NC educators leaving the state

[begreen]

Quelle surprise. Treat the teachers like crap and they decide to leave in droves. How is this good for a state?
http://wunc.org/post/alarming-number-teachers-resigning-wake-county

 

[Mrs. Krabappel]

It's less people to fire when the privileged kids have their charter school and everyone else is at home learning from an iPad

 

[Lake Girl]

No incentive for advance degrees? No benefit for dedication to a job = years of experience?

How do they determine teacher excellence? A test taken by students? Can be statistically skewed in so many ways ...

Not surprising there is a mass exodus with no job security and very little if any incentive.

 

[begreen]

No incentive for advance degrees? No benefit for dedication to a job = years of experience?

How do they determine teacher excellence? A test taken by students? Can be statistically skewed in so many ways ...

An ignorant electorate is much easier to manage.

 

[Lake Girl]

Just for fun I was poking around looking at starting salaries by capital (Edit: not capitals - just large) city/state, NC is at the bottom of the pile from the few that I checked ....
http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Elementary_School_Teacher/Salary With the wages they offer, they won't even get the mediocre as those teachers with half a brain will move on to better job markets.

Yeah, the politicians seem to be saying the right things about keeping costs down but you always have to look under the surface to find the undercurrents they are not sharing ...

Why is this relevant? Daughter is dating a young man from SC and just graduated from University of Winnipeg, Manitoba with a B Ed. - not sure if it is heading to long term relationship but... Luckily, she has no debt - planning on Mom/Dad's part and some part-time work from her Starting wages in Canada are over the median wages in most of the states. As I look at the wages there, I wonder how long it takes teachers to pay back those loans ...

Curious - what wage level is the poverty line in the US?

 

[webbie]

Pay doesn't always equate with teacher quality - but you have to give them (the good ones) reasons for staying.

That is, many private schools, like our local Friends Schools, don't pay that well - but the teachers have a lot of freedom on how to teach. I suppose the same is true for many private schools.

Public schools differ, but it seems to me that forcing teachers to be more "production line" would make them want more salary and benefits. At least that's how I would feel. Our local highly rated schools back in NJ (wealthy area) had a number of good teachers, but when some of them made "political" mistakes, even the best were shown who was boss (the admin and the school board, etc.). I remember when "everybody's favorite teacher" of 25 years experience was sent out to the woodshed for some ridiculous reason. Because of union rules, they could not fire her but they made sure she couldn't enjoy doing what she did.
Another of my kids faves was targeted by Falwell and crew for a case that almost went to the SCOTUS.
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Teach...peech+in+the+classroom,+federal...-a020587689

I have no problem with the eventual ipad apps for learning....in many cases of the rote subjects, they will do a great job. But where does the inspiration come from? Hopefully the ipad apps will have an animated Ben Franklin talking to them about his inventions!


I'm fine with a future that has fewer teachers.....but higher quality ones. Large institutions move very slowly, but most futurists know that education needs to be revolutionized. In the Steve Jobs book it mentions that he felt the ipad would help....and may have even got involved in this if he lived.

 

[Mrs. Krabappel]

Craig, what you are failing to see is that funding will still be spent at the same level for that kid learning from an ipad. The difference in $$ will go into the pocket of a private corporation. I believe that education needs a revolution, but not in the direction we are headed.

Pay doesn't assure quality in most areas. I've worked for total morons who make bank. In education you don't get to apprentice. You have to bring your A game every single day, starting with day 1 on the job. In addition, we are the crux of the community. We do so much more than teach. I'd love you to spend a day at my school so you could point our the low quality teachers. I cannot find them. Even ones who are not necessarily fabulous in front of the kids play important roles otherwise, like being the one who knows how to teach programming and runs the robotics club.

Private schools don't have to teach everybody. You cannot compare.

 

[firefighterjake]

Folks who complain about teachers making too much money, having the luxury of so much time off or having great pensions should spend a week or so in their local school . . . it would be eye opening.

It really is quite different from the school that most of us remember . . . a lot more "problem" or "special needs" students, lots of mandated tests and today's teacher/school nurse/counselor truly does a lot more than just teach these days.

 

[begreen]

They certainly should get higher pay than the politicians. They are far more important to our greater good.

 

[Lake Girl]

...I'm fine with a future that has fewer teachers.....but higher quality ones. Large institutions move very slowly, but most futurists know that education needs to be revolutionized. In the Steve Jobs book it mentions that he felt the ipad would help....and may have even got involved in this if he lived.

