OAK - My dealers perspective.

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smoke show said:
Then you have the folks like myself using Selkirk DT pulling the outside air in thru the outer chamber of the exhaust path.

So how does heated outside air affect heat output?

I'm pretty sure I don't care enuf. Only because my setup works and I know I'm not causing drafts.

Maybe Adam and Jamie will read this thread. :p

This makes more of a difference than you think! One of the reasons I also have Selkirk DT is the fact that it uses - waste - to preheat the incoming air. If the incoming air was restricted, then colder, denser air could be important - like in an automotive engine. Since our stoves are "offered" more air than they can consume (in most cases), using the waste heat to warm the intake air converts more of the heat produced from the pellets into the stove resulting in a small, but nevertheless increase in efficiency. There is a balance, however, since taking too much heat out of the exhaust could impede draft. In a "perfect world" you would want zero heat coming out of the top of the chimney even if it's not practical for our application. Food for thought.
 
j-takeman said:
defrob said:
DexterDay said:
Heating 0* outside air by a flame thats over 1,000* has little or NO effect. Than the 70* air it would burn inside your house. So my Flame is only 1,000* and yours is 1,070*.. I will take my 1,000* and heat my bedroom, kitchen, bathrooms. All the while you are filling those rooms with cold air, to heat it, then send it out your flue.

I will keep my OAK and the warm air that my stove heats. And keep it in my house. Cold air comes in my stove, not my bedroom, bathroom, or kitchen. Do what you want. But think about it....

Think about how hot a flame actually is..... Its over 1,000. That was just a # I threw out for differences. Either way your combustion air is somewhat preheated in any stove. Some designs are better than others.

This is a long debate as to whether to OAK or not. Much like to run vert or direct vent horizontal???

Or even better....If you have a Magic Heat???
hmmm...that is a damn good point

And a damn good post! Thinxs Mr. dex is an OAK believer! ;-)..............

Yep. Sure am... Trying to figure a out a good OAK set-up for the Woodstove in the basement and the Fahrenheit... I do NOT want to use flex pipe. I have been looking at 3" conduit or 3" exhaust pipe from a local muffler shop.. Then painting it black. I dont want anything to fight for air...
 
lbcynya said:
smoke show said:
Then you have the folks like myself using Selkirk DT pulling the outside air in thru the outer chamber of the exhaust path.

So how does heated outside air affect heat output?

I'm pretty sure I don't care enuf. Only because my setup works and I know I'm not causing drafts.

Maybe Adam and Jamie will read this thread. :p

This makes more of a difference than you think! One of the reasons I also have Selkirk DT is the fact that it uses - waste - to preheat the incoming air. If the incoming air was restricted, then colder, denser air could be important - like in an automotive engine. Since our stoves are "offered" more air than they can consume (in most cases), using the waste heat to warm the intake air converts more of the heat produced from the pellets into the stove resulting in a small, but nevertheless increase in efficiency. There is a balance, however, since taking too much heat out of the exhaust could impede draft. In a "perfect world" you would want zero heat coming out of the top of the chimney even if it's not practical for our application. Food for thought.

In the case of a wood burner getting the vent temperature to low causes other than just draft issues, but in general you are correct the goal is to have no heat coming out of the flue at all, this is almost the case with condensing burners.

In life you have choices burning with an OAK increases the efficiency of the stove and eliminates a lot of possible bad burn situations. It also reduces air infiltration which in most buildings is the single largest heat loss source.

So do whatever you want folks.
 
j-takeman said:
....I did that last season. OAK off heat with Okies was 258ºF---OAK on heat was 264ºF. ONLY thing I changed is OAK on-OAK off, Nothing else. A fella said that the temps could flux on their own. So I did it 10 times, these numbers are the average! I think I posted it somewhere?????

~Just though exhaust temps and burnpot temp would ice it for them!

I knew I could count on 'ya bud. I think that confirms it for me.

Myth: Cold OAK air makes colder house......BUSTED!
 
smoke show said:
Then you have the folks like myself using Selkirk DT pulling the outside air in thru the outer chamber of the exhaust path.

So how does heated outside air affect heat output?

I'm pretty sure I don't care enuf. Only because my setup works and I know I'm not causing drafts.

Maybe Adam and Jamie will read this thread. :p

Send them an email, They never answer mine! :red:

I thinxs it will still be densley charged air. Could be wrong and I often assume. But as fast as the air is being sucked in, I wonder how much it actually getting warmed. Neat set ups for sure and only one hole in the head- er um house! oops!

Smoke Show= Jamie hikneyman?
 
