New to wood-burning, couple of questions

[Graelb]

Hi All,

I'm new to the forum and new to wood-burning stoves in general, so be gentle!

We are in the midst of a remodel, and decided to put in a woodstove. And since we're cheap, we ended up with a US Stove King 2016E(B) model. It's an EPA, non Cat type stove.

Interestingly enough, this stove doesn't have ANY airflow controls built in, so naturally... we installed a flue damper.

The stove has two holes on either side of the stove, on the underside, nearer to the front of the stove. and then it has a handful of smaller holes along the front of the stove just above the window. I THINK the underside holes are for primary intake, and the ones above the window are for secondary, but I could have that backward. Either way, none of these holes have any kind of control, so air is always wide open.

(Apparently the woman thinks I'm paranoid because) I bought a stovetop thermometer that sits on the top of the stove just in front of the outlet pipe, and I'm using a multimeter with a thermometer probe as a backup. Interestingly the multimeter will show ~450, where the stovetop thermometer shows ~650... so I'm assuming that the multimeter is correct, and using the magnetic stovetop thermometer for a basis of how the fire is doing (getting hotter, colder, etc) instead of for an actual temperature.

Onto the questions!

1) I have been playing with the damper to try to figure out the "Perfect burn," and it's a process for sure. I usually run wide open until I'm about ready for the real first load (as opposed to the smaller sticks and stuff I use to light it), then cut the damper down to about 50% and let her burn. Occasionally the temps kick up into 500 or so, but usually cruise right around 400 or just under judging by the multimeter, but since the multimeter reading 500 means the magnetic one is reading like... ~700, i get nervous and cut her back. Does this sound about right? Or should I just be getting a better thermometer like an IR one?

2) I can post pictures if you guys haven't seen this stove at all, but does anyone have any suggestions on how to modify the stove to get some control of the intake air ports?

3) As a rule of thumb, how hot is too hot if I'm standing around the stove? I've read all sorts of answers to this question, from simply stove temps, to how far from the glass your hand should be held before the heat from the stove burns your hand... lol. I want to know YOUR rule of thumb.


Glad to be a part of the community! Looking forward to your replies.

Thanks,
Graelb

 

[xman23]

Graelb , welcome to the forum.
I don't know your stove. There's is no primary air control. Are you sure a handle isn't missing? Kind of strange the new stove top thermometer and the thermo couple don't agree. I'm thinking the probe is not being heated properly or completely. Make sure your using both in the same location. I have 4 or 5 cheep stove top thermometer and they are all about the same. Pick up anther cheep one and confirm there about the same. So I would not run mine more than 650 degrees for any length of time. I don't need anything more than 500 peak.

 

[Graelb]

Graelb , welcome to the forum.
I don't know your stove. There's is no primary air control. Are you sure a handle isn't missing? Kind of strange the new stove top thermometer and the thermo couple don't agree. I'm thinking the probe is not being heated properly or completely. Make sure your using both in the same location. I have 4 or 5 cheep stove top thermometer and they are all about the same. Pick up anther cheep one and confirm there about the same. So I would not run mine more than 650 degrees for any length of time. I don't need anything more than 500 peak.

Pretty sure I'm not missing a handle, you can see the pics here:
More wood stove
Us stove king 2016 e(b)

 

[jatoxico]

Why there is no actual air control is very curious but seems to be so. The holes across the top of the door are to wash the glass and are usually primary. Holes on the bottom can be for secondary air or for a doghouse air or both. Not knowing your stove that's a guess but those are the three typical air sources and the holes over door are surely glass wash. You can use tinfoil or magnets to regulate them.

As far as temps first of course check the manual but most seem to run between 400-700 with occasional peaks above that. Cruising at 500 +- 100 is just fine. The rule is no glowing, anywhere. Doing that too often will wear out the unit quick.

 

[Attaboy]

I may be wrong here but on a online owner's manual for your model that I found it states the following:

BUILDING A FIRE

The top down method of fire building is recommended for this appliance. After making sure that the stove air intake controls are fully open (completely pull-out towards you), Place the largest pieces of wood on the bottom, laid in parallel and close together. Smaller pieces are placed in a second layer, crossways to the first. A third layer of still smaller pieces is laid crossways to the second, this time with some spaces between. Then a fourth layer of loose, small kindling and twisted newspaper sheets tops off the pile.

