New tax credits for 2021

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71montess

New Member
Mar 27, 2021
40
Base camp
A little background on me, not a certified stove installer, I’m a master plumber in Massachusetts( highly up our buts with regulations) and always follow the installation instructions. I’ve run metalvent and all fuel flues in my 30+ years in plumbing. I’m building my own house, my third, and will be installing and building the alcove for a Blaze King wood stove. I’m totaling up a bit more than $7000.00 before labor for the pipe, fittings and stove . Will be looking at the 26% tax credit. My question is, as labor can be included, can I charge , and put it into the total , My Labor ?
 
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BKVP

Minister of Fire
A little background on me, not a certified stove installer, I’m a master plumber in Massachusetts( highly up our buts with regulations) and always follow the installation instructions. I’ve run metalvent and all fuel flues in my 30+ years in plumbing. I’m building my own house, my third, and will be installing and building the alcove for a Blaze King wood stove. I’m totaling up a bit more than $7000.00 before labor for the pipe, fittings and stove . Will be looking at the 26% tax credit. My question is, as labor can be included, can I charge , and put it into the total , My Labor ?
This came up previously in 2008. The IRS ruled that self performed installs do not allow for labor credit. Talk with your accountant if you need to.
 
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John Ackerly

Burning Hunk
I noticed the vendor for my cookstove uploaded a document certifying that my wood burning appliance is eligible for the tax credit. My Morso 2b Classic is certified at 83% efficient at nominal output. Does it matter when the appliances were installed? The Morso was December 2018 and the cookstove was November 2019. I didn't know about the previous $300 credit.
The efficiency has to be measured using HHV, which is how its done on the EPA list. Many manufacturers, and all European ones, use LHV, which makes them appear to be more efficient. So that Morso at 83% should not be relied on. Check it against the EPA list.
 

BKVP

Minister of Fire
I noticed the vendor for my cookstove uploaded a document certifying that my wood burning appliance is eligible for the tax credit. My Morso 2b Classic is certified at 83% efficient at nominal output. Does it matter when the appliances were installed? The Morso was December 2018 and the cookstove was November 2019. I didn't know about the previous $300 credit.

Spacebus...The 25C Tax Credit may or may not apply to your 2019 and 2018 purchases. The newer tax credit, 25D, went into effect on January 1, 2021. Purchases/completed installs for 25D began 01/01/2021 and end 12/31/2023. (2023 seeing a reduction in percentage)

You need to know the HHV value of efficiency for your prior two units. Contact the manufacturer. Then, you can look at the EPA list to verify the efficiencies. You should also download or obtain a certificate of compliance from the manufacturer for your tax records. Assuming you have already filed tax years 2018 and 2019, you would need to file amended returns. It may or may not be worth the effort for the $300 credit that may or may not apply to your 2 prior purchases.

Always defer to your CPA or accountant.

BKVP
 

SpaceBus

Minister of Fire
Nov 18, 2018
6,147
Downeast Maine
Spacebus...The 25C Tax Credit may or may not apply to your 2019 and 2018 purchases. The newer tax credit, 25D, went into effect on January 1, 2021. Purchases/completed installs for 25D began 01/01/2021 and end 12/31/2023. (2023 seeing a reduction in percentage)

You need to know the HHV value of efficiency for your prior two units. Contact the manufacturer. Then, you can look at the EPA list to verify the efficiencies. You should also download or obtain a certificate of compliance from the manufacturer for your tax records. Assuming you have already filed tax years 2018 and 2019, you would need to file amended returns. It may or may not be worth the effort for the $300 credit that may or may not apply to your 2 prior purchases.

Always defer to your CPA or accountant.

BKVP
Sounds like it isn't worth the headache, thanks for answering my questions.
 
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cincyguy72

New Member
Feb 4, 2021
6
Cincinnati
The EPA list is difficult to sort through, is it possible for some industrious member of this forum to keep a list of freestanding/inserts that qualify for the 2021 tax credit?

For my situation, I am quickly finding it is more expensive to pursue the tax credit for qualifying inserts, than it is to just buy a nice insert 1-2% below the HHV threshold, where many additional manufacturers are then included. This is with even including liner costs that would apply to the tax credit.
But, I could be wrong, as the list is hard to get info out of.
 

BCC_Burner

Feeling the Heat
Sep 10, 2013
451
Uptown Marble, CO

BKVP

Minister of Fire
At the very bottom of the EPA online list (lower left) it allows to Export the database as a Excel Document.

REMEMBER THE LIST IS A LIVING DOCUMENT. IT CAN BE UPDATED AT ANYTIME. EPA IS VERY BACKLOGGED ON REVIEWING TEST REPORTS, SO NEW CERTIFICATIONS WILL BE SLOW COMING.
 