Its Hyneman not Hikneyman.

Somehow I don't think that topic would do good for the ratings.

Oh yea would you stop assuming. :bug:
 
smoke show said:
Its Hyneman not Hikneyman.

Somehow I don't think that topic would do good for the ratings.

Oh yea would you stop assuming. :bug:

Assuming.... Got a lot of people nowhere fast. Including me... LOL..

No Ass -U-ME ing anymore..LOL
 
Obviously there are a lot passionate opinions about this subject and I do believe a lot of your responses however I really dont understand the inner workings of a pellet stove. If I were to install an OAK the connection for the OAK just gets connected to the rear lower panel not directly into the firebox. Right next to that connection is the convection fan. Where is this cold air going to go. What will the convection fan do to this air is basically what I am asking.
 
Last thing I will note on the subject is...... Air will take the path of least resistance... Ponder on that one too. Quad has a sorry system. BUT, it works better than the windows in your Bedroom. IMHO.
 
gerryger said:
Obviously there are a lot passionate opinions about this subject and I do believe a lot of your responses however I really dont understand the inner workings of a pellet stove. If I were to install an OAK the connection for the OAK just gets connected to the rear lower panel not directly into the firebox. Right next to that connection is the convection fan. Where is this cold air going to go. What will the convection fan do to this air is basically what I am asking.

With your stove, obviously there isn't a reason to connect it.....a lot of that cold air is going to find it's way into your home. Poor engineering, IMO.
 
gerryger said:
Obviously there are a lot passionate opinions about this subject and I do believe a lot of your responses however I really dont understand the inner workings of a pellet stove. If I were to install an OAK the connection for the OAK just gets connected to the rear lower panel not directly into the firebox. Right next to that connection is the convection fan. Where is this cold air going to go. What will the convection fan do to this air is basically what I am asking.

Quad requires adapters to properly attach their OAKs the last I knew.

There are pictures on the forum of some of them (and there is also one where someone did the installation wrong they put it on the back of the stove).

You might want to take a look.
 
SmokeyTheBear said:
gerryger said:
Obviously there are a lot passionate opinions about this subject and I do believe a lot of your responses however I really dont understand the inner workings of a pellet stove. If I were to install an OAK the connection for the OAK just gets connected to the rear lower panel not directly into the firebox. Right next to that connection is the convection fan. Where is this cold air going to go. What will the convection fan do to this air is basically what I am asking.

Quad requires adapters to properly attach their OAKs the last I knew.

There are pictures on the forum of some of them (and there is also one where someone did the installation wrong they put it on the back of the stove).

You might want to take a look.

Yep. Recent thread..

Also. If you seal the brackets/collars, plenums, etc. They work pretty well... OK... Last post.


Promise..............
 
imacman said:
gerryger said:
Obviously there are a lot passionate opinions about this subject and I do believe a lot of your responses however I really dont understand the inner workings of a pellet stove. If I were to install an OAK the connection for the OAK just gets connected to the rear lower panel not directly into the firebox. Right next to that connection is the convection fan. Where is this cold air going to go. What will the convection fan do to this air is basically what I am asking.

With your stove, obviously there isn't a reason to connect it.....a lot of that cold air is going to find it's way into your home. Poor engineering, IMO.

Thats what I thought. Maybe thats why the dealer didn't recommend it.
 
gerryger said:
imacman said:
gerryger said:
Obviously there are a lot passionate opinions about this subject and I do believe a lot of your responses however I really dont understand the inner workings of a pellet stove. If I were to install an OAK the connection for the OAK just gets connected to the rear lower panel not directly into the firebox. Right next to that connection is the convection fan. Where is this cold air going to go. What will the convection fan do to this air is basically what I am asking.

With your stove, obviously there isn't a reason to connect it.....a lot of that cold air is going to find it's way into your home. Poor engineering, IMO.

Thats what I thought. Maybe thats why the dealer didn't recommend it.

Not so fast there Pete, Quads require adapters to do the job, the OAK is not to be attached in the manner which the OP is thinking.
 
I have pictures in my owners manual that show a collar coming off the rear panel which a 2 inch flex duct gets connected to it. I will post a picture of it when I get a chance.
 
aw, dex. can i draw you back in for one more reply?

is the ps50 set up the same way as the quad? or is it better fit for the oak?
just wondering since a lot of the guts are the same.
getting our ps50 installed thursday and never knew there could be a potential problem.
it would be nice to know what to check for on the install to be sure it get's done right.
 
gerryger said:
I have pictures in my owners manual that show a collar coming off the rear panel which a 2 inch flex duct gets connected to it. I will post a picture of it when I get a chance.

