out into a bucket, the ash floats all over the room. You use a vacuum and don't wait until the coals are smolder...the vacuum eventually melts or the filter gets holes - so now you have a giant plum of ash blasted into the room every time you start the thing. Just stirring up the ash with the shovel throws a bunch of stuff in the air you don't want to breathe.

The only thing I've thought of is putting a vacuum outside and running a 20' hose through a window to clean out the insert...still, that doesn't solve the hot coals issues.


Thanks for any advice/tips in advance!

 

[begreen]

SuperCedars work great for firestarting. They burn for a long time. Most folks quarter them. One or two quarters will start the fire quickly.
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/super-cedar.163954/

Negative pressure can be tough to deal with in some cases. Some people say that the put a candle in the stove to keep the draft going. How tall is the chimney liner on the insert?

Only use a vacuum specifically designed for ash cleaning in the firebox. Ash cleaning with a regular vac could be dangerous and a fire hazard. I keep the ash bucket tilted right up to the stove door then shovel the ash in slowly into the bucket. I have seen someone rig up a remote vac with a long hose. For safety the hose is connected to a fitting on a 5 gallon bucket with water in it, then another hose is connected to draw the ash. This way hot embers drop into the water. But there are caveats. Go to the Gear forum here and search on ash vacuum. There are lots of threads on this topic with suggestions and reviews.
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/ash-vacuum.158933

 

[jdlev]

Hi begreen,

Want to say I had to get the 30' insert when I did the install (during which time I vowed never to get on the roof again lol), and I had 4'-5' leftover, so I'm guessing around a 25' liner.

I already burned a hole in the filter, lol. Nobody's fault but my own. Just being careless. I'll definitely look into the double chamber design. It would be interesting to see if there's enough suction from the 2hp shop vac to handle about a 20' hose. Sounds like a good idea worth trying as the only thing I think I'd need is some extra hose.

Thanks

 

[DuaeGuttae]

I’ll second the Super Cedar recommendation. We used to use them for cold starts in a basement insert, and they were great.

I have nothing to contribute about an ash vacuum. We were given a scoop called an “Ash Dragon” though, and we loved that for cleaning the stove. We would use a rake to separate coals and one good scoop with the Ash Dragon took most of the ash out. We could just close the lid and carry it out to the ash bucket on the concrete patio. Very little dust inside. I definitely preferred it to the bucket and shovel.

 

[yooper08]

On a cold start, do you use the top down method? There are a variety of methods to warm up the flue (torches, candles, space heaters, hair dryers, paper) but an additional load just to keep the insert warmer for longer will keep you from having cold starts, especially if you're already burning 70% of the time. Where is your insert installed, a basement? Is the liner insulated? If you have ceiling penetrations into the attic space, that can significantly add to the stack effect.

As for ash clean out, leave the ash in there longer. You can leave it so that there's a bed of ash 2" thick. I have the same insert as you and can go a week of 24/7 burning before I think about scooping out ash. Doesn't necessarily answer the question of how to a better job, but doing it less frequently will cut down on ash spillage as well.

 

[begreen]

I used 1/4 SuperCedar this morning. No kindling, just stuck the SC in a hole near the bottom of the pile and lit it. The fire was rocking in 10 minutes and I turned the air down.

 

[webfish]

I used 1/4 SuperCedar this morning. No kindling, just stuck the SC in a hole near the bottom of the pile and lit it. The fire was rocking in 10 minutes and I turned the air down.

This is what I do 90% of the time. Sometimes even an 1/8 of a SC.

 

[begreen]

SuperCedar + dry wood = easy starts

 

[jdlev]

On a cold start, do you use the top down method? There are a variety of methods to warm up the flue (torches, candles, space heaters, hair dryers, paper) but an additional load just to keep the insert warmer for longer will keep you from having cold starts, especially if you're already burning 70% of the time. Where is your insert installed, a basement? Is the liner insulated? If you have ceiling penetrations into the attic space, that can significantly add to the stack effect.

As for ash clean out, leave the ash in there longer. You can leave it so that there's a bed of ash 2" thick. I have the same insert as you and can go a week of 24/7 burning before I think about scooping out ash. Doesn't necessarily answer the question of how to a better job, but doing it less frequently will cut down on ash spillage as well.

