Need help on Generator

[BucksCounty]

Been in the house a year now and have lost power twice. This time it has been out since 2am Sunday and PECO says not coming back until 11:00 pm on Thursday. this is a problem when you are an all electric house with a well and the neighbors said this is the 5th time in the last 2 years this has happened and every time it is a substantial amount of time.

I want to look into buying a generator. All I really want to run is a fridge, the well pump, a light or 2 and maybe a TV. I am not worried about heat in the winter because of the stoves. I believe the well pump is 20 amp...1/4 hp...I think. Will verify later. What size generator do I need? Also, is there a way to have an outlet for the well pump installed? It is hard wired now to the board.

What something good but don't want to pay tons. I know...you get what you pay for. Any ideas?

This sucks.

 

[DexterDay]

I have a 4400 watt Homelite. It does the Sump Pump, Fridge, freezer, A/C, couple lights, and Oh, and alarm clock if I have to work. Runs for almost 10 hrs on a full tank (About 6gallons).

 

[MasterMech]

Look on the back of the appliances you want to run. There should be a tag that states how much current it requires. Just convert it to watts (if it's listed in amps [A] ) and add them all up. Then once you have a rough number, that will be your minimum continuous rating on the generator. You will need some surge capacity as well since many items require much more power at startup than they do normally.

Example:

Fridge: 500W
Freezer: 500W
Microwave: 1200W
Misc Lights: 500W
Well Pump: 750W
Furnace/Boiler: 600W
Wife's Hairdryer: 1900W

Total: 5950W

5950W / 80% (To avoid overloads) = 7438W ( 7500W Continuous Rating )

Look carefully as most generators are rated based on their surge ratings with the continuous rating buried in fine print or the manual.

Here's a link to a sizing calculator for stand-by generators and it may give you a fairly decent idea of what you need.

(broken link removed to http://www.kohlerpower.com/residential/solutions/sizingcalculatorwizard.htm?sectionNumber=13561&nodeNumber=1&contentNumber=103#)

Now for your situation I would reccomend looking into a transfer switch setup to run several circuits in your house. The most inexpensive way to set it up would be a portable generator plugged into a special receptacle (usually mounted in the garage or outside) connected to a manual transfer switch. When the power goes out, you wheel/drag your generator out near the outlet, plug it in and fire it up. Then operate the transfer switch to connect the generator and isolate you from the utility lines.

I know you mentioned not wanting to spend a fortune but you also can check out fully automatic Generator/Transfer Switch combinations. If the power goes out frequently where you are, then I'd look long and hard at this and the prices are getting better all the time as more and more people are having these units installed. The generator works even if you're at work/on vaction etc. You will need a fuel supply, Nat. Gas if you have it or a large LP tank, to power the generator.

 

[ajreid]

Be sure to get one that is capable of 220v for the well pump. You can get by with a lot smaller generator if you are willing to turn a few breakers off til needed. That way the refrigerator,microwave, and well pump don't all come on at the same time. If you have an electric hot water heater it is a big load also.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Be sure to get one that is capable of 220v for the well pump. You can get by with a lot smaller generator if you are willing to turn a few breakers off til needed. That way the refrigerator,microwave, and well pump don't all come on at the same time. If you have an electric hot water heater it is a big load also.

Word.

The fridge, freezer, etc do not all the time anyway. If you power them up for an hour a day your stuff will stay cold.



I just pulled a double breaker and installed an outlet on a 240v septic pump so the same generator could power both the well pump and septic. All that is needed is the generator is moved from the pump house to the electrical box that holds the breaker for the septic pump. I also used a real small portable generator to recool a few different friges in cabins by shutting off the main and then backfeeding through an outlet. If people could get to their frige plug behind it I could have just plugged in the frige without any issues.

Matt

 

[flewism]

I run a 8500 surge, 5500 continuous Generac in a 2100sqft ranch with a well and septic pump, It can't run everything at once. We have two fridges and a large freezer and with all the other crap it keeps us comfortable. I can get an honest 8 hours out of a tank.

 

[MasterMech]

EatenByLimestone's post:

"I also used a real small portable generator to recool a few different friges in cabins by shutting off the main and then backfeeding through an outlet."

Now for your situation I would reccomend looking into a transfer switch setup to run several circuits in your house. The most inexpensive and LEGAL way to set it up would be a portable generator plugged into a special receptacle (usually mounted in the garage or outside) connected to a manual transfer switch. When the power goes out, you wheel/drag your generator out near the outlet, plug it in and fire it up. Then operate the transfer switch to connect the generator and isolate you from the utility lines.

