Liner, or no?
- Thread starter stockdoct
- Start date
-
Active since 1995, Hearth.com is THE place on the internet for free information and advice about wood stoves, pellet stoves and other energy saving equipment.
We strive to provide opinions, articles, discussions and history related to Hearth Products and in a more general sense, energy issues.
We promote the EFFICIENT, RESPONSIBLE, CLEAN and SAFE use of all fuels, whether renewable or fossil.
- Status
Wow, $1200 for a 2 ply flex liner installed in that chimney sounds DIRT cheap to me! Like I mentioned, my install is a little hairier, but I didn't think there was a chance in hell that I'd be able to get a 2 ply liner down mine w/o a major scaffolding or lift system. I just ordered the regular single ply flexliner (Magnaflex) for my install and I'm really nervous about how I'm going to get that in there... I can't get over those guys doing yours with 2 ply, no lift, and all for $1200. I wish I could have found a deal like that!
Wow
Thats a price I think they will regret!! Go with it?? I thought I had calculated your mortar joints and courses of brick from the lowest point and came up with a rough heighth of around 10 ft.(not knowing your brick size or mortar) I`d like to watch that install, could learn a thing or two. Not mant people are up to climbing a ladder, removing vent caps and sitting on top of chimney to feed down or pull up the liner, however I dont see any other way.
Thats a price I think they will regret!! Go with it?? I thought I had calculated your mortar joints and courses of brick from the lowest point and came up with a rough heighth of around 10 ft.(not knowing your brick size or mortar) I`d like to watch that install, could learn a thing or two. Not mant people are up to climbing a ladder, removing vent caps and sitting on top of chimney to feed down or pull up the liner, however I dont see any other way.Everything came together today, and I learned a bunch. I learned:
My 100 year old chimney was not lined at all .... just bricks (see pic)
Chimney was surprisingly clean. Maybe the Soot-Eater actually worked!
The sweeps removed 5 gallons of creosote, many in huge 8-10" chunks around the smoke chamber that looked like asphalt.
These guys were fabulous, incredible, crawling on the roof and making it look easy.
They tuckpointed the chimney when they were done, grinding out the eroded stuff and using probably 2 gallons of mortar on a hundred spots that were weather-beaten.
They had to remove not only the damper, but the steel housing the damper was in and some stone --- needed stone saws and a small sledge and an extra hour to do the job to make room for the 6" sleeve.
Liner is in, insulation at the the top is stuffed, chimney cap is tight, and my stove is ready for next year!
My 100 year old chimney was not lined at all .... just bricks (see pic)
Chimney was surprisingly clean. Maybe the Soot-Eater actually worked!
The sweeps removed 5 gallons of creosote, many in huge 8-10" chunks around the smoke chamber that looked like asphalt.
These guys were fabulous, incredible, crawling on the roof and making it look easy.
They tuckpointed the chimney when they were done, grinding out the eroded stuff and using probably 2 gallons of mortar on a hundred spots that were weather-beaten.
They had to remove not only the damper, but the steel housing the damper was in and some stone --- needed stone saws and a small sledge and an extra hour to do the job to make room for the 6" sleeve.
Liner is in, insulation at the the top is stuffed, chimney cap is tight, and my stove is ready for next year!
Attachments
![[Hearth.com] Liner, or no?](/talk/data/attachments/17/17099-2367e9e567bad4f81833a81cbd842847.jpg?hash=z0K0MV8KnU)
![[Hearth.com] Liner, or no?](/talk/data/attachments/17/17100-e7f84cc5ba7de361bb9ac017221d8eea.jpg?hash=XbVFtHfvx7)
![[Hearth.com] Liner, or no?](/talk/data/attachments/17/17101-4b52d2bd8d2aa07cde04310a7c2a5afc.jpg?hash=pMHjODasNB)
![[Hearth.com] Liner, or no?](/talk/data/attachments/17/17102-d312938df28930b46227d1673296e62f.jpg?hash=Pgih5tI2VX)
Nice, it sounds like you made out very well.
