Liability

[highanddryinco]

I'll tread (or thread if you prefer) lightly here but I want to expand slightly on a subject that was mentioned on an earlier thread that correctly got slammed shut as it headed sharply south.

• I regularly cut all my wood on a good friend's property. It helps him out (fire mitigation and overall forest health) and supplies me all the wood I can handle.
• Nearby neighbor of good friend's property (who I didn't know from Adam) sees me working, approaches me later, says he's got four trees he needs dropped and bucked, and asks if I'd be interested.
  • (Negotiated cost of services in $$ and/or firewood not at all germane to this thread as far as I'm concerned.)

I inform him that despite all the fun tools floating around, I'm not a licensed or insured tree service but rather an ordinary wood burning Joe-Bob (like so many others here) and if he's good with that, I'd take a look at what he's needing.

Right off, I figured I wouldn't do this job for a stranger without some type of simple signed agreement in place. Paraphrased basically, "I'm not responsible for...blah, blah, blah, that I may cause and you're not responsible for blah, blah, blah...that you may cause.

Bottom line:
Anyone ever do anything like this? Anyone have any reliable insight as to if that piece of paper would be worth a hill of beans if God forbid, anything did go wrong?

 

[DougA]

Not to try to be crass but there would be a lot of problems for all involved and the net result would be more rich lawyers.

If you reserved your cutting to open areas where there is no danger to property and you are only risking your own well being, the chances of lawyers getting involved is next to nill. Even then, a signed piece of paper can grow into an entity on it's own, given the legal system. I'm sure I will get slammed by someone but I always prefer to take the devil's advocate role and that has always served me well.

IOW, cut the easy stuff and leave the dangerous stuff to the paid & insured experts.

 

[BrotherBart]

The paper would be fine. But just one hour in a lawyer's office costs more than a hell of a lot of firewood. Win lose or draw.

 

[highanddryinco]

Yeah, good points. I did neglect to mention that this is fairly remote cabin property so there are fairly few obstacles to hurt in event of a misguided tree fall. But maybe I'll just let this one pass. Kind of stinks sometimes, the litigious world we've become.

 

[Jay106n]

If the tree has any risk of losing your house, car, and 401k, then don't touch it.

 

[Seanm]

As soon as you exchange a service for money or reward you become liable. I see it all the time, if it even crosses your mind that you should be insured then you should be. That being said the world has become a crazy place when it comes to liability. I will go up in the sub alpine and cut by myself and out of cell service. Smart? no but the liability is only on myself. Good thread though. I think it deserves a conversation with multiple perspectives to be respected.

 

[Knots]

DougA said it - if it isn't an easy drop where there's no risk of hitting anything, I'm not touching it. If it is out in the open, I'll risk doing it without paper.

 

[claydogg84]

Which end of the spectrum are you concerned about - Youreself getting injured, or causing damage to his property? Liability can go either way.

 

[jb6l6gc]

Just have a liability waiver no big deal. People do it all the time around here for various reasons. Ie. guy riding toys in neighbours farm fields..me and bro in law. Never had a problem signing a liability waiver, protects land owner from being sued and rightfully so. Even if the waiver says their not responsible if you injure yourself and that's all.

 

[highanddryinco]

Which end of the spectrum are you concerned about - Youreself getting injured, or causing damage to his property? Liability can go either way.

Definitely not worried about me getting hurt. I take that risk upon myself all the time. I have good insurance for that side of it. That said, I would expect the owner would want to be released as well. I certainly would never sue anyone for my error in judgment. It's just not the way I'm wired. But he has no way of knowing that about me either.

 

[DougA]

I certainly would never sue anyone for my error in judgment. It's just not the way I'm wired. But he has no way of knowing that about me either.

It's almost always not you the owners are worried, it's your next if kin. Somewhere down the line of in-laws, someone will get the idea that they could find a lawyer that will make them rich.
I have a beautiful property that many people want to use for a wedding ceremony. The answer is always no, sorry not worth the risk of someone falling into the pond. Even when my daughter wanted to use it, I insisted that she get a special insurance policy for the occasion. All it would take is one person to drive home and have an accident after having a few drinks and I will be named on the lawsuit. For a lawyer, it's easy just to list everyone who 'might' have insurance. Even if I had nothing to do with it, my insurance probably would settle out of court (even against my wishes) and then my insurance fees would skyrocket.
After lawyers, then comes insurance companies ... now you've got my blood pressure rising.

 

[highanddryinco]

Ok Doug. Please don't burst or anything like that.
I wouldn't want my post to be the cause of your demise. Worse than that, your daughter may come to track me down. (Pay no attention to my avatar info...I really live in Katmandu.)

