Intensifier tech coming for old stoves

[Kiwi Firemaster]

Another response of a similar nature provse my point about endless messages and going around in circles. If you were truly a professional then you would have approached this in a professional manner, ie: via private correspondence and subject to a suitable non disclosure agreement.

The instrumentation used by Brookhaven National Laboratory on the IntensiFire was reading zero carbon monoxide. In the words of Trevor Gionet at the time "that is perfect combustion". Possibly the first time that has ever been achieved, with any fuel and any combustion system. That was after only 3 years in the business, so all that experience and those qualifications you outline haven't really helped a lot have they? The system jumped coal, oil and natural gas for emissions in one definitive moment, or as one mentor stated "that is a step change in the renewables sector". The system is far more important than just woodstoves, so I am not going to be provoked by someone on the internet that thinks they know something about combustion.

Sorry bholler, I do wish you well but I can't take you seriously.

 

[bholler]

Sorry bholler, I do wish you well but I can't take you seriously.

And that attitude directed at a well respected professional in the field will earn you the reputation as being arrogant here in the states. I responded to your comments about me if you want to have a private conversation about it you should not have referenced me in the public forum. If you want to sell your product here you will need to learn to deal with American chimney professionals so far it does not seem like you have any clue how to do that.

so all that experience and those qualifications you outline haven't really helped a lot have they?

What does that mean? I am very respected in the field. I am partner in a successful business and i am happy with it where it is i have no desire to grow it much bigger. And by the way i hold 2 medical equipment patents for products i developed while i was in college as well. So yes my experience and qualifications have helped me just fine. I worked in the corporate design field for a while and decided it was not for me i prefer to work with my hands.

I would be happy to sign a nondisclosure agreement and hear more about your technology.

 

[bholler]

And by the way if you actually have achieved perfect combustion which is regarded as impossible in the scientific community Why have you not publicized it? Something like that would be worthy of a Nobel prize. Seriously to prove something like that is possible would be a massive achievement. And yes I know what perfect combustion is and it would take allot more than a reading of zero co to prove you achieved it.

 

[begreen]

Nothing is perfect, perfection is an absolute. The Intensifier does work and very well at that. I saw a prototype installed in DC in an old Tremont. The stove was burning very cleanly, next to some of the industry's best including the Twin-Fire next to it. There's been a lot of lab testing on this device and the results are very good. I'm hoping it shows up here sometime soon and starts cleaning up some smoke dragons. The main issue is one needs a big stove because the unit eats up firebox space. Should work well on those big Bears, Schraders and Timberlines.

 

[bholler]

Nothing is perfect, perfection is an absolute. The Intensifier does work and very well at that. I saw a prototype installed in DC in an old Tremont. The stove was burning very cleanly, next to some of the industry's best including the Twin-Fire next to it. There's been a lot of lab testing on this device and the results are very good. I'm hoping it shows up here sometime soon and starts cleaning up some smoke dragons. The main issue is one needs a big stove because the unit eats up firebox space. Should work well on those big Bears, Schraders and Timberlines.

I did not see it. But again with all the info available about its performance i don't doubt it can work. The only problem i have with it is the fact that any time i have asked how it works i am told i would not understand it. And there is no reason i need to know how it works. Then i am called out in one response then chastised for responded. Then he acts superior to me because i chose to be a sweep. I am sorry but Insulting and belittling the pros in the field you are trying to introduce a product in does not seem like a great strategy.

And i was not trying to say i was better than you because you only have 5 years in the field. But you say you have 5 years in New Zealand and you know your customers. I am saying i have allot more years hear where you are trying to bring your product. And i know my customers. If i cant explain to them how it works in a simple and easy to understand way i generally wont make the sale. It can be as simple as like with tube stoves it introduces heated fresh air into the top of the firebox which burns up allot of what is left in the smoke. Simple and straight forward. And lets them know basically how it works. Americans are skeptical and just telling them trust me it works will not get the best reaction from my experience

 

[maple1]

Another response of a similar nature provse my point about endless messages and going around in circles. If you were truly a professional then you would have approached this in a professional manner, ie: via private correspondence and subject to a suitable non disclosure agreement.

The instrumentation used by Brookhaven National Laboratory on the IntensiFire was reading zero carbon monoxide. In the words of Trevor Gionet at the time "that is perfect combustion". Possibly the first time that has ever been achieved, with any fuel and any combustion system. That was after only 3 years in the business, so all that experience and those qualifications you outline haven't really helped a lot have they? The system jumped coal, oil and natural gas for emissions in one definitive moment, or as one mentor stated "that is a step change in the renewables sector". The system is far more important than just woodstoves, so I am not going to be provoked by someone on the internet that thinks they know something about combustion.