BCC_Burner

Feeling the Heat
Sep 10, 2013
451
Uptown Marble, CO
Indeed. I'm still crossing my fingers and toes that Pacific Energy can get the Alderlea T6 up to 75% efficiency, because it would be the perfect stove for the house I'm buying (last one didn't work out...). I would love a BK, but I don't have a dealer within 130 miles.
 

BKVP

Minister of Fire
Indeed. I'm still crossing my fingers and toes that Pacific Energy can get the Alderlea T6 up to 75% efficiency, because it would be the perfect stove for the house I'm buying (last one didn't work out...). I would love a BK, but I don't have a dealer within 130 miles.
Check for pm...
 

EbS-P

Minister of Fire
Jan 19, 2019
1,259
SE North Carolina
For my situation, I am quickly finding it is more expensive to pursue the tax credit for qualifying inserts, than it is to just buy a nice insert 1-2% below the HHV threshold, where many additional manufacturers are then included. This is with even including liner costs that would apply to the tax credit.

I don’t think you are wrong. It will mean you could step to a more expensive stove for less money. I am working through my 2020 taxes now and wondering how the extended child tax credit is going to figure into my 2021 taxes. Wish there was a 2021 estimation tool, I should probably should look for one. For many large families these tax changes are substantial.
Evan
 

BKVP

Minister of Fire
I don’t think you are wrong. It will mean you could step to a more expensive stove for less money. I am working through my 2020 taxes now and wondering how the extended child tax credit is going to figure into my 2021 taxes. Wish there was a 2021 estimation tool, I should probably should look for one. For many large families these tax changes are substantial.
Evan
You are correct!! I was in a showroom in Wyoming last week. The dealer dollarized everything for a consumer and by purchasing a 25D Tax qualifying unit, the potential benefit was more than $2,500.00

When you compare higher quality/tech units, the savings can be substantial. Unfortunately I was also present when a dealer got chewed out by a consumer to whom he had sold a non qualifying unit. It seems the dealer did tell him it did not qualify, but said it would apply to the liner, extended hearth work for clearances and labor. The consumer called the stove manufacturer (stand up company) and they told him none of it qualified because the model he chose did not meet the requirements.

I gathered up my stuff and exited!! Post haste!!
 
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EbS-P

Minister of Fire
Jan 19, 2019
1,259
SE North Carolina
I don’t think you are wrong. It will mean you could step to a more expensive stove for less money. I am working through my 2020 taxes now and wondering how the extended child tax credit is going to figure into my 2021 taxes. Wish there was a 2021 estimation tool, I should probably should look for one. For many large families these tax changes are substantial.
Evan
Just finished taxes and did the maths... the temporary 2021 child tax credit will increase by 1600$ for children 5 and under on 12/31/2021 and increase by 1000$ for every child aged 6-17.
The 25D stove credit is not refundable (I believe).
Evan
 

BKVP

Minister of Fire
Just finished taxes and did the maths... the temporary 2021 child tax credit will increase by 1600$ for children 5 and under on 12/31/2021 and increase by 1000$ for every child aged 6-17.
The 25D stove credit is not refundable (I believe).
Evan
Correct, that is my understanding. However, it can be carried-over according to the IRS.
 
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cincyguy72

New Member
Feb 4, 2021
6
Cincinnati
I found six manufacturers that make qualifying inserts: Buck, Kuma, Innovative Hearth, Hearthstone, Regency, BK. I will need to see a few of these in person, in order to determine if their higher after-rebate price is justified over a non-cat insert. My situation is a self install, so no labor costs. I can see if labor is part of your bill, it might make sense.
Who knows, this might lower non-cat stoves, which is what I prefer all things equal.
 

eshwars

New Member
May 22, 2021
19
seattle
Hi all, I was just about to pull the trigger on a Pacific Energy Summit LE insert and stumbled on this thread. I was a little alarmed to see several people saying that this unit doesn't qualify for the tax credit because it has HHV efficiency listed as 74% (1 point below the 75% threshold). But I did some more research on this online and came across the following certificate on PE's web site.

Certificate of Efficiency

The certificate language references LHV value as being above 75%. Which is correct? Does LHV have to exceed 75% or HHV? Has anyone been down this path and been able to determine this for sure?
 

BKVP

Minister of Fire
Hi all, I was just about to pull the trigger on a Pacific Energy Summit LE insert and stumbled on this thread. I was a little alarmed to see several people saying that this unit doesn't qualify for the tax credit because it has HHV efficiency listed as 74% (1 point below the 75% threshold). But I did some more research on this online and came across the following certificate on PE's web site.

Certificate of Efficiency

The certificate language references LHV value as being above 75%. Which is correct? Does LHV have to exceed 75% or HHV? Has anyone been down this path and been able to determine this for sure?
LHV is lower heating value. It is the efficiency mostly used in Europe and is the efficiency of the appliance on a dry load basis. In other words, the energy used to consume the moisture in the fuel load is not taken into consideration. If your fuel is 0% m.c., or you can recover that energy, it is applicable.