I should have made that distinction before. While there is no technical issue with backfeeding through outlets with the Main Breaker off/pulled, if you're going to be using a generator every now and again, it makes sense to invest in a safe, legal, and convenient setup.

 

[velvetfoot]

A 5kw gen. was too weak to power my deep well pump and had to get a bigger one. They can draw a lot, depending on the setup. Too bad there'd be no way to test it first. But, if you know the specs, you're a step ahead. Don't forget the motor inrush current. We also have a little generator which is great on fuel (who wants to go looking for an open gas station and then wait in line). Running the big genny, we've run it 45 min. or so a day to take showers and store up some water, etc.

As far as transfer switches, an economical solution is a sliding metal plate, like in my old fabulous thread here:
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/19946/

 

[fabsroman]

Look on the back of the appliances you want to run. There should be a tag that states how much current it requires. Just convert it to watts (if it's listed in amps [A] ) and add them all up. Then once you have a rough number, that will be your minimum continuous rating on the generator. You will need some surge capacity as well since many items require much more power at startup than they do normally.

Example:

Fridge: 500W
Freezer: 500W
Microwave: 1200W
Misc Lights: 500W
Well Pump: 750W
Furnace/Boiler: 600W
Wife's Hairdryer: 1900W

Total: 5950W

5950W / 80% (To avoid overloads) = 7438W ( 7500W Continuous Rating )

Look carefully as most generators are rated based on their surge ratings with the continuous rating buried in fine print or the manual.

Here's a link to a sizing calculator for stand-by generators and it may give you a fairly decent idea of what you need.

(broken link removed to http://www.kohlerpower.com/residential/solutions/sizingcalculatorwizard.htm?sectionNumber=13561&nodeNumber=1&contentNumber=103#)

Now for your situation I would reccomend looking into a transfer switch setup to run several circuits in your house. The most inexpensive way to set it up would be a portable generator plugged into a special receptacle (usually mounted in the garage or outside) connected to a manual transfer switch. When the power goes out, you wheel/drag your generator out near the outlet, plug it in and fire it up. Then operate the transfer switch to connect the generator and isolate you from the utility lines.

I know you mentioned not wanting to spend a fortune but you also can check out fully automatic Generator/Transfer Switch combinations. If the power goes out frequently where you are, then I'd look long and hard at this and the prices are getting better all the time as more and more people are having these units installed. The generator works even if you're at work/on vaction etc. You will need a fuel supply, Nat. Gas if you have it or a large LP tank, to power the generator.

We have only been in the house for 6 months now, but plan on being here for another 30+. After losing power for 2 days, I am going to go the transfer switch/generator route. Might even go with 2 transfer switches since we have 300 amps coming into the house via two 150 amp feeds into separate breaker boxes. I am looking at using something like this:

(broken link removed to http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051&productId=202214969&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&MERCH=REC-_-product-1-_-202019405-_-202214969-_-N&locStoreNum=2579)

Then, I think I am going to go with the 8,000 continuous watt Ridgid generator because 8,000 watts is the maximum that the transfer switch can handle. Should cost me around $1,500 just for a single transfer switch for and one box and the generator. I am also thinking about putting another transfer switch on the other box and moving the generator plug around or buying a second generator. I work from home and not being able to work during tax season would be really expensive for me because of lost revenue. Not to mention it sucks not having water, hot water, etc.

One of my neighbors said that they used ot lose power were all the time, but since they buried the lines in the neighborhood a couple years ago it has been a lot less. Well, I took a look at where the electricity feeds from and it comes in from the main road which has the wires above ground and plenty of huge trees right next to the wires. Something tells me that they have just been lucky over the past couple of years since the wires were put underground, and the wires being put underground in the neighborhood isn't really the reason they haven't had any outages.

We don't go on vacation often enough to justify spending the additional money on an automatic transfer switch, and my parents and siblings are close enough that they could come by and set up the generator for us if we were out of town.

 

[thinkxingu]

fabsroman,
You might want to take a look at the interlock system--it would allow you to connect directly to your panel and have everything at your disposal. You'd just have to selectively shut off the unnecessary breakers.

S

 

[velvetfoot]

A subdivision should receive a higher restoration priority than a single home on a spur.

 

[fabsroman]

fabsroman,
You might want to take a look at the interlock system--it would allow you to connect directly to your panel and have everything at your disposal. You'd just have to selectively shut off the unnecessary breakers.