If the aforementioned is wrong I would find a method of blocking off some of the air holes on and off as per my needs with something such as easily removable magnets to remove or increase the air supply to the firebox.

I am using an internal probe thermometer inside my double wall flue, I by far prefer this to a stove top thermometer as it is more accurate,

With a normal wood load for my stove the flue thermometer will top out at between 550° to 600° for 20-30 minutes depending on the flavor of wood in the firebox at that time then slowly starts edging down for several hours. I have seen it for short periods way up past 700° several times.

 

[Graelb]

I may be wrong here but on a online owner's manual for your model that I found it states the following:

BUILDING A FIRE

The top down method of fire building is recommended for this appliance. After making sure that the stove air intake controls are fully open (completely pull-out towards you), Place the largest pieces of wood on the bottom, laid in parallel and close together. Smaller pieces are placed in a second layer, crossways to the first. A third layer of still smaller pieces is laid crossways to the second, this time with some spaces between. Then a fourth layer of loose, small kindling and twisted newspaper sheets tops off the pile.

If the aforementioned is wrong I would find a method of blocking off some of the air holes on and off as per my needs with something such as easily removable magnets to remove or increase the air supply to the firebox.

I am using an internal probe thermometer inside my double wall flue, I by far prefer this to a stove top thermometer as it is more accurate,

With a normal wood load for my stove the flue thermometer will top out at between 550° to 600° for 20-30 minutes depending on the flavor of wood in the firebox at that time then slowly starts edging down for several hours. I have seen it for short periods way up past 700° several times.


View attachment 193861

The top down method definitely works better in this stove than a teepee sort of start. Unless the wood is bone dry and I have plenty of kindling.

I think their manuals are piecemealed from multiple stoves, so opening the intake part has to be one of those implied "if you have one" things.

How hard was it to install the double wall temp gauge? Do you have a link to the one you bought, and would you recommend it?

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[Graelb]

Why there is no actual air control is very curious but seems to be so. The holes across the top of the door are to wash the glass and are usually primary. Holes on the bottom can be for secondary air or for a doghouse air or both. Not knowing your stove that's a guess but those are the three typical air sources and the holes over door are surely glass wash. You can use tinfoil or magnets to regulate them.

As far as temps first of course check the manual but most seem to run between 400-700 with occasional peaks above that. Cruising at 500 +- 100 is just fine. The rule is no glowing, anywhere. Doing that too often will wear out the unit quick.

Tinfoil as a temporary solution is a great idea, but the suggestion for magnets is genius. Magnets won't burn up on the stove? I'm sure I can find a single magnet that stretches across all of the intake holes, and just use a high temp epoxy to attach some rods to move it in use.

I'm not familiar with the doghouse intake concept. Primary is the main air for the stove, secondary is for the tube across the top with holes in it that generally burns the gases, what's the doghouse? (Except for what I'm in when I get up to check the stove every fifteen minutes while we're watching TV in the bedroom)

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[Attaboy]

The top down method definitely works better in this stove than a teepee sort of start. Unless the wood is bone dry and I have plenty of kindling.

I think their manuals are piecemealed from multiple stoves, so opening the intake part has to be one of those implied "if you have one" things.

How hard was it to install the double wall temp gauge? Do you have a link to the one you bought, and would you recommend it?

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

Out of the 3 or 4 flue probe thermometers I purchased the Condar Fluegard is the absolute best of them all, it will last a lifetime and its made in North Carolina.

Very very simple to install, follow the instructions included with the thermometer its easy peasy, you drill a hole straight in through the double wall or single wall flue pipe, was it a 1/8'' or 3/16'' diameter hole, I forget now, either way its a very small hole and real simple to install.


http://www.condar.com/Probe_Thermometers.html
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[moresnow]

I'm not familiar with the doghouse intake concept. Primary is the main air for the stove, secondary is for the tube across the top with holes in it that generally burns the gases, what's the doghouse? (Except for what I'm in when I get up to check the stove every fifteen minutes while we're watching TV in the bedroom)

Good funny! Wearing a path to the stove and back. When you get the stove tuned in you will be much happier. So will the wife. Careful with the magnets. On my previous stove I tried using them. They fell off when the stove got good and hot. Noooooooo good......

 

[Blaine]

For an entertaining read, check out the 2016EB on the Home Depot website. This is a 275# stove with a 1.7 cu.ft. firebox, and is supposed to be able to produce 89,000 BTU to heat 2,000 sq. ft. spaces.

