New house - Creosote dripping - Help

[laynes69]

I'm willing to bet condensation. The first year we had our new furnace, the chimney was 32' tall and the liner was oversized. Everyday I was removing a gallon and a half of water from the cleanout of the chimney. If I would forget, it would leak out of the cleanout and into the house. After putting in a 5.5" liner our problem dissapeared. It's suprising how much liquid can condense in such short amount of time.

 

[lazeedan]

I just wanted to say good luck getting that all fixed. I hope you can get the responsible parties to pay up. I wanted to see how this turns out.

 

[Hogwildz]

I concur. A big door on a stove needs a bigger flue generally.

That comment makes no GD sense.
There are many sized stoves with many sized doors, but mainly run on 6 or 8 inch flues.
Most stoves are burnt with the door closed, so door size means nothing in factoring draft.

 

[Hogwildz]

I'm willing to bet condensation. The first year we had our new furnace, the chimney was 32' tall and the liner was oversized. Everyday I was removing a gallon and a half of water from the cleanout of the chimney. If I would forget, it would leak out of the cleanout and into the house. After putting in a 5.5" liner our problem dissapeared. It's suprising how much liquid can condense in such short amount of time.

Great post.
First hand account of smaller sizing pulling a stronger draft.

 

[bluedogz]

That comment makes no GD sense.

Go on, Hogz... tell us how ya really feel....

 

[Hogwildz]

No sense in it.
Too many know it alls giving their input when maybe they shouldn't.
No time for that, going for a ride, F it.

 

[HotCoals]

That comment makes no GD sense.
There are many sized stoves with many sized doors, but mainly run on 6 or 8 inch flues.
Most stoves are burnt with the door closed, so door size means nothing in factoring draft.

It makes sense that a bigger flue makes it so less (hopefully none)smoke will come into the room with the door open.
You should seek help .

 

[bholler]

I agree that flue size has nothing to do with door size but smaller pipe does not mean more draft either if you have good draft it will increase the velocity but draft on a draft meter will not change. And if you have bad draft it wont matter if the flue is big or small you will still have bad draft.

 

[bholler]

Too many know it alls giving their input when maybe they shouldn't.

the same could be said about you at times

 

[BrotherBart]

OK. Let's leave it there. Wanna talk to each other and not the OP, use the PM/Conversation system.

 

[blades]

To the op, I have seen this type of problem on new installations of masonry flues many times over the years. It is a moisture problem of the new construction, in most cases requiring additional sealing of the external portion of the chimney due to moisture penetration of the brick and mortar. This is in-addition to the incorrect install of the internal flue portion. The liner will resolve most of this, but not all, you still need to have the mortar/bricks( the portion exposed to the elements) externally sealed, several products available simple spray on application. Your builder should be held accountable for this. Note this same problem at times shows up on older construction as well.
Also that portion of the ceiling material that is stained will need replacement. The hard surfaces may or may not be cleanable, again this would be a builder responsibility imho.

 

[TradEddie]

OP, do you have the stove installation manual? The manual should state the required liner/flue size, and simplify your dealings with the installer if he didn't follow the requirements.
If you don't have it, most are available online.
Also, from personal experience, take a good read of that manual, people in UK/Ireland are not familiar with burning wood in stoves, and try to run them like fireplaces, which is far from the best way. Lots of good advice here about proper burning practices.

TE

 

[Woodman37]

Some of that looks like water marks almost. I would check around the chimney for leaks and definitely not use that stove any more not worth the risk of burning down your home.

 

[mcmurray]

OP, do you have the stove installation manual? The manual should state the required liner/flue size, and simplify your dealings with the installer if he didn't follow the requirements.
If you don't have it, most are available online.
Also, from personal experience, take a good read of that manual, people in UK/Ireland are not familiar with burning wood in stoves, and try to run them like fireplaces, which is far from the best way. Lots of good advice here about proper burning practices.

TE

Small update.


I went back to the stove supplier/installer yesterday. I got the attached sheet from the inside the same model in the showroom. He told me this is all that came in it. I'm guessing it's a Chinese stove. I've Googled all the numbers on the sheet as well as the the number I found on the stove but can't find any info on it. So I'm unable to find out what flue size the manufacturer recommends.

The guy showed me the adaptor he has used. It looks like this: (not the exact same, and not from this site, but visually looks similar) (broken link removed to http://www.ngbell.com/products/Schiedel-Rite%252dVent-Flue-Adaptor-5%22--%252d-8%22-Vitreous-Enamel-to-Clay.html)

I asked why we hadn't been recommended a flexible steel liner when we spoke to him at the start, before the stove was fitted. He said that at least 50% of his customers didn't use one. Also stated that 95% of his customers that don't have a liner don't have the problem I'm having.

He's adamant that I burned wet fuel and that all this moisture is from that. Insists that I have tar in the chimney and it will need broken down (by lighting more creosote type logs).

I did my best to maintain a civil conversation but I wasn't getting anywhere with him. I told him I was having someone else inspect his work and that I would update him after that, then I left.

Hopefully I'll have more info on the cost of the follow up work from a few companies this week.


Ryan

 

[bluedogz]

The guy showed me the adaptor he has used. It looks like this: (not the exact same, and not from this site, but visually looks similar) (broken link removed to http://www.ngbell.com/products/Schiedel-Rite%252dVent-Flue-Adaptor-5%22--%252d-8%22-Vitreous-Enamel-to-Clay.html)

I asked why we hadn't been recommended a flexible steel liner when we spoke to him at the start, before the stove was fitted. He said that at least 50% of his customers didn't use one. Also stated that 95% of his customers that don't have a liner don't have the problem I'm having.