Pay doesn't always equate with teacher quality but, there will be winners and losers in that scheme based on unidentified factors (see article) ... not necessarily good or bad teachers. Should teachers that miss the "mark," whatever that mark may be, be punished for not being a teacher that "adds value" per assessment? What about intangibles? What about teachers that are consistently good but not the best? No wage increases and no stable contracts? What kind of environment will be created when teaching becomes a competition not a cooperative effort? http://wunc.org/post/ranking-teachers-nc-bets-big-complicated-stats-model

As to "production line", if ranking is based largely on student assessments you get teaching to the test - not very creative. I've done the drill of testing (NY State Regents diploma) but is it the teacher's fault that I didn't get physics? (I did pass though) I've also seen the other extreme of educational experiment - "whole language" in Ontario was a bust and left a large group of children lagging in spelling and writing skills. My two oldest sons were part of that one . I spent a lot of time proof reading ... not all parents can or will do that.

The "technology" experiment is still unfolding ... brain changes have been identified by Harvard researchers but the jury is still out on whether that is a positive or negative.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...ging-way-brains-work-says-neuroscientist.html

The ipad concept has proven helpful in many areas but is not always effective when you have 30 kids that are 6 years of age - smaller class size or teacher assistants are a whole lot more realistic. Oh - but they're not included in the assessment - how are those teachers rated? What about each child's own learning style? Creative abilities? Do those suffer because of reliance on technology and assessment? That's not even considering children with learning disabilities, behavioral problems, or issues at home ... those all present challenges in the classroom. Technology may be able to help in some aspects of a classroom but it is not the whole answer.

And what does reliance on technology and "value added" assessment say about the value of human contact and socialization? I've worked with teens and young adults with the disabilities, problems and issues ... a person who has empathy, pays attention, discusses problems/solutions and has realistic expectations for that child makes a huge difference. After that, you can start building mastery of skills....

I'm not impressed with the NC plan...

Edit: Mrs. K - just realized you're in the line of fire - good luck!

 

[Beer Belly]

I work for a school system, and I can tell you that teachers earn their pay.....their day does not end when the bell rings, some work on grading papers, and classroom planning till late into the night. I wondering if these teachers have a union or a contract for fair wages.

 

[Jags]

I am sure for several different reasons that it can't happen, but I have wished for a few years now that Mrs. K would give a truncated version of the trouble/solution that the fine folks in the trenches would like to see implemented.

Our school systems are not doing justice to the students (and teachers). I am fully convinced that throwing money at the schools (in most cases) isn't going to fix the underlying problems. Why isn't anybody asking the teachers??? How did the final product (student) get less education than those of yesteryear? It ain't right.

If you have a problem with your car you ask your mechanic.
If we are have problems with education/students - ASK A TEACHER.

 

[Grisu]

I am sure for several different reasons that it can't happen, but I have wished for a few years now that Mrs. K would give a truncated version of the trouble/solution that the fine folks in the trenches would like to see implemented.

Our school systems are not doing justice to the students (and teachers). I am fully convinced that throwing money at the schools (in most cases) isn't going to fix the underlying problems. Why isn't anybody asking the teachers??? How did the final product (student) get less education than those of yesteryear? It ain't right.

If you have a problem with your car you ask your mechanic.
If we are have problems with education/students - ASK A TEACHER.

Simple: Fix the kids' homes and many "school" problems will be solved. If you have shoddy built car, don't expect your mechanic to fix that either.

 

[Jags]

Simple: Fix the kids' homes and many "school" problems will be solved. If you have shoddy built car, don't expect your mechanic to fix that either.

I understand that this is an issue, but by far, not the only one.

 

[begreen]

Since when is fixing family dysfunction simple? It often goes on for generations. Good schools and teachers are often where the pattern finally gets changed.

 

[Grisu]

Since when is fixing family dysfunction simple? It often goes on for generations. Good schools and teachers are often where the pattern finally gets changed.

Simple referred to identifying the real problem; was not meant to imply that fixing that would be a piece of cake. However, reducing wealth inequality could go a long way to better education success:

(broken image removed)

Look how students from low income families fall behind when not in school (yellow circles = summer vacation):

PISA math scores also have a negative correlation with economic equality: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-4x6nQ8j5f.../sbiarRYvSH0/s1600/pisa_income_inequality.png

 

[Lake Girl]

I work for a school system, and I can tell you that teachers earn their pay.....their day does not end when the bell rings, some work on grading papers, and classroom planning till late into the night. I wondering if these teachers have a union or a contract for fair wages.

No longer have tenure and pay raises are based on legislated child assessment system ... http://wunc.org/post/school-boards-challenge-elimination-teacher-tenure

Assessment has its place to ensure that school systems are meeting the benchmarks but they do not identify why those benchmarks may not be reached. Increased class size, loss of teacher assistants, higher rates of learning disabilities and behavior issues, loss of family economic security to name a few.

Teachers are constantly being stripped of power over what goes on in their classrooms - can't give zeros, can't fail students. This is just another way of undermining them further - strip them of economic security. How does that help NC maintain the teachers they do have much less attract "the best"? Student enrollment of teacher education programs is down too. Sad state of affairs for education in NC ...

