Have you looked at crash test data? Truck based SUVs absolutely are not safer in a crashBullcrap it's our god given right to drive around in the biggest most wasteful monster we can while we sit idling in bumper to bumper traffic!!
We have a sizable suv and every weekend I'm playing Tetris trying to pack it. During the week though it has one occupant. Total waste of space BUT it's safer being in this SUV than it is being in a tiny car when against a truck. This it is a daily driver for wife and not just a weekend adventure vehicle.
If they force people to downsize their vehicles I would consider a smaller vehicle with a roof topper storage.
Norway on track to reach 100% EV sales in the next 2 years
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Lithium batteries absolutely have lots of negatives which is why there is so much time and money being put into developing alternatives.
Its really hard to know what the truth of the matter about EVs is.
I've owned 4 EVs for the last 9 years, I am aware of their limitations. Like driving a Gen 1 LEAF on a highway roadtrip in a snowstorm... and watching the range tick down amazingly fast. LOL.
The cost of batteries is hard to know (its a trade secret, so companies don't want to report their costs) but estimates can be made for different cases, and the prices have been falling exponentially.
Most technologies start out super expensive, and then get cheaper with time. Think HDTVs, that used to be thousands of dollar years ago, and now you can get a big HDTV for a few hundred $$ at Walmart. Considering inflation over the last 15 years, its even cheaper!
This is what engineers do, they figure out how to make things cheaper and cheaper in addition to better and better.
But this stops ofc when the price of the tech approaches the cost of the materials and energy used to make to tech.
The price of lithium batteries has fallen from like 50X the cost of materials to make them in 2012, to more like 5X the cost of materials in 2022. The price of materials have recently gone up with demand, but that is a blip. More mines will be opened, and the price will fall back to the price of mining and refining the materials (like the historical cost).
So (nearly) everyone in the car business expects EV batteries to get much cheaper than they are today. Probably like a half or a third as expensive as today. At that price, long range EVs will be cheaper to build (and thus buy) than ICE cars. And be more durable bc they have fewer moving parts.
IS that true today? Nope. The industry is changing because of a (widely accepted) prediction of the future that cheap EVs are coming, just a matter of time.
Can the prediction be wrong (and billions of $$ lost)? Sure, of course that can happen. But pretty much everyone (not Al Gore or Joe Biden... all the engineers at the actual car companies) that has looked at EV tech thinks that 'stupid cheap' EVs are coming. And when they do, few people will want to spend more money to get an ICE car that is also more expensive to operate and maintain.
So the car companies are switching, bc they can see that if they don't, they will be bankrupt in 5-10 years.
And yeah, mining the battery materials is much less damaging for the environment that the greater global warming damage of an ICE car. And the materials can be efficiently recycled at the end of life. That business doesn't exist yet... bc the EV batteries are still in service!
I've owned 4 EVs for the last 9 years, I am aware of their limitations. Like driving a Gen 1 LEAF on a highway roadtrip in a snowstorm... and watching the range tick down amazingly fast. LOL.
The cost of batteries is hard to know (its a trade secret, so companies don't want to report their costs) but estimates can be made for different cases, and the prices have been falling exponentially.
Most technologies start out super expensive, and then get cheaper with time. Think HDTVs, that used to be thousands of dollar years ago, and now you can get a big HDTV for a few hundred $$ at Walmart. Considering inflation over the last 15 years, its even cheaper!
This is what engineers do, they figure out how to make things cheaper and cheaper in addition to better and better.
But this stops ofc when the price of the tech approaches the cost of the materials and energy used to make to tech.
The price of lithium batteries has fallen from like 50X the cost of materials to make them in 2012, to more like 5X the cost of materials in 2022. The price of materials have recently gone up with demand, but that is a blip. More mines will be opened, and the price will fall back to the price of mining and refining the materials (like the historical cost).
So (nearly) everyone in the car business expects EV batteries to get much cheaper than they are today. Probably like a half or a third as expensive as today. At that price, long range EVs will be cheaper to build (and thus buy) than ICE cars. And be more durable bc they have fewer moving parts.
IS that true today? Nope. The industry is changing because of a (widely accepted) prediction of the future that cheap EVs are coming, just a matter of time.
Can the prediction be wrong (and billions of $$ lost)? Sure, of course that can happen. But pretty much everyone (not Al Gore or Joe Biden... all the engineers at the actual car companies) that has looked at EV tech thinks that 'stupid cheap' EVs are coming. And when they do, few people will want to spend more money to get an ICE car that is also more expensive to operate and maintain.
So the car companies are switching, bc they can see that if they don't, they will be bankrupt in 5-10 years.
And yeah, mining the battery materials is much less damaging for the environment that the greater global warming damage of an ICE car. And the materials can be efficiently recycled at the end of life. That business doesn't exist yet... bc the EV batteries are still in service!
TWilk117
Feeling the Heat
While I understand your premise, a $500 TV and a $2000 TV have a very significant difference in performance.
Same applies to lithium batteries, there's cheap ones and expensive ones, and usually the performance and longevity increases with price. GM learned a pretty hard lesson on battery quality.
