Is my fireplace safe to use? Metal liner questions.

[Minivipr]

I purchased this house a few months ago and the fireplace was never really used by the previous owners. They said they used it while tearing out all the old lathe and plaster and building the addition and a couple more times after completed. They said they didn't enjoy it cause too much smoke came into the house.
Well I want to use it so I started looking in the repair and function of the fireplace. The main problem that I found was that the damper was not even opening while they were using it. It was old, rusted, and warped to the point that it would not open properly. I have since replaced that with a Chimney Lock Top II. So cleaning up inside the fireplace I have re sealed all the fire bricks on the floor and cleaned and painted the metal liner inside the firebox.
That is where I found what I am unsure about. The metal liner that is above the damper is rusted out and gone on the back wall. There is some insulation there and then the brick. the side pieces all look to be in good shape and connected to the back wall. I am sure that the years of no chimney cap has caused my problem of the piece rusting out.
Is my chimney and fireplace still safe to use? There is no way of getting up into the area to try to replace the metal without tearing out the whole fireplace.
I have included a link to view some photos of the fireplace and a video that shows the damaged area. Its not the best video cause I had to stick my arm up there with my cell phone and get some video of what was going on.

https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B9v7VQn_ukJPU2xicm9iMWNkVUE&usp=sharing

 

[webbie]

Hmm, if I had to hazard a guess I'd say this think it EOL (end of life)......

Now, that may not make you happy, but it could make you and your house safer......

So, the choices are probably....

1. Install gas, wood or pellet insert.....
2. Do a complete rebuild of the firebox - expensive, but will restore it to open fireplace status. This could cost $5K to 12K total, since we also need to do a complete eval of the chimney.
examples:
http://www.bellfiresusa.com/fireplaces/fireplace_model_BSV.htm

 

[Minivipr]

But why?
As far as I can see in there the damage is to that piece alone and it really didn't seem to serve a purpose of more than a channel to the flue. But even without it the natural vent is still there and it goes straight up into the flue. I cannot see any areas where there could possibly be combustable materials. The fireplace and chimney seem to be a complete unit in itself. By the time that you are in the firebox you are already past the interior walls of the house. The flue and everything inside the fireplace is outside the home for the most part. Is there studding or anything that would come down into the structure of the fireplace? I cannot see any.
Today I taped my phone to a piece of wood so I could get it up in there farther. The only thing that I could tell was that without that metal piece installed it looks as though the outside brick is visible through the little bit of insulation that is left. There still wasn't anything that I would think is too dangerous up there and fear igniting. I am going to upload that video to the link above as well if it may help in figuring this out.
I know its not the correct way to look at it but how many fireplaces are being used with the same piece damaged in the throat without them knowing it? If my damper was functional then I would have never thought about looking up inside the throat to see what was going on up there.

 

[xtrordinair]

you may see no non combustibles in the hole,but its letting smoke up in there witch also means soot could make its way through and end up somewhere you cant see and dont want it ,If it ever built up and ignited you know what happens then...pooof .I would put a wood insert with a liner in there .Makes it safe and efficient .

 

[webbie]

Your fireplace cannot be diagnosed from afar...and probably not by you unless you are quite a mechanic and also versed in masonry and other codes.

Those metal boxes were designed for 20-30 years. I've seen many many of them be shot in 25. There are many dangerous places in such a contraption, especially on the front face and the entire area above the damper.

If you think it can be repaired, you should have a couple real certified pros (NFI certified) come out and inspect it carefully.

 

[weatherguy]

If you want to see fire I'd put an insert with a liner, if cost is an issue they're some plain jane lower costs inserts, still probably cheaper than a new fireplace. I would never burn it like that and be able to sleep at night myself.

 

[oconnor]

If you want to see fire I'd put an insert with a liner, if cost is an issue they're some plain jane lower costs inserts, still probably cheaper than a new fireplace. I would never burn it like that and be able to sleep at night myself.

Keep in mind that most (all?) inserts state that they must be installed in a code compliant fireplace. Installs in prefab fireplaces are an extra level of complication, with some inserts only being approved for certain specific prefab models.
Also, chimneys need to be up to a certain standard before they are relined. Check the instructions from the manufacturer.

Burn safe and stay warm.