Sorry bholler, I do wish you well but I can't take you seriously.

I think I would have to suggest that you develop a different approach to responding those who you might perceive to be exhibiting some skepticism to your claims - and not be so easily provoked by harmless questioning by prospective customers, clients, re-sellers, and what-have-yous. It is only natural to meet unexplained breakthroughs with questions. Or at least it should be. And it definitely is if a product is brought to an internet forum such as this - where learning through discussion is the front & centre aspect.

I also truly wish you well with this - if it can live up to what has been hyped so far, it obviously has great potential. But as far as provocative questioning goes, I suspect, as they say and some have sung about - you ain't seen nothing yet.

 

[bholler]

I did not see it. But again with all the info available about its performance i don't doubt it can work. The only problem i have with it is the fact that any time i have asked how it works i am told i would not understand it. And there is no reason i need to know how it works. Then i am called out in one response then chastised for responded. Then he acts superior to me because i chose to be a sweep. I am sorry but Insulting and belittling the pros in the field you are trying to introduce a product in does not seem like a great strategy.

And i was not trying to say i was better than you because you only have 5 years in the field. But you say you have 5 years in New Zealand and you know your customers. I am saying i have allot more years hear where you are trying to bring your product. And i know my customers. If i cant explain to them how it works in a simple and easy to understand way i generally wont make the sale. It can be as simple as like with tube stoves it introduces heated fresh air into the top of the firebox which burns up allot of what is left in the smoke. Simple and straight forward. And lets them know basically how it works. Americans are skeptical and just telling them trust me it works will not get the best reaction from my experience

I Will let you know that your partner obediah had me happily waiting until you could release more info. He treated me with respect and did not dismiss my question as pointless. I think you should take a page out of his book when it comes to dealing with professionals. We are going to ask questions and we are going to expect answers. I can respect the answer of we cannot release that info at this time. I cannot respect the answer of it works you dont need to know how.

 

[jkoplo]

I Will let you know that your partner obediah had me happily waiting until you could release more info. He treated me with respect and did not dismiss my question as pointless. I think you should take a page out of his book when it comes to dealing with professionals. We are going to ask questions and we are going to expect answers. I can respect the answer of we cannot release that info at this time. I cannot respect the answer of it works you dont need to know how.

The details are in his patent if you want to read through legalese: http://www.google.com/patents/US20140196637?cl=en

 

[bholler]

The details are in his patent if you want to read through legalese: http://www.google.com/patents/US20140196637?cl=en

Thank you very much i was given it already by another member but i appreciate it.

 

[mellow]

I was there at the decathlon when they were metering the stove and everyone came running over, they could not believe the results, they thought the meter was broken or batteries were dead, once they realized it was for real they were very impressed.

All of this from a stove that was about to be scrapped and it even had the wrong liner size since they didn't have 8" at the comp, I still can't get over that.

@bholler Jason is passionate about his invention, sometimes a bit too passionate and takes things personally, but he at the same time isn't trying to have someone rip off his hard work, I can understand that.

From the patent you can see it is a downdraft style device, yes it takes up room in the firebox, but with an old epa monster like that Treemont there was plenty of room all around the device to put smaller chunks of wood in all around it.

I would love to see this device sold at farm and home or big box stores so that older non-epa stoves could even burn clean, an easy install would facilitate the sales growth of the device.

 

[mellow]

And to think this is the before shot of the Treemont that Jason had to work with, about to go to the scrap yard:

 

[bholler]

Jason is passionate about his invention, sometimes a bit too passionate and takes things personally, but he at the same time isn't trying to have someone rip off his hard work, I can understand that.

I understand that but he also needs to respect the professionals who are working in the field. If he had just said i cant tell you at this time the way Obediah has i would not have taken offense but to basically tell me there is no way i could understand it is pretty insulting. I don't doubt the product works but he needs to learn how to deal with inquisitive people of just let Obediah deal with the public. Also to claim to have achieved perfect combustion is a little ridiculous. If he had he would have won the decathlon without question. And he did not win a single category. What he did do is very impressive without a doubt especially considering the companies he was up against. I would never have questioned the results till he claimed perfect combustion which is impossible.

 

[mellow]

Also to claim to have achieved perfect combustion is a little ridiculous.

He didn't claim it, he clearly quotes Trevor as saying that.