Thanks everyone for the replies.

 

[DougA]

Please don't burst or anything like that

OK, I'm headed out to take out my anger on some black walnut. Chainsaws help calm the nerves.

 

[warbonnet]

Just have a liability waiver no big deal. People do it all the time around here for various reasons. Ie. guy riding toys in neighbours farm fields..me and bro in law. Never had a problem signing a liability waiver, protects land owner from being sued and rightfully so. Even if the waiver says their not responsible if you injure yourself and that's all.

I can tell you with certainty a liability waiver is not worth the paper it is written on if someone lawyers up and sues you. The only way to protect yourself is with insurance. A lot of people get lured into a false sense of security with a liability waiver. Only to find out the hard way they can still be held liable and be sued

 

[claydogg84]

I can tell you with certainty a liability waiver is not worth the paper it is written on if someone lawyers up and sues you. The only way to protect yourself is with insurance. A lot of people get lured into a false sense of security with a liability waiver. Only to find out the hard way they can still be held liable and be sued

Please provide some sort of evidence on this. I did a little research and it seems the effectiveness of a liability waiver can vary depending on the state.

 

[Squisher]

To the OP. One thing to consider in this is that if you have some sort of accident insurance policy on yourself as you seem to be saying in one of your posts. It is probably null and void if you are being paid for the tree falling, so you may in fact not have yourself covered for a 'what if or oops' if it's for profit.

I owned a professional tree service for years and WCB rates and liability insurance are through the roof for that type of work. I live in an area with lots of logging and often lost many of the easy trees to firewooders or weekend fallers. I never sweat it none, everyone needs to save a buck when they can. Just be aware of the risks, like you seem to be.

 

[TreePointer]

I can tell you with certainty a liability waiver is not worth the paper it is written on if someone lawyers up and sues you. The only way to protect yourself is with insurance. A lot of people get lured into a false sense of security with a liability waiver. Only to find out the hard way they can still be held liable and be sued

I agree with this. Liability waivers or "hold harmless" agreements can help, but they are by no means foolproof. They always can be challenged or contested, and there are many cases in which they are indeed shown to be worthless. (Yes, I actually talked to my attorney about this.) The laws about such can vary in different municipalities.

And be careful about permitting minors on your property for potentially dangerous activities (chainsaws, ATV's, etc.). If there is an incident, the child's parents/legal guardians may decide not to file a lawsuit against you. You're in the clear, right? Wrong! The child may still file a lawsuit later in life when he/she reaches the state's age of adulthood (18,21, etc.).

 

[usmc1371]

It's kind of a shame you cant just tell the guy "I'm not a professional but I will cut the ones I am confidant I can get safely, shake hand, cut wood."

 

[DougA]

It's kind of a shame you cant just tell the guy

You can. As long as nothing goes wrong.
That's why a few of us say to go ahead and cut as long as there is no danger. If you are a house or building or power line - no.

 

[claydogg84]

You can. As long as nothing goes wrong.
That's why a few of us say to go ahead and cut as long as there is no danger. If you are a house or building or power line - no.

Agreed. If there is nothing in danger of being damaged, and the landowner is cool with it, go ahead and cut.

 

[tsquini]

If it a remote wooded area I'm sure there are a bunch of already down trees. Stick with them for now until you get to know the guy.

 

[jb6l6gc]

Disagree about a liability waiver being useless maybe canadian law is different and we're not as sue crazy. My brother in law is an insurance broker and confirmed a liability waiver will stand here. If u wanted extra coverage it's called a rider policy which is a one time fee for ie.weddings/events and whatnot again no big deal and doesn't cost that much. The way you guys talk maybe we should all live in a bubble lol

 

[Willman]

As the landowner requesting the tree removal I would be quite concerned about you getting hurt or anyone else working on any of my properties/jobs without insurance.

 

[jb6l6gc]

As the landowner requesting the tree removal I would be quite concerned about you getting hurt or anyone else working on any of my properties/jobs without insurance.

Than pay a professional arborist then

 

[BrotherBart]

I let a gypsy cutter do a chop and drop here a few weeks ago. First time anybody ever dropped a tree on this place but me. But it had a huge limb hanging on it that would make weird stuff happen and I ain't climbing anything anymore. Ever again. Nothing he could drop it on but dirt and if he killed himself climbing or dropping it the homeowner's insurance liability part would probably pay for sweeping him into the dust pan. He drove up and asked. OK.

Put it right where I told him to.