 

[rwhite]

I can tell you from my experience of installing an insert that I would never want an open fireplace again. Mine was seemingly in good shape but ineffiencent and just suck the warm furnace air out of the house. When I removed the damper and a row of brick the vacuumed out behind that wall (i forget the correct nomenclature but there is an air space built behind the back wall of fireplaces) I took out 2 16 gallon shop vacs of creosote and other various junk. Get an EPA rated insert with glass door and you will get just as much enjoyment and more heat than an open fireplace. I bought a used insert and installed myself and it paid for itself the first year.

 

[Minivipr]

Alright I have been asking questions on an older fireplace in my house that was not taken care of by the previous owners. The rear lining of the throat is gone. And according to my thread about the safety and usability of it https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/is-my-fireplace-safe-to-use-metal-liner-questions.119014/ I was told that it is junk, crap, EOL.
I am not too much worried about this heating my house. I know an insert is the way to go to make sure that this is usable and the most efficient way of heating. But what about just to have a cozy fire once in a while?
Can I contact a mason and have them look into the possibility of me removing the metal liner and they rebuild the inside of the fireplace with fire brick? Has anyone looked into the possibility of having this done? Or is there another way of going about this just to have a nice fire?

 

[webby3650]

It isn't really possible to do this properly. A fireplace is built from the bottom up. In your case the bottom is already done, removing the bottom only and rebuilding is not possible. There would be no way to build a smoke chamber above the firebox.

Have you seen an insert in operation? They burn beautifully! In the end it would end up being a cheaper alternative that could heat your house if needed!

 

[begreen]

Seems like this was already asked and answered in the previous thread. Occasional fires in the fireplace are no safer. The shell has been compromised. An insert that totally contains the fire and sends it up a new liner is the safe way to go.

You can certainly contact a mason or an NFI certified installer for a second and third opinion and an eyes on the scene assessment.

 

[rwhite]

I am almost certain that anything can be done for a price. Some folks are more than happy with open fire places as they only burn occasionally and its only for the ambiance. Just don't get sucked into buying fireplace gadgets that claim to get more heat out of an open fireplace. They are marginal at best and expensive. My biggest problem I had with an open fireplace was the amount of warm air it sucked out of the house whether it was running or not.

 

[Minivipr]

I do recall asking if my fireplace was usable in its current condition in my last post but I do not recall asking if it could be rebuilt with new firebrick. Maybe I should go back and read something I missed.
So I have seen articles claiming that a smoke shelf is not really a necessary component in a fireplace. Are they incorrect?

 

[rwhite]

I think that we are in a spot where were all just guessing. From the pics I can't tell the construction of the fireplace or chimney. I'm thinking your at a spot where a licensed mason and fireplace inspector is needed. I would lay bets that by the condition of that fire box that the chimney is not in real good shape internally as well. Either way it looks expensive. There are a lot of flush mount insert units out there that give all the ambiance of an open fire place (and provide heat). And I venture that their going to be cheaper than what your looking at for repair.

 

[Jags]

Minivipr - A wise man once said (and it is still in his sig line). If you plan on inviting fire into your home, do it with the utmost caution. Error on the side of safety. Short cuts and patches are only that. That firebox really needs to go.

 

[bluedogz]

I am almost certain that anything can be done for a price.

Perhaps so, but maybe not the perspective with which to start a fire in your living room.

My biggest problem I had with an open fireplace was the amount of warm air it sucked out of the house whether it was running or not.

Well, then why rebuild one? That's got me puzzled.

 

[begreen]

Merged threads to jog memories. The answers are being repeated.

 

[Dave A.]

Every time you merge his threads, the old messages get marked as new, and have to be read again.

 

[begreen]

This is the first time it has been merged. Craig covered options pretty well the first time around, but that seems to have been forgotten.

 

[Dave A.]

Might have been another merged thread then where the messages don't retain their status as read. I don't know what the answer is -- require new members attend an orientation program on how to properly post and create new threads with non-hostile subject titles?

 

[rwhite]

Perhaps so, but maybe not the perspective with which to start a fire in your living room..

I wasn't suggesting anything out of code or unsafe. Just saying that for a price it can be rebuilt and for the right price it can be made safe and up to code.

Well, then why rebuild one? That's got me puzzled.

I'm not the one rebuilding it. I was just telling him my issue with an open fireplace. I would spend my money more wisely than rebuilding that thing. But like I said..."if you want it, it can be had for a price"