Particularly note the claims of the "USStoveExpert" that EPA guidelines no longer allow any form of air control on EPA certified stoves.

I do not believe that it should even be legal to market this stove for use in a inhabited dwelling.

 

[firefighterjake]

Very odd . . . one would think a stove set up to be a secondary burner would have an air control.

Incidentally all I see in the pics are a couple of big, black rectangles . . . I have titled them "Unlit stove at Night."

 

[Attaboy]

's

For an entertaining read, check out the 2016EB on the Home Depot website. This is a 275# stove with a 1.7 cu.ft. firebox, and is supposed to be able to produce 89,000 BTU to heat 2,000 sq. ft. spaces.

Particularly note the claims of the "USStoveExpert" that EPA guidelines no longer allow any form of air control on EPA certified stoves.

I do not believe that it should even be legal to market this stove for use in a inhabited dwelling.

This is a cut and paste copy of U.S Stove's comment on Home Depot's web site:

Response from By US Stove Expert, November 21, 2016 By US Stove Expert, November 21, 2016
Due to EPA regulations, you will not be able to damper any EPA certified wood stove any longer. All wood stoves must follow these guidelines and standards. Any brand of wood stove will now not be able to be dampered down or have a damper in the flue. We do apologize for this issue you are having, but this will be standard on all wood stoves manufactured.


This is the first I hear of such a EPA regulation, do any of our regulars '' industry tech's '' know of this regulation, for me this is a very dangerous guideline and scenario, if true I foresee enormous problems and dangers to come because of it and predict heaps of work for fire departments and insurance companies.

I really doubt this is the case, however should it be stove companies will be selling an incredible number of current type stoves in 2019 before the new EPA standards take effect in May 2020.

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[Attaboy]

Incidentally all I see in the pics are a couple of big, black rectangles . . . I have titled them "Unlit stove at Night."

DITTO here.

.

 

[Wickets]

This is the first I hear of such a EPA regulation, do any of our regulars '' industry tech's '' know of this regulation,

Would you mind starting a new thread about this so that those that arent following this one see it? Thank you. As an aside, if this is true, wouldnt used / NOS stoves become valuable?

 

[jatoxico]

Magnets won't burn up on the stove?

If you're covering inlets from the bottom of the stove those areas should be fairly cool. Some have used rare earth magnets I think on hot spots but not too sure about that.

I'm not familiar with the doghouse intake concept.

Many of our stoves have an air inlet centered at the bottom of the door opening to feed the base of the fire. They're often covered over with a little "house" to prevent ash from clogging it up. Don't know if you have that.

As I said that the air in you're stove can't be regulated is odd but seems to be how it is. It must have been the only way they could pass the EPA test. I wonder if older versions of your stove had regulation and if you could buy the old parts and install.

 

[Graelb]

That's a good thought jatoxico, I'll see if they have older versions. I'm under the impression this is a new stove design, so I might be hosed.

Interesting on the magnets, i'll have to look into that. Thank you!

 

[Attaboy]

Graelb, can you please post a few photos of your stove including these funky fangled new air inlets !

With photos perhaps we can invent some other new solution for this.

.

 

[Graelb]

Graelb, can you please post a few photos of your stove including these funky fangled new air inlets !

With photos perhaps we can invent some other new solution for this.

.

Sure thing!

 

[Attaboy]

This is the first time I see a stove with this type of arrangement, please take no offense but this is really a strange design, by the way there are several companies presently that already have stoves that will meet or exceed the new minimal EPA regulations that become effective only in May 2020 and these have traditional air controls like we have always had in the past which IMHO is absolutely required to control comfort level and for safety, we have been told for the last 3 decades now that we are not to use a flue damper with a EPA certified stove however for this one here it is absolutely a must to have a flue damper in order to control the output to some extent .

I am curious as to why there are so many ashes on the ash lip ?

Is this stove not designed for east-west loading instead of north-south loading ?

The front air inlets can fairly easily be fitted with a homemade slider type air inlet, not having sufficient info on this stove the bottom/side air inlets can have a steel plug with a slider that fits in there or a fabricated angled steel wedge that would be pushed in or out that reduces air to the burn area, this will take a bit of trial and error. This is a lot of trouble when a traditional air control makes things so simple.

Do not want to be negative or derogatory but if this stove could be returned for another with traditional air controls would you be inclined to do so ?

I know nothing of this stove nor this type of stove but personally it scares me because of lack of control in case of an emergency.