 

[DBNH22]

I work for a school system, and I can tell you that teachers earn their pay.....their day does not end when the bell rings, some work on grading papers, and classroom planning till late into the night. I wondering if these teachers have a union or a contract for fair wages.

Eh that is an an untrue blanket statement. The side that sticks up for the teachers screams when anyone makes blanket statements criticizing all teachers. I don't like to hear about how all teachers work so hard or love the kids so much because it's just not true. Many teachers are doing nothing more than going through the motions and collecting a paycheck. Many other teachers are just not good teachers. With the teaching profession, as with any other profession, there are some who are very competent and passionate and others who just plain suck.

I think merit pay and the ability to fire bad teachers would go a long way to improve the public education system. However the teachers unions aren't going to let that happen any time soon. The teachers unions are the main reason why our public education system in this country is in such pitiful shape.

Also, if you're someone like me, who is fairly traditional and conservative it's also disturbing to see teachers and administrators, whose salaries I pay for in part through my property taxes, injecting their personal political views into all aspects of the public education system. Another thing is when schools try to play doctor by labeling certain kids with ADHD and pressuring parents to put their children on drugs like ritalin or adderal. Congress passed a law several years ago pertaining to this but it still goes on at schools.

In any event is it any wonder that pretty much all parents with the financial means to avoid the public school system by sending their kids to private schools do so?

 

[Jags]

In any event is it any wonder that pretty much all parents with the financial means to avoid the public school system by sending their kids to private schools do so?

Another blanket statement that is simply not true. The public school system that gets my cash is pretty darn high on the list of best schools in the state. That includes private schools. Constantly ranking in the top 10. Yep - a little ole country school. Their biggest enemy is folks moving to the area for the "school system" and then try to change things. It seems that many parents don't hold little Jimmy and Kimmy accountable like the (our) school system does - and they think it is too rigid or tough.

Tough cookies - they can conform or leave. Their choice.

Edit: I personally heard the argument from a set of parents that they had to help their kids with homework just to get a passing grade. Really? Tough.

 

[Beer Belly]

How would they rate a teachers ability to teach, if you have students who just don't get it.....students scores could be due to the students just not performing as they should.....you can bring a horse to water, but you can't make them drink. I agree, that some teachers are just going thru the motions, but I know a lot that are in our building till 9pm grading papers, and meeting with others planning classroom studies....not to mention meeting with parents. Unions have their place when it comes to fair wages and treatment, but in most cases they are used to defend those who should otherwise be gone.

 

[DBNH22]

How would they rate a teachers ability to teach, if you have students who just don't get it.....students scores could be due to the students just not performing as they should.....you can bring a horse to water, but you can't make them drink. I agree, that some teachers are just going thru the motions, but I know a lot that are in our building till 9pm grading papers, and meeting with others planning classroom studies....not to mention meeting with parents. Unions have their place when it comes to fair wages and treatment, but in most cases they are used to defend those who should otherwise be gone.

Obviously you'd have to look at a teacher's results over a period of years with many different students (as with any study the larger the sample size the more accurate the picture that's painted) And of course there are hard working dedicated teachers who genuinely care about their students. As for the unions though, their priority is their own survival and power, not the teachers, the students or the quality of our education system.

 

[DBNH22]

Another blanket statement that is simply not true. The public school system that gets my cash is pretty darn high on the list of best schools in the state. That includes private schools. Constantly ranking in the top 10. Yep - a little ole country school. Their biggest enemy is folks moving to the area for the "school system" and then try to change things. It seems that many parents don't hold little Jimmy and Kimmy accountable like the (our) school system does - and they think it is too rigid or tough.

Tough cookies - they can conform or leave. Their choice.

Edit: I personally heard the argument from a set of parents that they had to help their kids with homework just to get a passing grade. Really? Tough.

You're kidding right? You can cherry pick a decent public school here or there but the vast majority of parents would jump at the chance to send their kids to private school. it's like all the big mouthed hollywood actors/politicians talking about how great public school teachers and schools are yet they send their own kids to private schools. Can you say hypocrite with a capital H?

 

[Jags]

You're kidding right?

No. This is not the only example of a high performing school in my area. Most of them would be considered rural by most standards.

 

[begreen]

Too many blanket statements here. Improving education is a non-trivial problem. To blame it all on the teachers, unions, administrators is finger-pointing and not a solution. For sure parents are also a large part of the problem or solution. We are fortunate in our very small rural community to have a school system that works and place in the top 20 of the state consistently. I attribute part of this to an understanding that teaching is a community effort. Our teachers get a lot of support and help from the community and that makes a big difference.

 

[DBNH22]

My point was that if you took a random sampling of 100 parents from different parts of the country whose kids are currently in public schools and gave them the option of their children attending a private school instead the vast majority of them would most likely take you up on the offer. Most people view the private school option as superior to the public school system as a general rule.