New guy decides not to use insulated liner--then hears the voice of reason

[russb]

Will he regret it?

I have an old chimney flue I'm lining (interior chimney, but on an exterior wall) with 6" liner, 27' long. Everything I can see of it looks great, but it's brick and mortar, no liner of any type.

I'll be burning in a Kent Tile Fire. I haven't actually placed the order yet, but I'm almost certain I'll go with the uninsulated liner, for cost savings. My question, as in the thread tile, is will I regret it? And will I regret it for drafting reasons or safety reasons? Or will I regret it because I'll need to clean the chimney every two weeks?

I'm not the type that minds having to pull it out later and wrap it or pour vermiculite down later. I do mind the house burning down. I have yet to ask what my insurance company or building official thinks about it.

Have I left out pertinent information?

 

[CenterTree]

IMHO,,, the cost savings of not installing insulation is so negligible compared to the BENEFITS of spending a little more and just wrapping it.

Safer, warmer, cleaner (less creosote).

What's the price tag for SAFETY?

 

[begreen]

Insulation required for a non-tiled brick chimney. JDI

 

[Jags]

And at 27 ft tall, I would be doing everything possible to retain the heat in the liner.

 

[BrotherBart]

A six inch brick chimney? What was it used for? A boiler?

 

[mellow]

From personal experience I have a 25 ft exterior chimney, installed the 6" flex liner with no insulation and got smoke billowing out during reloads, pulled the liner and insulated it and it has been working great ever since. Just my 2cents to do it right the first time.

 

[russb]

Not that it's your responsibility at all, but I'm almost convinced. Thing is, I had a mason here the other day forming up the old wall thimble (if you can call it that, basically fixing the old terracotta pipe to the chimney), and he said I should just stick stove pipe through the hole (horizontally), and use the unlined chimney. Old-timer, and not a sweep, so I'm not figuring I'll follow his guidance. but, I do want to avoid overkill. That said, now you've all got me thinking more about it.

BrotherBart, the chimney's not 6", the liner I'm getting (to match my stove) is 6". I reckon there's plenty of space to fit an insulated liner down there; if I get insulated I'll be going with the pre-wrapped Insulflex.

 

[begreen]

We could say the same, but then we wouldn't sleep too well at night. You will when done properly. So will your insurance company like it when you tell them the liner was installed to UL 1777 standard.

 

[Jags]

With a plain brick chimney I don't think it is an option if you wish to stay to code.
A wise man on this site states "if you invite fire into your home, do it with the utmost caution". I tend to agree.

 

[Wormyone]

I had the same thoughts when I installed my stove. Listen to the other guys and insulate the liner like ended up doing

 

[bluedogz]

Not that it's your responsibility at all, but I'm almost convinced. Thing is, I had a mason here the other day forming up the old wall thimble (if you can call it that, basically fixing the old terracotta pipe to the chimney), and he said I should just stick stove pipe through the hole (horizontally), and use the unlined chimney. Old-timer, and not a sweep, so I'm not figuring I'll follow his guidance. but, I do want to avoid overkill. That said, now you've all got me thinking more about it.

BrotherBart, the chimney's not 6", the liner I'm getting (to match my stove) is 6". I reckon there's plenty of space to fit an insulated liner down there; if I get insulated I'll be going with the pre-wrapped Insulflex.

I had a more or less similar setup, and adding the insulation to my liner was not much money. The additional safety and draft was worth the few bucks.

 

[Ashhole]

You guys are scaring me. My insert was installed in 99 when the code was only 5 feet of stainless liner. It goes into a exterior brick chimney about 16'. I have never had a problem with draft or back puffing. A CSIA sweep inspected it at the beginning of the season and said it did not even need a cleaning. House was built in 96 if that makes a difference.

 

[2stoveshome]

The guy who installed my Jotul C450 told me that out of 250 stoves he installed last year, only 2 or 3 are installed with insulated liner. I told him that I prefer the insulated liner, he said half of the insulation will be gone anyway after he push the liner down from the roof. He said he will use the insulated liner if there is no tiles inside the chimney. He does spend time made the block off plate and he said the plate is far more important than insulating the liner. I am the one paying the liner but not sure why he does not want to use the insulated liner. The installation is done and I guess I will not pull the liner out and switch to an insulated one. After reading so many posts here....I guess I regret that I did not insist to have the insulated liner installed.

 

[BrotherBart]

The guy who installed my Jotul C450 told me that out of 250 stoves he installed last year,

The Guinness Book of World Records is looking for this guy.

 

[KindredSpiritzz]

personally i dont see an insulated liner making much of a difference long as you have the top blocked off to trap the heat in the chimney.