 

[mellow]

He has the documentation to backup what he did say: http://www.intensifire.co.nz/images/Jason/BNL-Letter-for-website-c.jpg

 

[bholler]

He didn't claim it, he clearly quotes Trevor as saying that.

fair enough but he did go on to say himself "Possibly the first time that has ever been achieved, with any fuel and any combustion system."
Which i took as him claiming it to be true

 

[bholler]

He has the documentation to backup what he did say: http://www.intensifire.co.nz/images/Jason/BNL-Letter-for-website-c.jpg

Yes i have read that already and what he says in that letter is very far from perfect combustion. Again i am not bashing the product at all i was just curious and my questions where met be some very arrogant and condescending responses which offended me and will do the same to any other professional he treats that way. I have never said anything negative about the product other than it did not achieve prefect combustion.

 

[mellow]

I just did find this page, if you want pics this has it: http://www.heatkit.com/research/2013/lopez decathlon13.htm

 

[bholler]

I just did find this page, if you want pics this has it

Thanks i hadnt seen that one yet but i did pay close attention to the competition some very cool stuff.

 

[Kiwi Firemaster]

Mellow I didn't realise you witnessed that first test, I was so immersed in the moment myself. After discussing that test with a couple of the stove builder judges it was apparent it needed some tuning, so I spent the rest of the contest time doing that. Unfortunately the second formal test, with the second type of gas analyser, didn't go so well as I still didn't have it quite right.

What most people don't pick up is the disparity between the letter of endorsement from the US Government Laboratory, and the decathlon results.

Reason is Brookhaven did a third test that could not be included in the official result (for reasons of fairness). That test burned cleaner than another other competitor by a factor of multiples. In fact it burned cleaner than any other combustion technology on the planet. Cleaner than natural gas.

 

[bholler]

Reason is I did a third test that could not be included in the official result (for reasons of fairness). That test burned cleaner than another other competitor by a factor of multiples. In fact it burned cleaner than any other combustion technology on the planet. Cleaner than natural gas.

Very cool i hope you get it to market and those results can be replicated in the real world. If they can it would be a great innovation.

 

[mellow]

Figuring out how to make this plug n play is one of Jason's greatest hurdles, so many different styles of non-epa stoves, they are all big boxes but how they regulate the primary air is often very different.

 

[Obadiah]

Hey guys, wishing ya all a very happy an prosperous New Year!

Here is where I'm at with this project, Jason stayed at my place and used my lab and the local college to develop several combustion intensification systems.
1. Jason modified a Woodmaster LT90 outdoor wood boiler with an elaborate combustion intensification system that we still have some tweaking to do.
Jason had to cut his trip short to perfect it, so I'll pick it up in Feb when it slows down a bit.
2. Jason modified a Kitchen Queen wood cookstove with a combustion intensification process that still needs some tweaking. Not sure when I'll get that dialed in either, but Jason says were close.
3. Jason modified a wood burning zero clearance fireplace that got so hot you could see the top of the fireplace turn cherry red and the glass door shattered. This caused me grave concerns about how to sell these as retrofits as the UL on the stoves would be no longer valid for clearances to combustibles and thus a liability problem for me to offer my customers retrofit kits. My legal team and financial adviser see it as a land mine, so we'll steer clear of that market in North America where Obadiah's is concerned.
4. Jason converted a EPA wood burning fireplace called the BIS Panorama over with an Intensifire system that works pretty darn well. Well enough to feel my investment so far is worth it. I am looking for a Niche market to fill with a product that works well and burns exceptionally. I think I found it and have something that I can develop once I experiment some more with tuning the system.

What I have learned.....
The best way to describe how it works is in the name itself. This SOB burns hotter than than a cup of McDonald's coffee down yer crotch......
The wetter the wood the hotter it burns.
The Intensifire works well as described.
Once dialed in properly Jason could get it burning smoke free in less than 10 minutes.
We could get an 8 hr burn in the Panorama, but I believe we can get 10 or 12.
The combustion tube does get in the way and is a problem, but can be built into the original design from the start not to interfere or obstruct how wood is loaded.

Sorry Chimney Pro's, no retro's in the plan, just brand new well engineered stoves and boilers that contain the combustion intensification system that Jason calls the Intensifire. If Jason wants to offer them here in NA, as a kit that can be installed in older stoves, that is his business, I am not supporting the millions of questions that will arise. I'm 56, tired and ready to move out of sales into R&D under a contract basis. My plans are only to work with manufactures like Woodmaster Boilers to help them burn cleaner, under a agreement we will work out. I will also be looking at developing our own line of stoves further, using Jason's ideas.