S

Thanks for that info. It is a lot cheaper and it looks like that is the way I am going to go. I can use a larger generator than an 8,000 continuous watta generator too. Plus, I can get one for each electrical box. I guess it works pretty much like doing a reverse feed on the 220 dryer line would work, but I would just be doing the reverse feed right through a breaker instead. I like the fact that it has something in place to make sure you have the main in the Off position before you can flip the breaker to allow the electricity flow back to the rest of the box. It really looks simple and clean. Might even drill a hole in the wall and mount the plug on the outside of the house if it is rated for exterior use.

This is why I love chatboards. There is always somebody out there with more knowledge about things than me, and I love learning. Thanks again.

 

[MasterMech]

My setup is a manual transfer switch that powers up a sub-panel off the main panel. There's a 8" gong wired to the utility side of the panel with a switch so I know when the power comes on but it's really unnecessary in my case because I know when the power comes back on since everything in the house not wired to the sub-panel comes on with the utility. Includes my range, the washer/dryer, certain receptacles, etc.

The generator itself is a "portable" unit that is placed in the corner of my garage with the exhaust routed outside and a long HD cable with a plug connects it to the transfer switch. It was all built by the previous owner (an electrician by trade) and had I done it myself I would have located the generator outside in a "doghouse" of sorts or gone the outlet/wheeled genset route.

 

[BrotherBart]

Every time I see a mention of backfeeding through a dryer outlet I cringe at the thought of how many watts and amps are being fed through that one outlet and wire. I know zip about electricity but that just sounds scary to me.

 

[Badfish740]

Every time I see a mention of backfeeding through a dryer outlet I cringe at the thought of how many watts and amps are being fed through that one outlet and wire. I know zip about electricity but that just sounds scary to me.

That part is actually a little less scary than you might think-it's the possibility of forgetting to switch off the main that gives me the willies...first and foremost because of the potential danger to the linemen and secondly because of the fire risk. Most dryer wiring is going to be able to handle 30 Amps. Most residential type generators put out about 30-35 Amps at 120V, but when you backfeed into a dryer outlet you're delivering the power at 240V, so the amperage is halved to a much safer 15-17.5 Amps. Still not safe without a proper transfer switch, but FWIW there's your electrical theory lesson for the day

 

[Highbeam]

fabsroman,
You might want to take a look at the interlock system--it would allow you to connect directly to your panel and have everything at your disposal. You'd just have to selectively shut off the unnecessary breakers.

S

Thanks for that info. It is a lot cheaper and it looks like that is the way I am going to go. I can use a larger generator than an 8,000 continuous watta generator too. Plus, I can get one for each electrical box. I guess it works pretty much like doing a reverse feed on the 220 dryer line would work, but I would just be doing the reverse feed right through a breaker instead. I like the fact that it has something in place to make sure you have the main in the Off position before you can flip the breaker to allow the electricity flow back to the rest of the box. It really looks simple and clean. Might even drill a hole in the wall and mount the plug on the outside of the house if it is rated for exterior use.

This is why I love chatboards. There is always somebody out there with more knowledge about things than me, and I love learning. Thanks again.

I have an interlock device. My new panel came equipped with the interlock bar from the factory and the whole system was inspected and passed by the state inspector. I used a 30 amp breaker to backfeed the panel which requires 10 gauge wire which is smaller than the standard 40 amp dryer circuit BTW. I ran that 10 guage gen circuit about 60 feet to an exterior wall and plug where I mounted an official exterior power "inlet" which has male prongs on the outside of the house. That exterior plug is from the home depot and uses a twistlock style plug just like most gensets. You then buy a fat extension cord that mates the genset to the power inlet.

It's really slick. I only have a 3500 watt genset so can only send about 16 amps to my panel. Because of this I simply shut off the breaker to the automatic big loads such as the 60 amp hotub and the 30 amp water heater. Otherwise life is normal during an outage. All the lights work, the fridge and freezer cycle, the TV works. I get more than 12 hours out of the 5 gallon tank on that smaller genset and I don't run it overnight.

Yes, I could run a big manly 6600 watt genset and power the water heater but then fuel consumption would go way way up and I would have to shut everything else off while the heater is running. I chose the smallest 220 volt genset I could find.

 

[gpcollen1]

Every time I see a mention of backfeeding through a dryer outlet I cringe at the thought of how many watts and amps are being fed through that one outlet and wire. I know zip about electricity but that just sounds scary to me.

It should only be bad if your generator exceeds what the 30 Amp circuit can hold. Most of the older generators had the dryer type plug on them already and were basically designed to back feed through that outlet or one like at at the panel. The issue you have is with cowboy engineering folks who don't know the rules or care about them. Most electricians i have spoken with don't have a problem with back feeding as long as you have shut the main off. Of course they recommend a proper hook up - code compliant.

