Insert with air and damper control

[hamsey]

Is there an insert made that has both air and damper control? How about one that deals with a strong draft? As some of you know I have been banging my head against a wall trying to figure out how to get better burn times due to excessive draft. After yesterday I am at my wits end. I did what the manufacturer suggested with no change. Maybe this insert is too sensitive to draft. I need to find a insert that can deal with a strong draft.

Any help would be appreciated.

 

[pen]

Since the previous thread wasn't referenced, what is it you have done so far?

Edit: here's the previous thread https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/overdraft.139167/page-2

 

[hamsey]

6" to 5" Reducer at the cap per the manufacturer. Still at -.15 water column on the draft meter. Insert should be at -.05 thru -.08 water column per manufacturer. Only other suggestion was a inline damper but being an insert that is really not an option.

 

[begreen]

This is a dilemma. I would consider further reduction at the cap to 4". The only other option is to restrict more air coming in. How tall is the chimney liner?
http://www.gulland.ca/florida_bungalow_syndrome.htm
If investigating the air intake, can you expose and see the air intake control mechanism? That is, follow back the air control lever to the valve that controls the amount of air? A mirror is sometimes handy for this. If possible take a picture of it.

PS: Was the kiln dried wood more successful?

 

[hamsey]

No kiln dried was not which is why I am still at it. Liner is 22-23' in an interior chimney (part of the problem). I was told (take with a grain of salt) that I should be burning MC wood between 20 - 25% that the less than 20% MC wood was from the pre EPA stoves (again take with a grain of salt).

I will get some pictures tonight. That might help because the way it was explained to me is that the stove "Is pulling more air into the stove and sending the heat up the chimney and that the heat cannot keep up". Take a look at attached photos. To me it looks like it is not getting enough air in the back but because my glass is relatively clean it is not a lack of air issue. And if you go by the numbers there is excessive draft. There was mention of reducing farther but did not seem to be a fan of going that route. Basically it is what it is. That is not acceptable to me. I have no problem removing this insert and putting in a different one. Just not satisfied and it will bother me until I am. (My OCD). Plus ther is no way the wife will put in that much effort. When I got in from removing the snow there was a good 5 to 7" coal/charcoal bed

.

 

[pen]

The only other option is to restrict more air coming in. How tall is the chimney liner?

If investigating the air intake, can you expose and see the air intake control mechanism? That is, follow back the air control lever to the valve that controls the amount of air? A mirror is sometimes handy for this. If possible take a picture of it.

I'm with BG, if reducing the exhaust didn't slow things down enough, I'd be looking at the air intake to see how air could be restricted on the incoming end before considering a completely different unit.

 

[begreen]

EPA stoves want dry wood. How are you testing the moisture content of the wood? On the end grain or on the face of a freshly split piece of wood?

 

[hamsey]

I have no idea how to restrict air at the intake but will get some photos and investigate.

I did not buy into the above 20% MC statement. How I measure is bring a split to room temp for 24 hrs, split in two and measure the fresh cut. I get between 18 and 22%MC not the best but I do not think it would cause the issue I am having. I could be wrong though.

 

[begreen]

You're measuring correctly. You wood is not terrible, but the 22% might explain the wood not burning as well in the back. FWIW, most stoves burn front to back. Loading N/S can even out the burn sometimes. Opening up the air a bit late in the burn cycle can help.

 

[hamsey]

As an experiment yesterday I did the opposite I raked most of the coals to the back and put a small split on it (all I could fit) then loaded it up in middle and front. At the end of the burn I had a massive pile of charcoal in the back. I thought that putting the hot coals in the back would have helped but the end result was the same. This piece was 2 or 3". Also did another experiment with some of the last pieces of 3 yr old oak. Same end result. This wood measured 16% but I only have a couple of them left. Air is open all the way in those coal/charcoal photos above and the air was left half open in the photo with the charcoal splits in the back. Tried a bunch of different things but in the end same results.

Think I found the primary air control part # 19 & 20. They can be seen in the blower install instructions.

 

[pen]

Not that this is much help right now, but I'm going through a similar thing this winter with a stove I've been using for 6+ years. What happened to me, is that the wood I'm burning this year, just so happened to all be a collection of logs that split so easily, that I wound up splitting them down smaller than normal.

Usually, I'm stuck with a much larger quantity of "ugly" wood, with nearly impenetrable knots, etc, that keeps a good percentage of my splits much larger than what I have to work with this year.

The only thing different this year compared to others is the size of my splits, and I too am getting more coaling than I'm used to. In the future, I will keep a larger percentage of the wood, even if it is splitting well, in bigger chunks.