The drawbacks are it burns hot and fast and I am trying to figure out how to make it burn longer and tone it down a bit. It needs some tweaking for the North American market to be successful. We like long slow clean burning stoves that can burn at least 10-12 hrs. that are easily regulated and controlled. That is not how this currently burns, we all know the hotter something burns the cleaner it burns, so that is the secrete to how it works. I see this combustion system as a potentially simple clean burning solution for many applications. The key is in the design and engineering of the end product that is to house the Intensifire technology, will be channeling air to a nozzle that will funnel hot gases into a combustion chamber that burns extremely hot and clean. Sorry I cant get into much more detail than that.

I took some pics and shot some videos I will upload when I get through the busy season, stay tuned.

As far as Jason personally, he is pretty easy going and humble. I am sorry if he comes across here as anything other than that. I never had an issue with him other than he does not understand the Liability factor here as you cant really sue in NZ. He does not also understand the way most Americans expect it to work right the first time, every-time.....if it doesn't the whole world will know about it. My tech support staff would have to be increased 10 fold, the margins won't work to make it profitable. I'm a businessman and I do this for profit, not to save the planet, or get sued.

My regrets, bad timing, trying to pull something off like this during my busy season, during a very stressful personal issue, was not the wisest idea on my part. I was not able to as involved as I would have liked to and saw this project through better than I was able to.

 

[bholler]

Thanks for the update sounds like allot of work still to be done but it also sounds promising. I Agree that the liability of modifying ul listed appliances is probably not worth the risk. And changing a bilders box fireplace is just scary.

And by the way jason and i talked in private messages and we cleared everything up. And yes he really seems like a very genuine and nice guy. We just got off on the wrong foot

 

[Obadiah]

Thanks for the update sounds like allot of work still to be done but it also sounds promising. I Agree that the liability of modifying ul listed appliances is probably not worth the risk. And changing a bilders box fireplace is just scary.

And by the way jason and i talked in private messages and we cleared everything up. And yes he really seems like a very genuine and nice guy. We just got off on the wrong foot

Cool Beans! We all need to pull together and I appreciate what you guys have done to help Jason on the first go around. You guys stepped up to the plate then, I know you guys at Hearth.com will do it again.

Those who want to be a part of this development on a more personal basis will need to sign a NDA. A simple step in working together on any project that will require the kind of $$$ investment this will to see through fruition. All of our partners in this project have gladly complied. Jason deserves to have his invention protected and I would ask that folks respect that. Jason is the kind of guy who does not require much and is not greedy, he's passion is more towards solving issues like wood combustion, than making money. However as his friend, he is not getting any younger and needs to have some sort of retirement income coming in. My goal is to help make that a reality.

We welcome working together with those who are establish Hearth Pros who are interested in the technolgy. If someone wants to step up to the plate, accept all the liability associated with selling and installing the Intensifire and provide the necessary tech support to the customers. I would entertain franchising the technology in a way that factory trained chimney pros who carried a proper certs and experience as well a a few million in liability insurance. Jason and I have already discussed this in depth concerning dealer support for companies like Woodmaster and how we'd train those dealers to go back into the field and install Intensifire Combustion kits into certain older Woodmaster OWBs.
This gives the dealer another income stream updating existing Outdoor Wood Boilers (OWB) This avoids a bunch of liability issues and provides some insulation for me. The same idea could be expanded for certain Hearth Pros who want to experiment with the Intensifire and develop conversion kits for particular stoves. That person could present that design for us to manufacture and market, they would receive a piece of the pie for every kit sold. If enough kits are sold for a particular stove, we could then look at UL testing in a lab a friend owns. Having a UL for the kit would then allow it to be sold to other sweeps only. I would only allow the Intensifire to be sold through certain companies like Olympia and Copperfield to chimney pros only. The purchase would have on the Invoice TO BE PROFFESIONALY INSTALLED ONLY TO LOCAL CODES.
I am looking at working together with this friend who owns one of the largest chimney supply companies as partner, if this proves feasible. This would provide the manufacturing, R&D support and distribution network throughout North America.
Right now I am looking for someone to help research and write grants to bear the some of the projected lab costs. I have invested in a Testo 323 and we have plans to build a particulate counter at the local college. Once I have the ability to test what is actually coming out of the stack, our team here can finish what was started.
Here are a few pics of the LT90 for you to get an idea of what the kit would look like.

 

[begreen]

Thanks Jason for your efforts to clean up stoves. It would be interesting to see this technology replace the guts of the notorious VC downdraft stoves. If it is simpler and more reliable it could bring back these classic American beauties with new life.