HHV is higher heating value. It more accurately reflects real world as 99%of wood burned has moisture.

In 2008, the original language proposed HHV as the metric, but fewer than 10 stoves would have qualified. So it was switched to LHV. Unfortunately, just about every stove qualified....irritating regulators/IRS.

In the interim, manufacturers had to work with the new NSPS, stoves were engineered to burn cleaner and efficiency numbers increased to the degree that more than 40% of the wood stoves now meet the 75% HHV requirement.

If you have concerns, contact the manufacturer and ask for a certificate of compliance for the 25D tax credit.
 
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eshwars

New Member
May 22, 2021
19
seattle
Thanks for your thoughtful response BKVP. That's very interesting! The link to Pacific Energy's Certificate of Efficiency (I put in my previous post) states that it's a certificate for compliance with 25C (you referenced 25D).

I've contacted their customer service. I'll report back what they say.
 

BKVP

Minister of Fire
Thanks for your thoughtful response BKVP. That's very interesting! The link to Pacific Energy's Certificate of Efficiency (I put in my previous post) states that it's a certificate for compliance with 25C (you referenced 25D).

I've contacted their customer service. I'll report back what they say.
25C expired 12/31/2020. It was limited to $300. 25D started 01/01/2021, 26% with no cap.
 
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BCC_Burner

Feeling the Heat
Sep 10, 2013
451
Uptown Marble, CO
Thanks for your thoughtful response BKVP. That's very interesting! The link to Pacific Energy's Certificate of Efficiency (I put in my previous post) states that it's a certificate for compliance with 25C (you referenced 25D).

I've contacted their customer service. I'll report back what they say.


The PE Summit/Alderlea does NOT qualify for the 25D tax credit. I was in a store shopping for one yesterday.

It strikes me as laziness that PE has yet to figure out how to wring an extra 1% efficiency out of that stove during the EPA test. Whatever it cost them to re-engineer and re-test the stove would be covered in no time by the increase in sales volume.

We still have a decent number of wood burning stoves in our area, and many people are removing old (EPA-certified but pre-2002ish) and replacing them. I've seen probably 15-18 stove replacements this year, and every single one has been a stove that qualified for the tax credit.

Stove manufacturers that aren't offering at least one qualifying model are only hurting themselves and their reputations, particularly around here, where the stove market is dominated by Jotul, PE and Hearthstone.
 

begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
89,794
South Puget Sound, WA
Yes, I am concerned that in 3-5 yrs there are going to be a lot of stoves running with dead cats. Then the HHV is worthless. It's already been shown that most people do not maintain their stoves well. These people are better off with a simpler stove.
 
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eshwars

New Member
May 22, 2021
19
seattle
Alright, I got the final word from the PE sales team confirming that none of their inserts currently qualify. Here's the message:
Hi Eshwar,

Thank you for your email to Pacific Energy Fireplaces.

That is correct, the insert does not qualify for the tax credit. Currently we do not have any units that qualify but we are working hard to meet the requirement.

Kindest regards,
Pacific Energy Online Support

I've responded pleading for them to find a way to bridge the 1% gap so that the Summit LE may qualify. Their email is: [email protected] I request others to email them and make the same request as well. Hopefully getting strong customer feedback will light a fire under them to get it done quickly! :)
 

BKVP

Minister of Fire
Alright, I got the final word from the PE sales team confirming that none of their inserts currently qualify. Here's the message:


I've responded pleading for them to find a way to bridge the 1% gap so that the Summit LE may qualify. Their email is: [email protected] I request others to email them and make the same request as well. Hopefully getting strong customer feedback will light a fire under them to get it done
Yes, I am concerned that in 3-5 yrs there are going to be a lot of stoves running with dead cats. Then the HHV is worthless. It's already been shown that most people do not maintain their stoves well. These people are better off with a simpler stove.
A proper installation including chimney configuration plays a huge role in the appliance efficiency. Many (most) stove change out programs insist on a professional NFI or WETT installation for safety reasons. The additional benefit is increase in efficiency.

Many of the eligible units do not have a combustor that you are concerned about. Anyway, proper maintenance plays a significant role in all stoves, regardless of technology. EPA mandated in the preamble of the 2015 NSPS that all wood stoves, regardless of technology, must have "like warranties."

Once EPA clears their backlog, more units will be unveiled to consumers.
 

begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
89,794
South Puget Sound, WA
This is not a warranty issue. The 1998 Oregon study showed that the average homeowner does not do a good job at maintaining their stoves regardless of regulations. The more complex stoves faired worse in the study.

Unfortunately, the HHV 75% or better non-cat list is not large. Most are small stoves with only a few around 2 cu ft and none larger. The Pleasant Hearth models listed appear to be non-existant. This leaves no choices for larger stoves due to the arbitrarily biased 75% threshold.