My Lennox Montage outside air inlet does not connect directly to the combustion chamber either. Hence, I'm not going to bother with an oak. The way I see it, with our two dogs going in and out the front door all day long, I'm letting in more cold air than my stove will be pulling in anyway. ;)
 
I ended up taking the oak off my stove because last winter when it was -10 or more for a week at night I tried it both ways and in the end my stove gave me more heat when I had the oak closed down. I know the stove was drawing the air from cracks in the house but the hubby and I did not notice the house feeling drafty. I would like to get the pellet pipe with the oak outer ring so it gets heated by the exhaust.
A pellet stove is not a carburetor they are both made to do different things. A carburetor makes explosions heat is something you don't want. They like cold because cold air is more dense so more air per cubic inch increasing the air to fuel making a bigger bang making more power. A pellet stove burns steady making heat so extreme cold air coming into the stove cools the stove making it take longer to warm up and using more fuel to heat the stove up.
A quick way to test is while it is warm out now measure the time it takes for your stove to kick the room fan on from when the stove starts then this winter pick a nice cold night and measure the time again.
Anyways this is just my idea on the matter and for the record I am not a car or HVAC specialist but I did work 7 years repairing machines and learned that things on paper don't add up in real life.
 
Pictures Of The Kit And Installation For Santa Fe
 

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Meneillys said:
I ended up taking the oak off my stove because last winter when it was -10 or more for a week at night I tried it both ways and in the end my stove gave me more heat when I had the oak closed down. I know the stove was drawing the air from cracks in the house but the hubby and I did not notice the house feeling drafty. I would like to get the pellet pipe with the oak outer ring so it gets heated by the exhaust.
A pellet stove is not a carburetor they are both made to do different things. A carburetor makes explosions heat is something you don't want. They like cold because cold air is more dense so more air per cubic inch increasing the air to fuel making a bigger bang making more power. A pellet stove burns steady making heat so extreme cold air coming into the stove cools the stove making it take longer to warm up and using more fuel to heat the stove up.
A quick way to test is while it is warm out now measure the time it takes for your stove to kick the room fan on from when the stove starts then this winter pick a nice cold night and measure the time again.
Anyways this is just my idea on the matter and for the record I am not a car or HVAC specialist but I did work 7 years repairing machines and learned that things on paper don't add up in real life.

People keep saying things on paper do not add up in real life. Sorry to say Physics is based on facts. You can say they do not add up but they do. If your not seeing it, that doesn't make you r right it simply means your experiment is either incorrect or your equipment is not put together correctly.

If the equipment is correct. That is your pipes are hooked up right, your stove is working right then I promise you that it is always more efficient to burn outside air in the combustion chamber than it is to heat the are first for comfort in the home then burn it anyway in the same process and same chamber. Under pure scientific conditions in a fully insulated room, the absolute best you can do is having the same efficiency. Now add in for comfort and add in for trying to keep that room the same temp and you MUST be less efficient. It can not be any other way. If you doubt me take any arguement to the extreme say 100 below. Now you have a pellet stove that is pulling about 10 cubic feet per minute of air. That is a 10 X 10 room every hour and a half that you get to heat up from -100 to 70.. That is needed for combustion and yes your stove will burn with 100 degree below zero air. That air can either come directly from a pipe outside to the combustion chamber or from your bedroom window across your bedroom down the stairs warming all the way and into the stoves combustion chamber and out the vent. Which one will force you to add more pellets and increase the burn rate. I promise you it is when you or your significant other complains.



Note: a carburetor doesn't make explosions is mixes fuel and air to be delivered to a chaimber that turns heat from a burning of fuel into kenetic energy. Denser, cooler air has more O2 and that creates a hotter burn be it Gasoline or wood.

You do what you want, but ME I'm sticking withthe Oak as my air source.
 
Trickyrick said:
Meneillys said:
I ended up taking the oak off my stove because last winter when it was -10 or more for a week at night I tried it both ways and in the end my stove gave me more heat when I had the oak closed down. I know the stove was drawing the air from cracks in the house but the hubby and I did not notice the house feeling drafty. I would like to get the pellet pipe with the oak outer ring so it gets heated by the exhaust.
A pellet stove is not a carburetor they are both made to do different things. A carburetor makes explosions heat is something you don't want. They like cold because cold air is more dense so more air per cubic inch increasing the air to fuel making a bigger bang making more power. A pellet stove burns steady making heat so extreme cold air coming into the stove cools the stove making it take longer to warm up and using more fuel to heat the stove up.
A quick way to test is while it is warm out now measure the time it takes for your stove to kick the room fan on from when the stove starts then this winter pick a nice cold night and measure the time again.
Anyways this is just my idea on the matter and for the record I am not a car or HVAC specialist but I did work 7 years repairing machines and learned that things on paper don't add up in real life.