Our insert is installed in our great room, and the house is a pretty open floor plan. The great room is two stories, we have a walkway between the bedrooms on the 2nd story, and then the foyer is also 2 stories. We have to keep the thing stocked and rolling pretty much full bore to make a noticeable difference in the whole house (which is roughly 3200 sqft or 4k if the door to the 3rd story is open). It's kind of strange how some fires seem a lot hotter than others though the amount/type of wood used is pretty much equal. We've been rotating pine and sycamore. Because of the pine we run through 2 creosote logs each year, and I plan to have it professionally cleaned before the next cold season. As it stands right now in NC, we probably have a 4-8 weeks of cold weather left.

The liner is insulated, and connected to a cap I installed myself sealed w/ the high temp fireplace silicone. I'm frankly kind of surprised that there isn't a way to force positive pressure into the insert using a fan/damper valve? Seems like that could alleviate a lot of the issues with cold starting pretty easily. Maybe I'll invest in a fresh air line run from outside or under the house to feed the insert. There's got to be some sort of inline fan you can add to something like that for the cold starts?

Seems I need to start keeping some notes handy as I managed to smoke out the house today. Tried to light the fire with a torch and closed the door too soon, so we got cold smoke rolling around in the chamber. Of course, I left our laundry room fan on, so the negative pressure was sucking the cold smoke back into the house. Once I realized the problem, I cracked a door and shut off the fan and the fire fired right up.

It's probably time to invest in some quality air filters. We've got 2 air filters on the sides of the fireplace running almost nonstop, but the air system has the 'permanent' washable steel mesh air filters. That was a waste of money. Guess we should join some home air filter subscription service so we aren't constantly crap from the fireplace in the winter and the pollen (which turns everything bright yellow here in the spring & fall).

 

[jdlev]

SuperCedar + dry wood = easy starts

Guess I'll be buying some SC shortly

 

[kevreh]

Hi Guys,

...

Wood Burning Fireplace Insert Easy Start, Log Lighter Methods
What I really need is something that I can use on a repetitive basis with the door shut so no smoke gets back into the room. What products are available on the market to help easily start the fire in the fire box? I've considered modifying an electric bbq starter and somehow plugging that into the unit but have no idea how well that would work, plus you're probably talking 15 minutes to get the thing to ignite.

Smoke Control

We've been using a propane torch for about the first 3 minutes or so, but we have to leave the front door to the unit cracked so smoke get's back into the room - especially if the flue is cold and/or it's windy outside! I've tried mitigating the issues of negative house pressurization or the cold flue by starting the fires as fast as possible, cracking a window, heating the flue with a small space heater and met with varying results.

I used to have more issues with smoke filling the room before the draw starts. I'm not sure why I don't have them as much, due to one or more of the following; a) if its around 40 or warmer they tend to happen more, b) I make a top-down fire, with smaller scrap wood and a super cedar chunk on the top, reaching within ~3" of the top baffles, c) I always heat things up a bit with a hand held propane torch (used for plumbing), pointed towards the top outlet, and I always test the draw by lighting 1-2 pieces of paper and watching the smoke. IF it doesn't go up the flue pipe, then I'll light a super cedar chunk and set it on the top baffle, by the flue pipe outlet. I tried the window open approach, doesn't seem to help. Also, in addition to your kitchen fan, make sure you don't have bath fans or your furnace running (assuming it uses house air for combustion). Lastly, one other thing that seems to help, or could be just a correlation, is that I close the damper all the way. I figure it causes internal air moving around and may get in the way of getting a draw going (from your room to the flue).

Leaving the door closed doesn't really help in my opinion. I think it just slows things down. Instead try using something that burns clean, like a candle or super cedars to a degree. Those Fatwoods Home Depot sells put out very black smoke. Not good if I'm not sure if I have a good draw.

Ash Control / Cleaning
We burn a lot of wood, and have a fire going probably 60-70% of the time throughout the winter. I'd say after 3-4 fires, we have to clean out the insert of all the ash. I've tried the ash vacuums, and unless you wait at least a day (and usually 2), there are always hot coals left over. You shovel the ash out into a bucket, the ash floats all over the room. You use a vacuum and don't wait until the coals are smolder...the vacuum eventually melts or the filter gets holes - so now you have a giant plum of ash blasted into the room every time you start the thing. Just stirring up the ash with the shovel throws a bunch of stuff in the air you don't want to breathe.

The only thing I've thought of is putting a vacuum outside and running a 20' hose through a window to clean out the insert...still, that doesn't solve the hot coals issues.