 

[begreen]

Good to hear the concerns about safety. Tying into the main can be done safely, but with some extreme cautions:

1) only do this stone cold sober and in the daylight preferably. When you switch off the main breaker, put a sign on it - DO NOT TOUCH!!
2) Be sure that your main breaker really is the main breaker. For example, there are older style panel the the Main breaker only shuts off the lower half of the panel, typically 120v breakers. The upper portion of the panel (240v loads) remains live. If you have one of these panels, turning off the main breaker, then backfeeding into the dryer receptacle, will be backfeeding into the grid This is very dangerous. Know your panel before trying this. If unsure, then directly connect loads by plugging in heavy duty extension cords.
3) If you are inside an electric panel, treat it as if it is live and hot, even if the power is out. It is possible that one leg may still be hot or that the power could come on while you are in there.
4) Size the generator for the heaviest load's surge current. Typically this is the well pump. These are often 1hp and require a 5-6KW generator for a deep well. Shallow wells may be able to get by with half that size generator. Also, if you have a pump up septic system, don't forget that load.
5) Unless you get a whole house system, get used to managing your loads. That is, say you have a 2KW Honda. That will run a refer and a freezer easily. But if the wife asks if she can vacuum at the same time, ask her to wait.

 

[Badfish740]

2) Be sure that your main breaker really is the main breaker. For example, there are older style panel the the Main breaker only shuts off the lower half of the panel, typically 120v breakers. The upper portion of the panel (240v loads) remains live. If you have one of these panels, turning off the main breaker, then backfeeding into the dryer receptacle, will be backfeeding into the grid This is very dangerous. Know your panel before trying this. If unsure, then directly connect loads by plugging in heavy duty extension cords.

Good information thanks-I was not aware of the possibility of some panels remaining partially hot with the main shut off! I'll be testing mine to be sure. I have a new Square D box, but better safe than sorry.

 

[begreen]

We have an 80's vintage Cutler-Hammer panel that is split this way. I see them out in the field now and again. When we installed grid-tied solar we had a new main panel installed so that now the C-H panel is acting as a sub-panel.

 

[Gary_602z]

One hyphenated word. Sta-Bil USE IT! Because your generator will be setting more than it will be used! Also change out the old gas once in a while.

Gary

 

[fabsroman]

We have an 80's vintage Cutler-Hammer panel that is split this way. I see them out in the field now and again. When we installed grid-tied solar we had a new main panel installed so that now the C-H panel is acting as a sub-panel.

Well, that pretty much gives me the willies, because this house was built in 1987 and it has Cutler Hammer boxes. Thing is, the 220s are all over the place in the box, so I am hoping that the entire box is dead once I turn the main to OFF.

 

[fabsroman]

One hyphenated word. Sta-Bil USE IT! Because your generator will be setting more than it will be used! Also change out the old gas once in a while.

Gary

I use Sta-Bil in all my small tool gasoline and go to the winter mix around September because things might be sitting for quite a while. However, with the generator why not just drain the fuel and run the motor until it uses up all the fuel. Granted, from what I have read a lot of the starting problems occur from condensation in the tank when the tank isn't completely full with gasoline. Should we keep the gas in it for that reason, or is it better to drain it all out?

 

[begreen]

We have an 80's vintage Cutler-Hammer panel that is split this way. I see them out in the field now and again. When we installed grid-tied solar we had a new main panel installed so that now the C-H panel is acting as a sub-panel.

Well, that pretty much gives me the willies, because this house was built in 1987 and it has Cutler Hammer boxes. Thing is, the 220s are all over the place in the box, so I am hoping that the entire box is dead once I turn the main to OFF.

Cutler Hammer makes good equipment. This is just one style of box. I don't think the style was exclusive to C-H and I think they are no longer code allowable. (Fact check please) Post a picture if you can of the breaker panel, or better yet, with the cover off.

 

[Gary_602z]

One hyphenated word. Sta-Bil USE IT! Because your generator will be setting more than it will be used! Also change out the old gas once in a while.

Gary

I use Sta-Bil in all my small tool gasoline and go to the winter mix around September because things might be sitting for quite a while. However, with the generator why not just drain the fuel and run the motor until it uses up all the fuel. Granted, from what I have read a lot of the starting problems occur from condensation in the tank when the tank isn't completely full with gasoline. Should we keep the gas in it for that reason, or is it better to drain it all out?

I would keep it full a generator with no fuel is like not having one! Where is your backup cans and are they treated? Or if you are like me you put the gas in the lawnmower and meant to fill them up before the power went out.

Gary