Hydrogen is interesting but has lots of issues as well. More than electric honestly. Would you like your favorite hunting spot to turn into an oil rig or a refinery? Or be contaminated by a pipeline leak etc etc etc. You can't just ignore all the issues with gasoline but point out the ones with EVs
Jan Pijpelink
Minister of Fire
Hydrogen has the future. The first semi's are already on the road fueled by Hydrogen. Oil companies are constructing Hydrogen plants all over the place. In my industry, we use Hydrogen as a carrier gas in instruments (gas chromatographs). People who tell me they will use Nitrogen or Helium because Hydrogen is dangerous, I respond to like: it is not, people who misuse Hydrogen make it dangerous.
Yes but that $500 TV is far better than a $2000 TV from even 5 years ago
TWilk117
Feeling the Heat
Trust me I know there are inherent problems with fossil fuels. I called the fire department once because someone put an old oil tank down creek in the water from my house and there was a sheen all over the water.
I’m only suggesting that perhaps it’s not as bad as they are making it out to be, and stand to profit largely by doing so.
John C Dvorak has driven a hydrogen car. He says they emit a very loud screaming noise when you step on it. On the plus’s side you can fill the tank in under a minute.
I want to say that wouldn’t happen around me considering oil drilling around my house, but that’s what everyone always says about everything including mines.. I live next to a solar panel farm. The silent neighbor. I like it even though it’s probably a waste of space.
I was sitting on the edge of my seat watching the deep water horizon event unfold. I care about the environment. I think objectively for myself.
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Who stands to make a large profit from it.
And yes you can fill up with hydrogen quickly. If you can find somewhere to do it
TWilk117
Feeling the Heat
Ashful
Minister of Fire
What all of these threads highlight is that we cannot even agree on the facts. If you can't agree on the facts, it's impossible to debate or argue our various interpretations of them. With biased media falsely billed as "News" on both sides, both spewing out half-truths and distortions, one really has to do their own research to even begin to offer a sane perspective in any such argument.
Jan Pijpelink
Minister of Fire
Talking about shareholders. Biofuels (biodiesel) is big in Europe. Not in the US. In the year 2000, we had about 1900 biodiesel facilities in the US. Now less than 30. Reason? 86% of our congresspeople have shares in oil companies.
Of what?
Oil companies and their shareholders stand to make allot by blocking change as well.
Exactly the impact and conditions in lithium mines is made out to be way worse by one side. And all but ignored by the other. The truth is in the middle like most aspects of the issue
SpaceBus
Minister of Fire
There's a lot of bad information here. There were 221 vehicle fires reported in 2021 for the Netherlands. Three EVs amounts to just over 1% of vehicle fires. How many ICE vehicles have a 150k mile warranty? The environmental damage from fossil fuels is huge, and much worse for the planet than lithium. Each barrel of crude oil is responsible for 1,850 gallons of water.
What about being turned into a oil field, coal mine, ore mine, or fracking site? These things are already happening and would be reduced if EVs become the dominant vehicles. Fossil fuels used to mine lithium, or whatever, could be ZERO if there were more investment into carbon neutral energy and alternative propulsion for heavy equipment.
If the politicians you don't like are peddling lies, what makes you think you are getting good information from your own sources? Why couldn't you be the one being deceived?
SpaceBus
Minister of Fire
TWilk117
Feeling the Heat
TWilk117
Feeling the Heat
But what about the potential hazards of ev battery mining? Discarding batteries? Ev fires? I get your point. I think objectively as do my “sources.”
I take it all with grain of salt. I don’t pledge allegiance to any politician. They’re all the same. It’s a one party system now basically. I’m an independent.
TWilk117
Feeling the Heat
Share holders of mineral mining companies and the whole lot of everything associated with it..
just like everyone trying to scare you and tell you take your 117 shot. They are sponsored by or heavily invested in those companies.
Everything in life, everything, boils down to money and making money, just like the advertisements on this site.
The batteries are not going to just be thrown out. Lithium batteries aren't as easy to recycle but it absolutely can be done and will be.
As we have all said yes there are hazards from mining the materials used in current battery production. Which is part of the reason alternatives are being looked for. And what about the hazards of mining refining and transporting fossil fuels. Why do you choose to just ignore those.
Yes EVs can catch fire but they really don't at a higher rate than ice vehicles
So it's fine that the oil companies and shareholders make huge profits but not ok for others to? Why is that?
Why do so many people forget to put the spaces in to keep those level. I cringe so bad when I see those flying down the highway tilted at a 30 degree angle lol. They are super useful though especially for long trips and muuuuuuch easier to deal with than those toppers.
TWilk117
Feeling the Heat
I specifically said that I understand that fossil fuels have problems. I’m not ignoring that point. Why are you ignoring how destructive mining rare earth minerals is to our earths crust or the fact that they use children in disenfranchised countries to do so? I haven’t heard you comment on that.
I have repeatedly said there are issues with rare earth mining. We will see if Sweden can actually do it better as they claim. But regardless lithium isn't going to be the ultimate solution.
And honestly the claims of children being used are greatly exaggerated. Yes it does happen but not to the extent some outlets claim
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