With the bigger chunks, I can keep the air open a tad bit more and not have the stove overheat in the early stage of the game as I'm experiencing now. With the primary air open more, the stove's natural movement of air means less secondary air if the primary is allowed to breathe a bit. That said, I have helped resolve my problem by using the flue damper quite a bit.

With that, I have a free stander, and have good access to the pipe and damper which is why I use it. If I were in your boots, I'd be looking to restrict secondary air so that hopefully you can do the same,,, leave the primary air open a bit more and let that help you burn the coals down, since you don't have the flue damper option.

Supper is ready and am short on time to check out the docs you posted now, but plan to look at what you shared after, and hope some others do too.

We're with ya, you have a good stove, it just needs tuning.

pen

 

[hamsey]

Pen,

Hope you enjoyed dinner! Thanks for the info. Small splits are what happens when you buy your wood. In the process of correcting that but it will be after 15/16. I am not shutting down my air 100%. At most 75% Trying to give it more so I do not get the charcoal. Tried 50% with the same results. Almost at the point of leaving it fully open to see if I get better results. I do not give up easy, very persistent but getting close to throwing in the towel. Even with air open all the way and burning down the coals the back of the stove just goes to charcoal. No fire last PM so I started taking the stove apart. Just for the fun of it I checked the door gasket again while there was some resistance I adjusted the latch so I really need to pull on the dollar bill to get it out. Not quite tear pull but you have to try and remove it.

Currently drying a few splits in the oven. 185* for 3 or 4 hours and am going to cook a couple of batches and burn just this wood and see what happens. Once and for all I need to rule out the wood. Even buying kiln dried wood I do not think it needs to be where it needs to be. I keep checking it and am getting no moisture coming at me when I open the door.

From what I have been told there is no way to mod the secondary air on this insert. Still trying to wrap my head around mod the primary air how that will help due to me not shutting it down all the way. What will modding the secondary air do? Sorry for all the questions but am trying to learn this stuff.

This insert burns totally different than the Jotul. I was not getting much heat from that one and ok burn times but at least it did not charcoal and the coals glowed front to back. At least now I know why no heat.

 

[pen]

From what I have been told there is no way to mod the secondary air on this insert. Still trying to wrap my head around mod the primary air how that will help due to me not shutting it down all the way. What will modding the secondary air do? Sorry for all the questions but am trying to learn this stuff.

Modding the primary air isn't what I was thinking, it sounds to me like you need less secondary air. No single opening for the secondary air that can be restricted? That's what I was hoping to find in the diagrams or when you were looking at the stove, but I haven't had a chance to view them yet.

 

[pen]

Just looked at the diagrams, and I can't tell where the secondary manifold gets the air from. On my stove, the secondary air comes from a square opening on the bottom back of the stove that is about 2/3 the size of my thumb. In my case, I could use some aluminum tape or a magnet, etc and block a portion of that spot and test the stove out.

I'm hoping you'll be able to find a similar way to do it on your unit.

 

[hamsey]

Update: Definitely not the wood. Burned my oven baked wood (195* 3-4 hours) and the end result is the same. Charcoal. Thought tightening up the door would help. So at this point I am going to have the dealer and Hearthstone figure it out. Really do not want to modify the stove in case I have to sell it. Dealer talked about going with a 5" or 5 1/2" Liner but needs to see if this acceptable with Hearthstone.

Can a freestanding stove be installed with a damper control in my situation and still pass the WAF? Fireplace opening height: 27" width: 37" depth 22" What would I need to do?

 

[Grisu]

Your height is a problem. 27" leaves you with the Woodstock Progress Hybrid and I think the Ideal Steel as the only options in the size you will need, as far as I remember minimum lintel heights. The hearth will need to be extended.

 

[hamsey]

Extending the hearth not a problem. Was going to do that already so we can ditch that temporary pad. Would rear venting slow down draft?

 

[hamsey]

Are cat stoves effected by strong draft? Bungalow article mentions non-cat stoves and other findings on the web mention non-cat stove but nowhere does it mention cat stoves.

 

[begreen]

With a freestanding stove there is the possibility of putting in a flue damper in the snout connecting the stove to the cleanout tee.

 

[mellow]

Any stove is affected by stronger than usual draft, cat or non-cat, the flue damper will help with that. Rear vent does need a bit more draft, especially with venting to a Tee, that might help you and not need a damper.

 

[hamsey]

Any stove is affected by stronger than usual draft, cat or non-cat, the flue damper will help with that. Rear vent does need a bit more draft, especially with venting to a Tee, that might help you and not need a damper.

That is what I am thinking and hoping for. Not sure if the wife will go for a freestanding stove. For the time being I am going to still oven bake my wood and wait until I hear back from the dealer. With my current situation the charcoal does not really ignite the wood when I reload. Having the oven bake wood it ignites much faster and a lot less smoke.