It never ceases to amaze me how some people can be that comfortable and relaxed working at those elevations with minimal footing. My hands are sweating looking at those pictures and thinking about doing mine!
It never ceases to amaze me how some people can be that comfortable and relaxed working at those elevations with minimal footing. My hands are sweating looking at those pictures and thinking about doing mine!
Good to see progress.I could visualize the ladder, but now I see why 3 people were needed! Bet thats one heavy ladder and one tiring climb to the top! Was that your $1200 bid? Will they be doing your sweep for you? IT`s hard to believe he didnt tie off,,,you would really have to trust the second guy keeping the right amunt of slack in the loop! WOW!
that install must have been teat! the opening in the chimney was huge, getting the liner to go down would be like throwing a hot dog down a hallway!
Thats good to hear summit, for mine chimney would be almost as large, without clay liner. I guess thats no reason to step up to double wall , is it? Same damper situation to deal with and I think there is a little bend above the smoke chamber.
I don't know which is the worst job. The guy straddling the top of the roof or the s.o.b. on the 60' ladder. F**k that, I'll pass!
And $1200 is a steal! Each of my installs costs me about $1500.
And $1200 is a steal! Each of my installs costs me about $1500.
It never ceases to amaze me how some people can be that comfortable and relaxed working at those elevations with minimal footing. My hands are sweating looking at those pictures and thinking about doing mine!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So relaxed, they were, that if you enlarge the close-up photo of the 3 guys, you'll notice the bottom guy is smoking a cigarette!
They worked hard, they were both friendly and professional, had a great result in a difficult situation, for a very reasonable price. I'm recommending them to all my friends.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So relaxed, they were, that if you enlarge the close-up photo of the 3 guys, you'll notice the bottom guy is smoking a cigarette!
They worked hard, they were both friendly and professional, had a great result in a difficult situation, for a very reasonable price. I'm recommending them to all my friends.
You should call them back and ask them why they didn't follow code and wrap the whole liner in insulation.
Please, educate me on this .... I'm a doctor, not a builder, and I'm ignorant about the standards of chimney maitenance just as you would be ignorant about the technique of removing a gallbladder or treating breast cancer.
What is code?
Is it a generally "accepted" standard, loosely monitored and not really enforced? or is it a hard line definition that is binding by legal action and punishment if it is not abided?
Is it by local ordinance, state enforcement, or something larger? Does my installer need to follow my city's building code, or is there a national code? When I look up my city building code on-line, I can't find a single thing on chimney liners, and yet you're telling my mine is not "up-to-code". Where might I find code? All I know, is my chimney with a stainless steel double-walled liner is now far safer than what it was a week ago, a bare-brick chimney, unlined, which even in that state has had no problems in 90-100 years of continuous use.
I will certainly call these guys on "code" , who climbed my roof like it was a playground, made my fireplace and my home much safer, and charged me a reasonable fee ....... but I need more information.
Tell me about "code", and how they violated it.
What is code?
Is it a generally "accepted" standard, loosely monitored and not really enforced? or is it a hard line definition that is binding by legal action and punishment if it is not abided?
Is it by local ordinance, state enforcement, or something larger? Does my installer need to follow my city's building code, or is there a national code? When I look up my city building code on-line, I can't find a single thing on chimney liners, and yet you're telling my mine is not "up-to-code". Where might I find code? All I know, is my chimney with a stainless steel double-walled liner is now far safer than what it was a week ago, a bare-brick chimney, unlined, which even in that state has had no problems in 90-100 years of continuous use.
I will certainly call these guys on "code" , who climbed my roof like it was a playground, made my fireplace and my home much safer, and charged me a reasonable fee ....... but I need more information.
Tell me about "code", and how they violated it.
