Need help with secondary burn

[Farmer Sue]

I have the HI300 insert and am trying to get the secondary burn. We followed the instructions on the video's, the wood is dry at about 15-20, don't know the kind of wood. I get the temps up to 747 degrees on the glass and 278-327 degrees on the shelf just above the door, I am using an infrared thermometer, checked- its accurate. Are these temps high enough? The wood burns down fast, gone to coal in about 2 hours, but it is burning off the black creosote off the glass.

My insert is in an interior masonry wall , using a 32' or 33' SS liner. Not insulated. Any suggestions?

 

[tutu_sue]

I have two different free standing stoves and I have also used my IR to monitor temps through the glass. At 500F, the volatile gases are being released and secondary burn starts. As long as I'm getting over 500f at the top log and there are flames all the way across the tubes at the top, the secondaries are kicking in and then I can start lowering the air. I lower 25%, wait for flames across the top, lower again, wait. I find if I lower it and the flames are not all the way across the top, some smoke comes out of the chimney, I give just a touch more to get the flame coverage I need for a clean burn. I don't turn the air down all the way, just enough to get mostly blue flames with a hint of medium to dark orange at the tips. If you have yellow or almost white flames, lower the air until you get orange at the flame tips.

I hope this helps. I know it's tough not having a good place to put the thermometer.

 

[oconnor]

Chasing the illusive secondary burn can be a frustrating process. I find the big box stove guys get the ideal conditions, but in my small Jotul, it is difficult, and when I had my uninslated liner and less than perfectly dried wood last year, it seemed impossible. Rather than focussing on the illusive goal, I focused on getting clean burns at lower air rates (damped down).

I found that it was easier to get ideal low burns when the flue was fully heated up - when equilibrium was achieved between the liner temp and the masonary around it. That took a long time with my uninsulated liner, but is happening more often now.

 

[Backwoods Savage]

I have the HI300 insert and am trying to get the secondary burn. We followed the instructions on the video's, the wood is dry at about 15-20, don't know the kind of wood. I get the temps up to 747 degrees on the glass and 278-327 degrees on the shelf just above the door, I am using an infrared thermometer, checked- its accurate. Are these temps high enough? The wood burns down fast, gone to coal in about 2 hours, but it is burning off the black creosote off the glass.

My insert is in an interior masonry wall , using a 32' or 33' SS liner. Not insulated. Any suggestions?

Farmer, perhaps your moisture check is a bit off. If there is creosote on the glass that wood is probably not that dry. Also, if the wood is burning in 2 hours, perhaps you are having to leave the draft open too much to keep the wood burning. You will find that the greatest percentage of problems with wood stoves is the fuel that you have to burn.

Good luck.

 

[stejus]

I have a HI300. No problems getting secondary if you close down the air. You will not get a secondary burn with the air wide open or even slightly closed. You need to close the air slowly. You should start to see the secondary burn (floating flames bouncing into the door) by the second stage of closing down the air If you see the wood not burning when you start to close the air, it suggests a poor draft or wet wood.

Tell me if you are closing the air, and how fast.

 

[Farmer Sue]

Sorry I have not responded, my Husband hijacked my computer this past few months. In the meantime I have been working with the insert. I can get a good fire burning, glass temps up to 800*, air vent (air comming out) up to 350* and secondary burns in the back. I then start to tamp the intake air down in slow stages 5-10 minuets between stages until it is only open 1.5" (anything less and secondary stops and "red glow" of wood goes out). At this point the heat and secondaries will maintane for about an hour at a glass temp of 750*-650* then secondary goes out but heat will still maintain. Towards the end of the second hour the heat starts to fall, the wood is now a large mound of red coal. I can give it another 1/2 hour but now the glass temp has fallen down to the mid 500*'s and the air temp to mid 200*'s. At this point I have to add more wood on top of the already large mound of red coals.

The Den that this insert is in measures about 17' X 15' with 9' ceilings and a large bay window. There is a door that opens up into the kitchen. The Kitchen is about 30' X 15'. I can not heat this space. The Den can get up to 78-80* by mid day after several loads of wood. But the kitchen is still in the 50's and 60's. I have a ceiling fan in the den that blows up. It is now Noon, I have burned two large loads of wood, it is 35* outside the den is 71* and the kitchen is 56*. Clearly something is not right.

I feel that I am not getting the heat out of this insert, the fire burns down to fast. I am wondering if I should put an insulating blanket around the insert or a lower block off plate. I already have a block off plate up on top of the chimney. You all have provided me with tons of good information already, that is why I conclude that something is wrong but I just can't seem to figure out exactly what it is. Thanks for your help.

 

[begreen]

Two questions here:

1) How to get the stove burning longer? That may depend on how full the stove is when reloaded and how large the wood is? When reloading, fill it full with smaller pieces on the coals and much large pieces on top of that. 6-8" splits should do it.

2) The second question is how to get heat to the kitchen? The ceiling fan is mostly circulating air within the room. Try this. Turn off the ceiling fan. Then take a box or table fan and put it on the floor at the entrance to the kitchen from the den - pointing towards the stove. Put the fan on low speed and I think you will see the den temps go down while the kitchen temps rise.