He's adamant that I burned wet fuel and that all this moisture is from that. Insists that I have tar in the chimney and it will need broken down (by lighting more creosote type logs).

Despite differences between building codes between nations, I have no doubt there are clear building codes in N. Ireland that will rule here. So the only question this builder needs to answer is, "Did you follow the law or not?" That might simplify the discussion.

 

[mcmurray]

Despite differences between building codes between nations, I have no doubt there are clear building codes in N. Ireland that will rule here. So the only question this builder needs to answer is, "Did you follow the law or not?" That might simplify the discussion.

Here is a link to building regulations for NI: http://www.thestoveyard.com/files/building-reg-ni.pdf

On page 38, section 3.4 it states:
"A flue pipe should have the same diameter or equivalent cross-sectional area as that of the appliance flue outlet and should be not smaller than the size recommended by the appliance manufacturer."

Would this be grounds to challenge the installation?

 

[bluedogz]

Here is a link to building regulations for NI: http://www.thestoveyard.com/files/building-reg-ni.pdf

On page 38, section 3.4 it states:
"A flue pipe should have the same diameter or equivalent cross-sectional area as that of the appliance flue outlet and should be not smaller than the size recommended by the appliance manufacturer."

Would this be grounds to challenge the installation?

In MY OPINION (and mine alone), I'd say yes. It is the installer's responsibility to document compliance with such rules, which here in the US would take the form of the stove manual.

Also, in your link, p. 33, s.2.46:
A flue should be checked at completion to ensure that it is free from obstructions, satisfactorily gas-tight and constructed with materials and components of sizes that suit the intended application.

So your builder has some splainin' to do.

 

[Grisu]

Your stove looks like this one: (broken link removed to http://www.mullendomestic.com/Tully-Carron-Kinmore-7kw-Multi-Fuel-Stove-Kinmore-arizona-denver)

Maybe you can go through them to find a manual. An installation without one is incomplete anyway, IMHO.

 

[mcmurray]

Your stove looks like this one: (broken link removed to http://www.mullendomestic.com/Tully-Carron-Kinmore-7kw-Multi-Fuel-Stove-Kinmore-arizona-denver)

Maybe you can go through them to find a manual. An installation without one is incomplete anyway, IMHO.

Brilliant, thanks. I've just spent the past 30 minutes searching Alibaba.com for something that looks like ours. This should give me something to work from.


At this stage I know what the issue is, but what I'm ultimately trying to find out, is if the builder should be footing the bill for the flue liner installation. It may be time to speak to our solicitor to get a legal input.

 

[HotCoals]

Well in your situation I doubt that you have to have a liner. Unless it is code for your area. I mean yours is a new installation with with clay tile right?

 

[mcmurray]

Well in your situation I doubt that you have to have a liner. I mean yours is a new installation with with clay tile right?

Yes, new build with 8" clay tile.

 

[Hogwildz]

If he used a 5" to 8" adapter, that is a fairly wide spread of difference in volume change, and would not float in my house.
If that adapter is not completely tight around the clue tile, again, that would be a no go with me.
If the adapter only meets up the the tile, and the four corners of the tile overhang outside the round adapter, my bet would be there is your problem with the crap running down outside.
Is the clay tile round, square, rectangular?

Who supplied the stove? They know nothing about the stove they sold you? Very sad if a vendor don't know crap about what they are selling, and also says a lot, or actually very little about the vendor.
Even if it was from burning wet wood, that creo should run down into the stove, not all around the outside, as due to a poor direct connect install.
What is the size of the outlet of the stove?

And I stick by my opinion, that a larger flue (oversized)has much more of a chance of lazy draft, then the proper size or even slightly smaller flue. Yes, larger may allow more volume, but the proper size or smaller will have more velocity. Think of a vacuum, what happens when you put a smaller diameter pipe on it..... is sucks harder. Same as car exhaust. I remember when huge size/diameter pipes were popular, but also caused issues due to lack of pressure.

Based on the limited info available, it appears with the properly sized liner from stove outlet to top, and properly installed and terminated, your issue may be solved.
Going from 5" or 6" to 8" is a problem from the start.

Here is what they should have installed from the start.
(broken link removed to http://www.ngbell.com/products/Schiedel-Rite%252dVent-Tecnoflex-Flexible-Flue-Liner-150mm-9-Metre-Roll.html)
Or they could have saved the cost of the chimney & clay liner and done a chase with class A.

 

[Mt Bob]

Have to agree with hog,as I had that happen years ago back in MD.6 to 8 stove pipe,small stove,even had water in stove after cool down.Changed pipe to all 6" and problem went away.

 

[bholler]

Don't get me wrong i absolutely agree that a properly sized flue will work much better. Over sized will cool quicker and have more condensation for sure. But draft is a pressure measurement caused my the temperature difference between the inside and the outside. Changing flue size will not change that pressure. It will do many other things that when sized properly are very beneficial. Also when it comes to condensation insulation is as important if not more so that a properly sized flue

 

[ihookem]

As a carpenter that patches lots of drywall, it looks like water damage. I could easily be wrong cause it happened before though. A few posts back said if it is a flue that came apart it may be condensating with the cold air mixing with hot chimney smoke. The stained water will drip down the chimny , I assume and come through right were the plaster is stained.