 

[BrotherBart]

Had I had the space for insulating the two liners in this joint I would have done it with no hesitation. Do it and for a few bucks you don't ever have to wonder how it would have been. For twenty years.

 

[fossil]

personally i dont see an insulated liner making much of a difference long as you have the top blocked off to trap the heat in the chimney.

Well , then there's all that pesky heat loss out the side of the chimney structure.

 

[BrotherBart]

Dang it. Somebody does that to me every season. Had to take the IR thermo out and hit the back of the brick pile chimney with the uninsulated liner. And the bricks on the front of the house. Same temp with the 30 rolling with the night burn.

 

[russb]

personally i dont see an insulated liner making much of a difference long as you have the top blocked off to trap the heat in the chimney.

You're just talking about performance though, right? Not safety?

 

[branchburner]

An unlined brick chimney, no ceramic tile? Either go by the book to code, for insurance/inspection/safety reasons, and get an insulated liner... OR... be cheap but safer and more efficiency-conscious and insulate w/ dirt-cheap perlite/vermiculite for an additional cost that is only a fraction of the liner cost. Why wait? To what end? That is management by crisis, which will always be the mode that bureaucracies operate within, but that you can easily rise above.

BTW, "old-timers" are a leading cause of chimney fires, pollution, poor efficiency, and perpetrators of all-around refusal to acknowledge that when the known facts and available technology change, the way you do things should change as well, even if very slightly and at no significant additional expense.

 

[KindredSpiritzz]

Russ, creosote build up was what i had in mind. Safety wise as long as you dont have holes in your chimney or missing brick i dont see how an uninsulated liner gets hot enough to get a brick hot enough to get any wood around it to combust. Least in mine i dont see any chance of that happening. I bet you could stick a brick on top of a board, put a blow torch on that brick and it'd never get hot enough to make that wood burn. And what difference does it make if you have heat loss out the sides of the chimney structure, its wasted heat thats going up the chimney anyways.
If anything run a clay or ceramic liner down for the SS one to go thru for more peace of mind.
I just don't get the whole insulated liner thing, but thats just me.

 

[branchburner]

i dont see how an uninsulated liner gets hot enough to get a brick hot enough to get any wood around it to combust.
.
I just don't get the whole insulated liner thing, but thats just me.

Code? Insurance? Liability?

THAT is reality. It is easy to be factually "safe" without meeting established standards. Not so easy to pay the bill on the off-chance of adverse events occurring that will be pounced upon by lawyers, insurers, bureaucrats and other assorted opportunistic leaches. They suck, but why not just insure against the insurers for a few bucks more?

 

[Makers Mark]

I put in new EPA insert over month ago. Went from slam install to by the book for new inserts. I wanted insert to do the best it could do. Warmer the flue liner the better the draft and less creosote buildup. Mine is working perfect. These guys know what they are talking about.

 

[russb]

Well, the advice in this thread got to me. Went with the Insulflex liner from Magnaflex. It was really a mix of all you in here and all the help that theheatelement (forum member here) gave me. I obviously haven't yet received my liner since I just ordered the pre-insulated 30' kit (6") , but I'm already impressed. We exchanged 22 emails, and in the end, I'm getting a good price on what I'm sure will be a great liner. I think their pre-wrapped is better priced than some of the other popular liner seller's kits that include the insulation wrap.

http://www.ebay.com/usr/chimneysolutions.hearth

 

[jdp1152]

Will he regret it?

I have an old chimney flue I'm lining (interior chimney, but on an exterior wall) with 6" liner, 27' long. Everything I can see of it looks great, but it's brick and mortar, no liner of any type.

I'll be burning in a Kent Tile Fire. I haven't actually placed the order yet, but I'm almost certain I'll go with the uninsulated liner, for cost savings. My question, as in the thread tile, is will I regret it? And will I regret it for drafting reasons or safety reasons? Or will I regret it because I'll need to clean the chimney every two weeks?

I'm not the type that minds having to pull it out later and wrap it or pour vermiculite down later. I do mind the house burning down. I have yet to ask what my insurance company or building official thinks about it.

Have I left out pertinent information?

Interior chimney ( meaning not on exterior wall) is pretty pointless IMO. I have an insert in one and the annual cleaning is essentially dusting the thing. I did have the liner on my chimney that runs on an exterior wall insulated after doing some research, but of the 20 or so stove shops/installers I spoke with on the matter, none felt it was important if you burned truly seasoned wood and didn't smolder your fires. I chose to err on the side of caution and pay the extra hundred and fifty bucks to have it insulated.