.

 

[Graelb]

This is the first time I see a stove with this type of arrangement, please take no offense but this is really a strange design, by the way there are several companies presently that already have stoves that will meet or exceed the new minimal EPA regulations that become effective only in May 2020 and these have traditional air controls like we have always had in the past which IMHO is absolutely required to control comfort level and for safety, we have been told for the last 3 decades now that we are not to use a flue damper with a EPA certified stove however for this one here it is absolutely a must to have a flue damper in order to control the output to some extent .

I am curious as to why there are so many ashes on the ash lip ?

Is this stove not designed for east-west loading instead of north-south loading ?

The front air inlets (most likely primary inlets) can fairly easily be fitted with a homemade slider type air inlet, not having sufficient info on this stove the side air inlets ( secondary burn) can quite possibly be left that way or worst case scenario a steel plug that fits in there that reduces air to the secondary burn area, this will take a bit of trial and error on the side air inlets.

Do not want to be negative or derogatory but if this stove could be returned for another with traditional air controls would you be inclined to do so ?

I know nothing of this stove nor this type of stove but personally it scares me because of lack of control in a case of an emergency.


.

No offense taken!

I might be willing to replace it with a different stove, but we were going fairly cheap, and ended up only paying ~$500 for the stove including shipping. Originally it was $450+$150 for shipping, but the original stove was damaged in shipping, and we got a $100 credit.

The ash is just because I've been lazy and haven't cleaned it. I'm sure I went to load it, and a log fell and knocked a bunch of ash into the pan. =P

I'm pretty confident that the reason for not using a flue damper is mostly for emissions, not so much for efficiency, but don't quote me on that... I've been able to control the burn for the most part using the damper, but if that thing gets really roaring, it's hard to knock it down, as the damper still allows some draft.

When you say a "Homemade slider type air inlet" what exactly are we talking about? I originally was considering getting a piece of spring steel, and bending the corners so it fit around the sides of the stove, which I could slide up or down to cover the inlet holes, but that would scratch up the side of the stove pretty good i'd imagine.

The stove is pretty much designed to burn East to west, I'll sometimes throw in a couple of pieces of wood north-south just to get a decent coal bed, is there danger in doing it this way?

 

[Attaboy]

When you say a "Homemade slider type air inlet" what exactly are we talking about? I originally was considering getting a piece of spring steel, and bending the corners so it fit around the sides of the stove, which I could slide up or down to cover the inlet holes, but that would scratch up the side of the stove pretty good i'd imagine.

Just making a very simple homemade slider to cover the holes, something similar to this to help you control the air entering the stove.

For safety sake get your hands on some Roxul mineral insulation (not fiberglass insulation) or ceramic batting should you have a chimney fire stuff the Roxul in to all the air inlets to choke the stove and close the flue damper that should snuff out the fire or at least greatly reduce it.

.

 

[tpenny67]

This is the first I hear of such a EPA regulation, do any of our regulars '' industry tech's '' know of this regulation, for me this is a very dangerous guideline and scenario, if true I foresee enormous problems and dangers to come because of it and predict heaps of work for fire departments and insurance companies.

I wonder if they're referring to the exemption for fireplaces. Basically, if the stove burns a minimum of 10lbs of wood an hour, it's considered a fireplace and emissions regulations don't apply. Thus, if they added an air control to slow the fire down, they'd need to meet EPA regulations.

 

[Attaboy]

I wonder if they're referring to the exemption for fireplaces. Basically, if the stove burns a minimum of 10lbs of wood an hour, it's considered a fireplace and emissions regulations don't apply. Thus, if they added an air control to slow the fire down, they'd need to meet EPA regulations.

According to U.S. Stoves own web site the stove in question is EPA certified.

http://www.usstove.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=59&product_id=1951

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[Graelb]

According to U.S. Stoves own web site the stove in question is EPA certified.

http://www.usstove.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=59&product_id=1951

.

It was interesting calling and talking to their customer service department; they were almost apologetic about the fact that there was no air control.

On another note, modulating with tinfoil does work to tone down the fire FAR faster than closing the damper. Working with a buddy who owns a machine shop to figure out a solution.

Also ordered the flue temp gauge! Thanks guys.



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[Attaboy]

On another note, modulating with tinfoil does work to tone down the fire FAR faster than closing the damper.

Be careful doing that, do it gradually, you would not want to crack welds on the stove.