Well, it's like that off-spec use of certain prescription drugs!
It used to be that almost no chimneys were lined. Then, for reasons of safety and proper stove operation...as well as easier cleaning, the codes and practices changed over the years.
Going back to the code thing......I would bet that 90% or more of installations don't meet code....in the strictest sense. Years ago we even had a very knowledgeable BUILDING INSPECTOR who was a forum member and installed a stove for someone (volunteered) on the forum. Guess what? The other local inspector (it was a different town) looked at it and it was not up to code (as per the manual).
So, on the insulation thing.....it's somewhat the same thing. Here are just some of the variables.....I should mention that I did not read the whole thread yet.
The biggest reason for insulation - in terms of the code - is the safety of nearby wood framing. When UL tests are done on liners with insulation, you can bet that they use a (faked) dangerous chimney to insert them in. In other words, they don't test them inside a tile lined chimney which just has some cracks! They would use the worst case scenario (to my knowledge), which is wood framing members directly against a single thickness of brick and the liner touching the brick on the inside. Then they fire up that liner to temperatures you can only dream about (or have nightmares about!)......like 2100 degree, hot enough to almost melt iron. Aluminum would have been liquid at 1300, brass would have melted at 1700, etc.
Since neither companies nor UL want to test for every scenario, they only test for worse case. But in the real world, many people line chimneys on a semi-voluntary basis. Or, they line a perfectly good fireplace chimney just to make it smaller inside, not because it is unsafe to hold a fire.
Again, I'm not privy to your chimney pics yet - but, in general, if your chimney was one brick thick and had no tile liner...and was near wood framing (and most are), then insulation would be required. If it were already in decent shape and the lining was for ease of cleaning and better draft, then it might be optional.
I hope that gives some of the info...
It used to be that almost no chimneys were lined. Then, for reasons of safety and proper stove operation...as well as easier cleaning, the codes and practices changed over the years.
Going back to the code thing......I would bet that 90% or more of installations don't meet code....in the strictest sense. Years ago we even had a very knowledgeable BUILDING INSPECTOR who was a forum member and installed a stove for someone (volunteered) on the forum. Guess what? The other local inspector (it was a different town) looked at it and it was not up to code (as per the manual).
So, on the insulation thing.....it's somewhat the same thing. Here are just some of the variables.....I should mention that I did not read the whole thread yet.
The biggest reason for insulation - in terms of the code - is the safety of nearby wood framing. When UL tests are done on liners with insulation, you can bet that they use a (faked) dangerous chimney to insert them in. In other words, they don't test them inside a tile lined chimney which just has some cracks! They would use the worst case scenario (to my knowledge), which is wood framing members directly against a single thickness of brick and the liner touching the brick on the inside. Then they fire up that liner to temperatures you can only dream about (or have nightmares about!)......like 2100 degree, hot enough to almost melt iron. Aluminum would have been liquid at 1300, brass would have melted at 1700, etc.
Since neither companies nor UL want to test for every scenario, they only test for worse case. But in the real world, many people line chimneys on a semi-voluntary basis. Or, they line a perfectly good fireplace chimney just to make it smaller inside, not because it is unsafe to hold a fire.
Again, I'm not privy to your chimney pics yet - but, in general, if your chimney was one brick thick and had no tile liner...and was near wood framing (and most are), then insulation would be required. If it were already in decent shape and the lining was for ease of cleaning and better draft, then it might be optional.
I hope that gives some of the info...
Well, I looked.......
Yeah, by the letter of the code (which does apply everywhere...although the manual can supersede code, so the installers could claim it is correct)......most folks would insulate a liner placed in a chimney like that (with no flue liner).
Then again, that chimney looks to be more than one brick thick - maybe a brick and then a stone veneer, and the interior brick is in decent shape.
I guess to be more specific....
Is it gonna burn the house down? Probably not, because it seems to be vastly safer than it was before.