Thanks for any advice/tips in advance!

If you're shoveling into the bucket and ash is in the room air, then you're being too rough. I gently lift the scoop of ash out of my woodburner, sort of slowly set it in the bucket, and carefully slide the scoop out letting the ash slide into place. I get maybe a small bit of ash in the air just above the bucket. Pretend like your moving the scoop and ash with an egg sitting on it, lol. Also, got a nice ash vacuum at Amazon for something like $55. I use it every few weeks to do a better clean up after I scoop out most ash. If you fine tune your scooping method, then you can just use the vacuum for the smaller amount of loose ash.

Hope this helps....

 

[Zack R]

Here's what helps for me:

1. Keep a stack of split dry kindling nearby the fire so its always nice and dry. A small rack or bucket a few feet away will work just fine.
2. Get a much flame as you can when starting the fire to heat up the chimney and get the draft going. The top down method works well, as does a small chunk of cardboard.
3. If you are getting smoke back into the room during startup there's a weakness in the draft. I leave my stove door open a crack and can hear it sucking air in almost immediately after igniting the kindling and paper or cardboard with a torch. Double check that your chimney cap isn't clogged up, mine was at one point and it made starting a fire a huge hassle (poor draft, lots of smoke spillage, not much heat, etc...).
4. For ash cleanup I prefer the coals to be warm but not super hot. I tilt the ash bucket toward the stove and gently scoop out the warm ashes. The draft sucks up almost all of the ash dust. I haven't found a need for a vacuum.

As others have repeatedly said be sure to focus on using dry wood and a clean chimney with a good draft. These are what separate an enjoyable wood burning experience from the rest. Even a few days of burning green wood can clog up a chimney cap and ruin the experience.

 

[begreen]

I used to have more issues with smoke filling the room before the draw starts. I'm not sure why I don't have them as much, due to one or more of the following; a) if its around 40 or warmer they tend to happen more, b) I make a top-down fire, with smaller scrap wood and a super cedar chunk on the top, reaching within ~3" of the top baffles, c) I always heat things up a bit with a hand held propane torch (used for plumbing), pointed towards the top outlet, and I always test the draw by lighting 1-2 pieces of paper and watching the smoke. .

How tall is the liner on the insert? Is it 6"? Is it insulated?

 

[Toomb]

Also, is this a newer super insulated house? You may need to open that window a bit more.......

 

[EBFIRE]

1. To reverse draft I open a window first closest to insert and reverse draft so it goes up chimney versus going down with super cold air. I feel that having my liner insulated definitely helps keep exhaust gases hotter till exit but it alsoo funnels cold air down it like a freight train with the right conditions. Depending on variables this may take a few minutes to reverse the draft to the correct direction. I use lighter to check draft until lighter flame goes straight up liner. I have had reverse draft so bad that it's blown out a propane torch with super cold air. I have used a heat gun in past but it can blow ash around. Once draft is reversed I place super cedar in insert on bottom then stack 6-8 very small kindling splits in a north south then east west then back to north south pattern over super cedar. I take a couple pieces of rolled up newspaper and light them and stuff them into liner opening in insert just to make sure draft is still not reversed. Once newspaper gets going I light super cedar and close door 3/4 of the way. My by pass is already out/open and my air control is wide open. Once fire gets established I close door, close my by pass and adjust air as necessary. My fan usually kicks on in about ten to 15 minutes. I have smoked out my entire downstairs of my 1600 sgft cape with reverse cold drafts after insert has sat a day. This method has worked the best for me.

2. When I shovel out ash I do the same method of above to make sure draft is not reversed and that air is exiting up my chimney. This is key so that the very light ash you disturb goes up the chimney draft. I stick the bucket edge as far in the insert i can and slowly shovel ash in to it. Then ash bucket goes immediately out side once the insert is cleaned out. I only vacuum two or three times a year with this method.

3. Burn dry wood. Burn dry wood. Burn dry wood.

4. I had an existing masonry fireplace with a heatilator that I installed a Fireplace Xtraordiair wood burning insert in myself after learning how to from this forum. I insulated my liner, built a block off plate out of sheet metal and lined it with roxul. I can keep my cape home around 74-76 degrees all winter with 8 hour burns. Great info from this site and the experts on here.

5. Dry Wood . Dry Wood . Did I mention dry wood???????