People keep saying things on paper do not add up in real life. Sorry to say Physics is based on facts. You can say they do not add up but they do. If your not seeing it, that doesn't make you r right it simply means your experiment is either incorrect or your equipment is not put together correctly.

If the equipment is correct. That is your pipes are hooked up right, your stove is working right then I promise you that it is always more efficient to burn outside air in the combustion chamber than it is to heat the are first for comfort in the home then burn it anyway in the same process and same chamber. Under pure scientific conditions in a fully insulated room, the absolute best you can do is having the same efficiency. Now add in for comfort and add in for trying to keep that room the same temp and you MUST be less efficient. It can not be any other way. If you doubt me take any arguement to the extreme say 100 below. Now you have a pellet stove that is pulling about 10 cubic feet per minute of air. That is a 10 X 10 room every hour and a half that you get to heat up from -100 to 70.. That is needed for combustion and yes your stove will burn with 100 degree below zero air. That air can either come directly from a pipe outside to the combustion chamber or from your bedroom window across your bedroom down the stairs warming all the way and into the stoves combustion chamber and out the vent. Which one will force you to add more pellets and increase the burn rate. I promise you it is when you or your significant other complains.



Note: a carburetor doesn't make explosions is mixes fuel and air to be delivered to a chaimber that turns heat from a burning of fuel into kenetic energy. Denser, cooler air has more O2 and that creates a hotter burn be it Gasoline or wood.

You do what you want, but ME I'm sticking withthe Oak as my air source.

Every one has there opinion. The world was flat once! and we were the center on the universe. I live no oak unless it is preheated by the vent pipe.
 
The hotter the air going into the burn pot the better. Combustion is always more complete the hotter the air as long as a proper mixture is maintained. Mixture is adjustable on your stove. Your stove is not a car engine with fixed volume relationship so arguments about cold air equalling better performance do not apply to your pellet stove.

The OAK argument is sort of mundane. If you do some research you will find most stoves have a large hole in the intake somewhere after the damper that pulls in air from inside the house. I know Harman is exception to this (Kudos to them).

Code requires OAKS for many installations (such as mobile homes) simply because of the air-tight nature of here-said homes.

It's not a necessary addition to install one but it's a good idea for reasons listed above such as more consistent performance and it reduces/eliminates the chance of smoke coming into the house if your power happens to out.


The best set-up, IMO is the sel-kirk direct-temp. You get your combustion air heated for free using the waste heat going out the venting system.

TOTAL WIN!
 
St_Earl said:
aw, dex. can i draw you back in for one more reply?

is the ps50 set up the same way as the quad? or is it better fit for the oak?
just wondering since a lot of the guts are the same.
getting our ps50 installed thursday and never knew there could be a potential problem.
it would be nice to know what to check for on the install to be sure it get's done right.

Page 38 of the manual shows a hole on the back of the unit and it using the same exact collar as my stove. Then if you look at the expanded view (from here its a guess) there is an angled plate that sends the air under the PS -series.. Which is much like the design of mine..

Although........... If not sealed (which it makes no mark of this) up, like I have done mine. When you turn the stove off, cold air could come from the stove. Cant really tell you from looking at the expanded parts. As to whether it would be easy or hard to seal.

I run the Quad 24/7 on Low for the most part. So its never a problem having cold air infiltrate the stove and leak out.. Only running part time out, but because I have it sealed up. There is no drafts like when I first installed it around the base..

A little high temp silicone can fix a lot of this problem.. All depends on how handy you are? Also whether you are going to try and burn 24/7 on a lower setting. If so then sealing is not as important (although I did anyway)..

I am no physics major, engineer, nor do I have a Phd. But I do understand where the stove gets its air from without an OAK.. Air will take the path of least resistance.

Everyone has the reasons of doing or not doing... I can only tell you the reasons I did. This will long be a standing debate. I look at it this way....

If you are really gonna have a good chance at heating your home 100% with just one little space heater. You better give it Every little advantage possible..

2 cents...
 
smoke show said:
Its Hyneman not Hikneyman.

Somehow I don't think that topic would do good for the ratings.

Oh yea would you stop assuming. :bug:

Struck the Hyneman nerve? So it is true then? :cheese:

I'm a "hy' nee' man" myself! ;-)
 
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