 

[Farmer Sue]

Update: At noon I put 3 large splits in on top of a large pile of coals. Got it fired up temps back up to 650* on glass, tamped down the air in phases to 1 1/2" open. Its now 1:30 and all wood has gone to coals temp dropped to 550* on glass. I spread out the bed of coals and put 2 large and 1 med. splits in, its fired up to 750* glass temp and air temp 320*. There is lots of fire and some secondary in the back. The wood is black and the edges are glowing red several inches in. I will start to tamp the air down to 1 1/2". Temp in Den is 68* and in the kitchen its 61*.

 

[Farmer Sue]

Thanks BeGreen, our splits are normally 5-6" measuring at end from outside corner across the bark. They tend to be about 16" long. I have been loading by putting the largest in first on top of the coals then squeeze in smaller ones to fit in the gaps. I also try to load most north to south. If you think it would be better to put smaller ones in first I will try that when I next load up.

With regards to the fan. In the beginning I did use a floor fan pointing towards the insert but it pulled so much cold air into the room that our legs were cold even on a low setting, that's why I started to run the over head fan. I am not to worried about getting the warm air into the kitchen because I am not even getting the den warm enough to "share the air" with the kitchen. I will deal with the Kitchen when I can get the den hotter.

I guess what I need to know is if my insert is warming up enough and why can't I get a sustained burn like the rest of you. The installer said that we would be sweating with this insert. Adding more wood every 1 1/2 hours is a pain and I can forget about getting an over night burn, I have to start a cold fire every AM in a cold room. I know its not the insert, I am rather certain its not the wood what else could it be?

 

[Farmer Sue]

At 3pm the glass temp went down to mid 500's normaly I would have started to add more wood but since I had a large bed of coals I decided to burn off some of the coals so I spread out the coals and opened up the air all the way and left it that way for a half hour. Then I loaded the box up again with two smaller splits and three 5-6" splits (16" long) the fire quickly lit and went up to 849* on the glass and 350* air. After a while I cut off the air and insted of stopping at 1 1/5" I closed it further to about 1/2". I still have rolling blue and orange flame. The glass temp is going down now to about 650* and 320* on the glass. It is 73* in the den and 63* in the kitchen and a balmy 39* outside. I will see how long it lasts with the air intake closed more.

 

[Farmer Sue]

Here are some pics of my install, maybe some one will see something wrong that will help me determine why I can't get a long hot burn. More pics on next post.

 

[Farmer Sue]

Does any one see anything wrong?

 

[laynes69]

Too much draft?

 

[himbe]

I have the HI300 insert and am trying to get the secondary burn. We followed the instructions on the video's, the wood is dry at about 15-20, don't know the kind of wood. I get the temps up to 747 degrees on the glass and 278-327 degrees on the shelf just above the door, I am using an infrared thermometer, checked- its accurate. Are these temps high enough? The wood burns down fast, gone to coal in about 2 hours, but it is burning off the black creosote off the glass.

My insert is in an interior masonry wall , using a 32' or 33' SS liner. Not insulated. Any suggestions?

Sue, Check your baffles.

 

[Farmer Sue]

Laynes69, how would I know if I am gettiing to much draft. I realize that my chimney is rather on the long side, if I am getting to much draft what can I do about it?

Fireguymike- how do I check the Baffles? I can say that the bricks up top are pushed all the way to the back??

The guy who installed the insert came out to see if something was wrong with the system and he checked things over and said that every thing looked OK. I assume he checked the baffle. He also noted that after several months of burning we did not have any creosote buildup. I guess the fire was getting hot enough but I think it should get hotter then it does and last longer. He brought his own wood and lit a fire, he got it up to over 800* on the glass and said that was within par. So maybe the temps are high enough, I guess I need a longer burn time. Any thoughts?

 

[laynes69]

With a chimney that tall, theres no doubt about too much draft. I don't think theres anything you can do about the draft, other than control it at the insert. Have you tried almost closing or closing the primary once its going? Try closing it down a little sooner and see what it does.

 

[tutu_sue]

Sue, did you get the optional fan installed in the insert? Being that most of the firebox is inside the fireplace, that integral fan is really necessary to get the heat out of it. Regarding the firewood, you want to split a couple logs in half and then measure the moisture in the center. If you are over 20%, you won't get much heat out of that wood. Also without the lower block off plate, you may be losing a lot of warm air to heating up the tall chimney space.

 

[G-rott]

I too think you may have a draft issue, I did with 22' of chimney. There is an in line damper with an extension handle you can install between your insert and the liner. Also is there a air stop around the liner and the chimney chase? Like a blockoff plate or mineral fiber insulation? If not you are likely sending a lot of heat up the stack around the liner.

Once I have a bed of coals I can rake out and reload I just run with the air open for 5 min or so then damp it all the way down, I get good secondaries right a way due to the hot firebox. The less time I spend with the air open the longer my burn.

Garett

 

[nojo]

Chasing the illusive secondary burn can be a frustrating process. I find the big box stove guys get the ideal conditions, but in my small Jotul, it is difficult, and when I had my uninslated liner and less than perfectly dried wood last year, it seemed impossible. Rather than focussing on the illusive goal, I focused on getting clean burns at lower air rates (damped down).

I found that it was easier to get ideal low burns when the flue was fully heated up - when equilibrium was achieved between the liner temp and the masonary around it. That took a long time with my uninsulated liner, but is happening more often now.

Im getting good secondary burns on my little trailblazer with a 1+ cubic foot firebox.

The key is to have a good coal bed, not too much draft, good dry wood and to leave about 3 inches between the wood and the baffle plate. Get er hot and cut the air down.