Does it meet the NFPA (National Fire Protection Association) standards - which are applicable most everywhere? Probably not.
Here are some links:
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/install_insert
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/reline_masonry_chimney/
(broken link removed)
Yeah, by the letter of the code (which does apply everywhere...although the manual can supersede code, so the installers could claim it is correct)......most folks would insulate a liner placed in a chimney like that (with no flue liner).
Then again, that chimney looks to be more than one brick thick - maybe a brick and then a stone veneer, and the interior brick is in decent shape.
I guess to be more specific....
Is it gonna burn the house down? Probably not, because it seems to be vastly safer than it was before.
Does it meet the NFPA (National Fire Protection Association) standards - which are applicable most everywhere? Probably not.
Here are some links:
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/install_insert
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/reline_masonry_chimney/
(broken link removed)
stockdoct::Sorry for the confusion. It really appears that your thread developed quickly. In the course of four days it hit the board and 2 days spent on informing of the need to utilize a liner despite your success as noted. Then two days of discussing the unsurmountable installation and costs issues. And then boom,,you got the ball rolling, installers were there and gone. Not surprising for a Doctor to be action affirmative and not one for procrastination. We did hit on the insulation issue in thread #62, and #63 but I drew attention away from it with #64,,and you may have missed it. I feel like a sore thumb despite the fact it had been previously mentioned prior to that. You really had some on the ball people following this thread, and a lot of discussion was back and forth between them all along hoping you were absorbing the info. Sorry once again!
If in fact you determine that the installation is remarkable and in need of a "bandage", please note such , as we all are here to help.
All that being said; You really got a great deal on the installation and your savings should warrant addressing a solid block off plate (not to terribly difficult)and you will benefit regardless of the decision to insulate or not. The block-off plate was mentioned very briefly and only once if memory serves,,
If in fact you determine that the installation is remarkable and in need of a "bandage", please note such , as we all are here to help.
All that being said; You really got a great deal on the installation and your savings should warrant addressing a solid block off plate (not to terribly difficult)and you will benefit regardless of the decision to insulate or not. The block-off plate was mentioned very briefly and only once if memory serves,,
stockdoct,
Code requires insulating the SS liner if there is no other liner in the chimney (which yours does not have), OR if there are visible cracks in the old existing clay liner (which you obviously don't even have a clay liner). So yes, to meet code you would need to have your new SS liner insulated. That much I do know. What I don't know is if an insurance company would pay a claim should you have a fire. You have contracted this crew to make improvements to your chimney, but the work was not done to code (no insulation in an otherwise unlined chimney). So while it is certainly more safe than it was previously, you also know that the work preformed doesn't meet the requirements... so it could be a little dicey should there be an unfortunate issue in the future.
Code requires insulating the SS liner if there is no other liner in the chimney (which yours does not have), OR if there are visible cracks in the old existing clay liner (which you obviously don't even have a clay liner). So yes, to meet code you would need to have your new SS liner insulated. That much I do know. What I don't know is if an insurance company would pay a claim should you have a fire. You have contracted this crew to make improvements to your chimney, but the work was not done to code (no insulation in an otherwise unlined chimney). So while it is certainly more safe than it was previously, you also know that the work preformed doesn't meet the requirements... so it could be a little dicey should there be an unfortunate issue in the future.
Note that some insulation can be poured in without removal of the liner. This means no undoing of work.
example
(broken link removed to http://www.hartshearth.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=3577)
example
(broken link removed to http://www.hartshearth.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=3577)
- Feb 10, 2006
- 259
Your roof and pitch is similiar to mine. It can be done if you know people who have the right size ladder and who are not afraid of heights. We installed the liner within 3 hours which included installing the insulation wrap first. And 30min of me walking on the roof to get use to the pitch...
Regardless, I would keep those dudes on retainer. There is no way Im getting on that roof. No way anyone around here is doing that install for less than $2000.
- Status
Similar threads
